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2014 Non-Red Sox MLB thread
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Post by semperfisox on Feb 15, 2014 14:08:12 GMT -5
I think the Dodgers did a disservice to Puig by having him skip AAA. /random thought.
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Post by templeusox on Feb 15, 2014 17:46:39 GMT -5
I think the Dodgers did a disservice to Puig by having him skip AAA. /random thought. Are you talking about 5 WAR player (in just over 100 games) Yasiel Puig or a different Yasiel Puig? He was great last season. You don't keep players like that in the minors so they can learn how to hit the cut-off man.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 17, 2014 10:14:24 GMT -5
I don't think the Dodgers find him a disservice, but I seriously question how good he'll be. This game had a lot to do with making adjustments. The league adjusted to Puig and I don't know if he has the ability to adjust back. Talent is immense so he has a good chance, I just seriously question him.
He's somewhat of a free swinger and his contact rates are piss poor. Hitters can be successful free swingers like Vlad Guerrero, but Vladdy Daddy had much better contact rates then Puig. I think Puig may be a major disappointment, especially this season. It's one thing to come out and take the league by surprise and it's another to do it after the book is out.
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Post by semperfisox on Feb 17, 2014 12:52:45 GMT -5
I think the Dodgers did a disservice to Puig by having him skip AAA. /random thought. Are you talking about 5 WAR player (in just over 100 games) Yasiel Puig or a different Yasiel Puig? He was great last season. You don't keep players like that in the minors so they can learn how to hit the cut-off man. His plate recognition was poor for a starting RF. He looked foolish on advanced pitches.
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Post by semperfisox on Feb 17, 2014 12:53:43 GMT -5
I don't think the Dodgers find him a disservice, but I seriously question how good he'll be. This game had a lot to do with making adjustments. The league adjusted to Puig and I don't know if he has the ability to adjust back. Talent is immense so he has a good chance, I just seriously question him. He's somewhat of a free swinger and his contact rates are piss poor. Hitters can be successful free swingers like Vlad Guerrero, but Vladdy Daddy had much better contact rates then Puig. I think Puig may be a major disappointment, especially this season. It's one thing to come out and take the league by surprise and it's another to do it after the book is out. That's why I think he should have went to AAA instead of rushing him.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Feb 17, 2014 13:00:39 GMT -5
I don't think the Dodgers find him a disservice, but I seriously question how good he'll be. This game had a lot to do with making adjustments. The league adjusted to Puig and I don't know if he has the ability to adjust back. Talent is immense so he has a good chance, I just seriously question him. He's somewhat of a free swinger and his contact rates are piss poor. Hitters can be successful free swingers like Vlad Guerrero, but Vladdy Daddy had much better contact rates then Puig. I think Puig may be a major disappointment, especially this season. It's one thing to come out and take the league by surprise and it's another to do it after the book is out. That's why I think he should have went to AAA instead of rushing him. And how would AAA have helped him more than learning in the majors? It's not like he played badly in the majors, he played fantastically and carried the Dodgers. Why could he learn that in AAA, and not in the majors?
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 17, 2014 13:32:10 GMT -5
Lets start it off with this amazing photo BREAKING: Raccoon watches Yankees spring-training workouts /photo/1 can it play third?>
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Post by ramireja on Feb 17, 2014 13:32:58 GMT -5
Are you talking about 5 WAR player (in just over 100 games) Yasiel Puig or a different Yasiel Puig? He was great last season. You don't keep players like that in the minors so they can learn how to hit the cut-off man. His plate recognition was poor for a starting RF. He looked foolish on advanced pitches. Except for when things like this happened
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 17, 2014 13:39:23 GMT -5
Keeping Puig in Triple-A because his recognition of the curve could be better would be like keeping Bogaerts in the minors because he could be a better defensive shortstop. Both players do so many other things at a high level that it makes sense to let them work out their weaknesses in the majors. And maybe they never will - and maybe it won't even matter that they never will. Even Hall of Famers have flaws in their game.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Feb 17, 2014 14:16:25 GMT -5
Are you talking about 5 WAR player (in just over 100 games) Yasiel Puig or a different Yasiel Puig? He was great last season. You don't keep players like that in the minors so they can learn how to hit the cut-off man. His plate recognition was poor for a starting RF. He looked foolish on advanced pitches. Yasiel Puig was a 22 year old in his first season of professional baseball and you are shocked that he had poor pitch recognition skills? His Babip was unsustainably high last season (.383) but beyond that there really is not anything to get to worried about in his statistical profile walk rate above 8%, k rate in the low 20's, an ISO over .200. He does have a high O-Swing% of 38.9% but of those pitches he made contact 53% of the time. That can be improved upon.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 17, 2014 16:49:05 GMT -5
Not everyone is or has to be a high walk low strikeout guy. To me a low walk moderate strikeout guy with the other tools he has is a very good player. He is also very young and in an adaptive phase to his game and the game here.
A guy capable of putting a 5 war does not need to be wasted in aaa making adjustments.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 17, 2014 16:52:40 GMT -5
Not everyone is or has to be a high walk low strikeout guy. To me a low walk moderate strikeout guy with the other tools he has is a very good player. He is also very young and in an adaptive phase to his game and the game here. A guy capable of putting a 5 war does not need to be wasted in aaa making adjustments. Let's put it this way. He's a huge sophomore slump candidate. I don't see a reason why he can't make adjustments in the majors. But his swing/miss % along with his plate discipline is a pretty big cause for concern. Pitchers are just going to keep the ball away from him and it'll be up to him to not swing at those pitches. I don't think he's Vlad.
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Post by jmei on Feb 17, 2014 17:56:20 GMT -5
For a guy with alleged major plate discipline issues, Puig's walk (8.3%) and strikeout rates (22.5%) were roughly league-average last year (7.9%, 19.9%). Yes, his swinging strike and contact percentages were well below-average, but it's pretty unfair to think that Puig is incapable of making his own adjustments. After all, he's only 23 and coming off his first full season in the states. I mean, does this guy sound like someone with work ethic problems? Let's cut to the chase: are we having this discussion if he has a less "flashy" persona? I mean, Freddie Freeman had a .371 BABIP last year and career walk/strikeout rates not too dissimilar from Puig's, but not too many folks are hating on his new extension. Will Middlebrooks' 2012 was pretty unsustainable, but folks around here were penciling him in as a cornerstone for the next half-decade. Puig is a young player with plenty of flaws to work on (although, contrary to popular belief, secondary pitches are not really his problem), but also plenty of things he does really, really well. He can regress a lot and still be an elite player-- remember, his rWAR/600 PAs was a whopping 6.9 last year. For what it's worth, Steamer projects him for 4.9 wins, and Oliver for 4.7 next year.
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Post by jchang on Feb 17, 2014 18:28:58 GMT -5
Another player rushed through the minors with "plate issues" is Adrian Beltre (MLB at age 19). Strangely, his walk rate shows no particular trend over 16 years (6.7%) other than the 10% in years 2 and 3. More impressive is that his BA has actually been up that last 4 years other than the year 7 anomaly. I do not know is Beltre has poor pitch recognition or just does not care. In any event, he is liable to swing at a pitch far out of the strike zone as well as get a hit on said pitch. Could this have been corrected with more time in the minor?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 17, 2014 22:03:44 GMT -5
I moved the Puig discussion from the International Signings thread into here.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 18, 2014 10:26:28 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 18, 2014 10:40:40 GMT -5
So soon we forget the post-departure smear campaigns against Terry Francona, Theo Epstein, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra... who am I forgetting? We're in a glass house on this one.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 18, 2014 10:56:35 GMT -5
So soon we forget the post-departure smear campaigns against Terry Francona, Theo Epstein, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra... who am I forgetting? We're in a glass house on this one. Yeah I don't like that either.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 18, 2014 11:32:10 GMT -5
Robinson Cano games played, starting in '13 and working back: 160, 161, 159, 160, 161, 159, 160, 122, 132. But you know, that's easy to do as a second baseman and it doesn't help the team much. Running hard down the first base line on meaningless plays is what really matters. I honestly think that hustle, at least as it's usually defined by the baseball media, is one of the most overrated aspects of a player. Yeah, I want to see players give their all when it matters. But when a guy is diving headfirst on the basepaths in a seven run ballgame, or insists on playing through an injury that's clearly hurting his performance? That's just stupid and it's not something I find particularly admirable.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 18, 2014 11:39:42 GMT -5
So soon we forget the post-departure smear campaigns against Terry Francona, Theo Epstein, Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez, Nomar Garciaparra... who am I forgetting? We're in a glass house on this one. "We're"? Dude, I didn't write those stories, nor did I like seeing them come out.
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Post by jmei on Feb 18, 2014 17:26:14 GMT -5
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Post by ray88h66 on Feb 18, 2014 21:59:05 GMT -5
I don't like teams calling out people after they leave. To be fair to the Yanks Cano was called out several times while he played for them for lack of hustle. I think the Red Sox record is much worse in recent years. Tito as exhibit A.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 19, 2014 10:40:39 GMT -5
Great reporting, thanks for the link. It isn't easy having your affiliates in the PCL and the Cal league, but it does seem like the Angels have started to put a better system in place. A lot of work. Interesting that they focus on Brandon Wood. There were a lot of people on this board who saw him as a jewel that should be pried loose from the Angels system. You never want to trust the numbers from places like Salt Lake City and Rancho Cucamonga. The roster for the 2005 Quakes is very instructive. Here are two of the players on that roster, their ages, and the OPS they put up: Player | Age
| OPS | Howie Kendrick
| 21 | 1.059 | Brandon Wood
| 20 | 1.054 |
Other notable names who passed thru that year included Dallas McPherson and Kendrys Morales. Now Kendrick has been a good ballplayer but he's never put up anything close to the numbers he showed in the minors. Wood and McPherson, another binkie, have been complete busts.
I think the Sox benefit greatly from having teams in places such as Portland and Pawtucket. The Eastern League in particular is a prime example of a tough minor league, with lots of good pitching and good hitters. If you can make it there, you just may have a shot at the majors.
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Post by jmei on Feb 19, 2014 11:19:42 GMT -5
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Post by raftsox on Feb 19, 2014 11:43:24 GMT -5
Great reporting, thanks for the link. It isn't easy having your affiliates in the PCL and the Cal league, but it does seem like the Angels have started to put a better system in place. A lot of work. Interesting that they focus on Brandon Wood. There were a lot of people on this board who saw him as a jewel that should be pried loose from the Angels system. You never want to trust the numbers from places like Salt Lake City and Rancho Cucamonga. The roster for the 2005 Quakes is very instructive. Here are two of the players on that roster, their ages, and the OPS they put up: Player | Age
| OPS | Howie Kendrick
| 21 | 1.059 | Brandon Wood
| 20 | 1.054 |
Other notable names who passed thru that year included Dallas McPherson and Kendrys Morales. Now Kendrick has been a good ballplayer but he's never put up anything close to the numbers he showed in the minors. Wood and McPherson, another binkie, have been complete busts.
There have been plenty of very good major league players to go through the CAL and PCL. It seems too simple to explain success and failure on the parks that players developed in. There's so much more to player development than ballpark and stats; we talk about it all the time on this site: pitchers are told to focus on certain pitches, hitters are told to focus on hitting to the opposite field, etc. Ballpark effects are a convenient way to explain that Wood, et al., failed despite their inflated stats. But the ballpark doesn't explain why Brandon Wood's BB% went from 10% to 2.5%, or why his K% shot up 5%. And it doesn't explain why in 2007 in the PCL he slugs .500, but in the same league in 2013 he only slugs .400. There was something else that affected Brandon Wood. JMEI: I know that OUR ability to evaluate prospects was hampered by Lancaster, but was the team's ability to evaluate prospects hampered? Did they really expect Aaron Bates and Zach Daeges to be regulars?
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