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2014 Sox Catching Tandem?
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Post by ikonos on Jul 17, 2013 8:05:23 GMT -5
I have not seen much of a discussion on this forum about the catching duo for 2014. Before Ross got hurt i thought it might be Ross/Lavarnway if they let Salty walk but given his concussion issues this year I am not sure they will bet on that duo. Does this increase the chance of Redsox signing Salty with Lavarnway going back to AAA?
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Post by elguapo on Jul 17, 2013 8:50:03 GMT -5
I'm okay with Ross catching with Lavarnway & Butler competing for backup, plus Vazquez at AAA. Unless there's a vet who's a good fit on a short deal and you trade one of the above. Sox need to figure out this year what they have in Lavarnway (I always think of another Sox 6th rounder, Todd Pratt).
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Post by okin15 on Jul 17, 2013 9:16:36 GMT -5
It's nice to have a platoon at C, and Salty gives you that. So would Swihart if he ever gets to the majors (not a knock, just noting that he's a few years away.)
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jul 17, 2013 9:20:18 GMT -5
Sign Salty for 3 years. Then Swihart would replace him.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 17, 2013 9:59:59 GMT -5
Lavarnway unfortunately has not yet proven that he can produce offensively at the major league level. I'm sure the Sox FO will be watching him closely as long as Ross is still out.
Funnily enough, looking at 2011-2013, Ross has had better production than Salty (106 wRC+ vs 99 wRC+), though there is no way to know whether he could produce just as well if he were to play on a more regular basis.
Nevertheless, Ross is probably a good enough option (assuming he recovers fully) that the Sox won't be forced to overpay for Salty. I see no reason why they would not re-sign Salty if the price is reasonable, but ultimately the market may dictate what happens to some extent.
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Post by honkbal on Jul 17, 2013 10:11:20 GMT -5
Who's ready for an exciting answer!
If you can sing McCann at your price yo do that. If you can't sign McCann, but you can sign Salty for your price you do that. If neither player will sign for what you think they're worth, but Lavarnway looks like he's adjusted to the majors, you go with him. If it looks like Lavarnway won't adjust? Ummm... Jose Molina's corpse? A.J. Pierzynski? Carlos Ruiz on a "Melky" contract? ...Dioner Navarro?
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jul 17, 2013 10:11:29 GMT -5
Sign Salty for 3 years. Then Swihart would replace him. Great topic. Really important going forward, into next year, and the future. I've come to actually believe for the right price and number of years that Salty should be brought back. For me, this is a 180. Now it is possible he will "tank" once again during the last 3rd of the season, and if he does I may feel differently. Lavarnway has been decent, but the power has never shown up and that was his best quality. I'd keep all 3, at least, until Vasquez shows he is a good possibility. I'd try to sign Salty for 2 years and over pay slightly if necessary. I'm hoping Swihart will be ready to team up with Vasquez in 2016. Swihart is one of my 3 favorite prospects and I have great hopes for him as a very solid offensive catcher. And now we have Jonathan Denney coming!!
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Post by jmei on Jul 17, 2013 10:16:18 GMT -5
Going into the season with just Ross, Lavarnway, and Butler as MLB-ready options would worry me a bit (I don't count Vazquez in that category; he could probably use another year at AAA in 2014 to work on his bat). Ross, in particular, is a major risk considering how long concussion issues can linger.
If Saltalamacchia ends the season with similar or better numbers than he has now (.266/.341/.453, maybe even a tic more power), I might consider offering him the $14m QO. Having him back on a one-year deal at that salary is a clear overpay, but if Ross' concussion issues are still up in the air, I'd be willing to risk overpaying Saltalamacchia for one year of his prime in return for getting a pick if he signs elsewhere.
It's also actually a fairly rich crop of free agent catchers, with Brian McCann, Carloz Ruiz, A.J. Pierzynski, and Saltalamacchia headlining and a deep crop of backups (Kurt Suzuki, Jose Molina, Miguel Olivio, etc). If McCann's market is softer than expected, I wouldn't mind the Red Sox getting involved, but I have a feeling he'll get 4+ years at a $12m+ AAV (plus a pick), which is too rich for my blood. Ruiz or Pierzynski are solid one-year stopgap options, though.
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Post by nysoxfan on Jul 17, 2013 10:17:12 GMT -5
If Salty walks, what would the expected compensation be? Wouldn/t/shouldn't that make the team more inclined to go with Ross and whatever depth option makes most sense in platoon (likely as said, Lavarnway with Vazquez behind in AAA)?
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 17, 2013 10:25:39 GMT -5
Butler has got to be a strong DFA candidate with 4-5 people needing to be added and him not adding anything really, other than depth at any level. The "feel good" story was great for him about getting this far as an UDFA might have been great for awhile, but Vazquez will be at Pawtucket by late next year probably and neither is going to ever be known as a hitter, regardless of how far they go and Vazquez is already leaps and bounds better defensively.
The team could always sign some other floating around FA even and get pretty much the same thing if they needed an emergency catcher, the roster spot (as of the winter) will probably just be too valuable and hindsight even now proves it was over the last winter to have used on him.
I still think giving Salty even 1Y at 6-8m is too much for what he produces, especially compared for the negative factor he gives on defense. This guy is basically Varitek his last 2 years, without the knowledge behind the plate.. Yet some want to give him a multi year deal?
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 17, 2013 10:32:41 GMT -5
If Saltalamacchia ends the season with similar or better numbers than he has now (.266/.341/.453, maybe even a tic more power), I might consider offering him the $14m QO. He has a .392 BABIP and the second highest rate of swings and misses in the majors among players with 200+ plate appearances (Pedro Alvarez has the highest). Regression is coming, and if it doesn't come this year, someone is going to be on the hook for way too much money for him next year. If the Red Sox have space in the budget he's not a disastrous player on a one-year deal, but without a solid backup in place they could end up in a bad situation. If Ross were healthy, I'd say that Salty was the perfect sell-high candidate, but the Sox are in the race and there's no other really reasonable option.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 17, 2013 10:38:05 GMT -5
Who's ready for an exciting answer! If you can sing McCann at your price yo do that.If you can't sign McCann, but you can sign Salty for your price you do that.If neither player will sign for what you think they're worth, but Lavarnway looks like he's adjusted to the majors, you go with him. If it looks like Lavarnway won't adjust? Ummm... Jose Molina's corpse? A.J. Pierzynski? Carlos Ruiz on a "Melky" contract? ...Dioner Navarro? I am OK with those two. I think Butler or Vasquez next year give you what Ross gives you - great defense, below average offense. I think Butler gets traded at the deadline. And I contend Ross will not be the same after having 2 concussions so close together. I know he has another year and a million plus coming to him but he should strongly consider retiring. Can't get a read on Lavarnway yet, but Farrell seem to not like him as he's been starting Salty against some lefties since the switch was made. I'd love it if he could give us .350 OBP with some pop. Bottom line: If you get McCann you can transition him to 1st/DH after year 2 of the deal. If McCann is cost-prohibitive Salty on a 3-year deal lets you use a stop gap (Vasquez) as your back-up catcher next year and you can work in Swihart over the last 2-1.5 years of the deal.
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Post by elguapo on Jul 17, 2013 10:51:51 GMT -5
Butler has got to be a strong DFA candidate with 4-5 people needing to be added and him not adding anything really, other than depth at any level. I don't really see a roster crunch looming, and given that they have 5 catchers on the 40-man this year (which does seem excessive) I expect they wouldn't go below 4 next year. (I can't imagine having 5 again, either.) Besides, Butler is good defensively and has put up a consistent ~.750 OPS in the high minors which suggests he would be adequate at the plate in the majors, and likely better overall than that freely available replacement you reference.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 17, 2013 12:18:23 GMT -5
Butler has got to be a strong DFA candidate with 4-5 people needing to be added and him not adding anything really, other than depth at any level. I don't really see a roster crunch looming, and given that they have 5 catchers on the 40-man this year (which does seem excessive) I expect they wouldn't go below 4 next year. (I can't imagine having 5 again, either.) Besides, Butler is good defensively and has put up a consistent ~.750 OPS in the high minors which suggests he would be adequate at the plate in the majors, and likely better overall than that freely available replacement you reference. Reason, was there is generally a John Baker type floating around the DFA/in limbo any way and protecting someone like Butler is just not worth it. Vazquez will have to be protected come winter 2014/15 regardless and if emergency arose? They could stick him on the 40 man and use him earlier next year anyway. Now.. All that keys on if they decide by some chance to keep ppl like Hassan, extra floater reliever like De La Cruz, Ruiz etc.. The Sox FO always keeps a surprise "body" on the roster it seems.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 19, 2013 7:43:44 GMT -5
The Sox have PLENTY of budget room for 2014 to sign Salty or McCann. I think they'll give a QO to Salty and if he refuses, go hard after McCann.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 19, 2013 7:51:11 GMT -5
The Sox have PLENTY of budget room for 2014 to sign Salty or McCann. I think they'll give a QO to Salty and if he refuses, go hard after McCann. I'm with ya JimEd. I'd sign McCann if he's reasonable. If not, the QO to Salty probably ensure a return which I can live with. In addition to financial flexibility this year. We lose; Drew, Ellsbury, Napoli, Salty and Hanrahan. Really just need a 1b and c. We have cheap in-house replacements in CF and at shortstop. Who knows about closer. There aren't many good ones out there. Prob bring Bailey back for another go round. Salty's winning me over a little. Still swings and misses. But, if you watch MLB baseball, that can be said about half of the players in the league. Will never be a gold glover, but the catching end of his game seems to have improved; calling a game, throwing and receiving. He's played a lot of baseball this year. Not begging for time off either.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jul 19, 2013 8:08:48 GMT -5
There is no way, as suggested above, that Salty signs for one year. A young improving catcher who can switch hit and hit for power will command at least a 3 yr. pact. I give him a Q.O. If he agrees, we have to swallow a 13+ mil deal for one year. If not, we have a draft pick, and can sign McCann and surrender one.
I'd rather have Salty until Swihart or Denney is ready than go the McCann route.
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Post by ramireja on Jul 19, 2013 9:27:05 GMT -5
Also, for those wondering if Salty's current numbers this year are legit....keep in mind he has a .780 OPS if the first half over the last 3 years vs a .687 OPS in the second half. Let's hope his dropoff isn't as drastic this year, but be aware of his past tendencies.
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Post by bluechip on Jul 19, 2013 10:06:58 GMT -5
The Sox have PLENTY of budget room for 2014 to sign Salty or McCann. I think they'll give a QO to Salty and if he refuses, go hard after McCann. I think this. A one year contract for Salty at the QO rate is not a terrible deal for the Red Sox. If another team wants to surrender a first round pick for him, great.
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Post by dfwsox on Jul 19, 2013 10:10:46 GMT -5
I'm pulling for Vazquez a bit. Have not seen him a ton but love the defense that I have seen to date and has some pop in the bat. Hopfull that the hit tool gets more consistent.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jul 19, 2013 11:00:24 GMT -5
Isn't the Vasquez argument kind of like the Iglesias argument? Insane defense and a mediocre bat. If he can hit .240 than he is my backup for the foreseeable future.
I like the idea of giving a QO to Salty because it will force him to take a 1-year deal, because it is really difficult to sign elsewhere if you have the 1st-round-pick baggage on you, if he accepts and than we can figure out where we are next year and how ready Denny, Vasquez, and Swihart are. Also to the person who brought up the high BABIP for Salty: He swings-and-misses and strikes out a lot, but when he makes contact he hits everything hard so it's not that shocking; it's not Iglesias-esque with the infield hits and soft grounders that get through the infield.
Not in favor of the McCann route because free agency is not a way to build your team successfully, it is how you add complementary pieces to your core of homegrown talent. The McCann way also sets up a logjam in the future with the young talent coming up and if McCann hits a wall in year 3 of a 5-year deal at 12+ mil a year it will be very difficult to move him without giving up a damn good prospect or eating a ton of money. If it were a 1-2 year deal at 18 mil a year I might think about it but still it's a first-round pick for a great stopgap option. People always forget when stars hit the market that for every core piece that is bought there are 15 Josh Hamiltons that weigh the team down.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 19, 2013 12:20:36 GMT -5
1-15 is a bit tough of a ratio, no? (just joshing; I know you're hyperbolizing)
Also, people continually think that hard hit balls = high BABIP however, guys with high flyball ratios, don't actually have that, while MLB players with lots of ground balls do indeed have good BABIP's because they tend to be fast and/or quick out of the box. Just think about how your office softball team is set up... a bunch of GB hitters early with some big boppers... who seem to make an out or hit a HR each time up.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 19, 2013 12:35:57 GMT -5
No chance the Sox give McCann more than a 3 year deal so you don't have to worry about that. No chance it costs 18M per year to sign him either.
The mid-level contracts seem to be trending downwards. I highly doubt McCann is going to command that much money on the market. Bourn got 4/48 last year as a top notch defensive cf with some skills hitting. Braves probably qualify McCann which will drive his price waaaaay down. Then it's about do you want to sacrifice a pick and lower your bonus pool for him.
He's a complimentary piece like Vic and Nap were.
I don't see how he creates a log-jam. They don't have any top notch starting caliber talent at catcher that's knocking on the door.
I'd have to think Salty jumps on the qualifying offer. If not, he's getting bad advice or his agent knows something the rest of us don't. Can't see a situation where a team is trying to give up a 1st rd pick and sign Salty to a long-term deal that averages over 8 per, let alone more than that.
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Post by ikonos on Jul 19, 2013 12:43:25 GMT -5
Unless you are signed by your own franchise like Mauer or Posey when was the last time a catcher got a 5 year deal as a FA? Beyond the QO's I think McCann might get a 4yr offer and Salty a 3yr offer as a FA. I doubt either one will get a 5 or more year deal.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jul 19, 2013 12:45:09 GMT -5
Just from watching him it seems like all the balls that he hits (when he hits them) are topspin liners/grounders or deep fly balls in the gaps, which are harder to field, which would translate to a higher BABIP than most, I do expect some drop-off but not to the point where he is going to be a detriment to the team. The bottom line is that he is a #5 hitter when he is hot and a #7 or 8 hitter when he isn't with some pop and he has his flaws and it is known throughout MLB who he is and it's okay. He isn't a franchise cornerstone but he still will give you what he gives you and contribute to the team while the stars are growing in the farm.
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