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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 22, 2014 8:56:18 GMT -5
That's certainly most likely.
. . . and I completely spaced that he played a bit in the GCL last year.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 22, 2014 9:08:16 GMT -5
Very unfortunate, I was really excited about this kid. I hate to speculate, but what do you have to do to be replaced on the restricted list when you are not playing baseball...
There is a lot of pressure on these kids. I think back to when I was 19 and I didn't have my head on straight either. I probably would of been the same big talking tough guy if you wrote me a check that big, so I really can't judge. But I am still pulling for him.
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Post by oilcansman on Jul 22, 2014 9:24:19 GMT -5
This kid's clearly done at least with the Sox. The more interesting question is what steps can the Sox take to recoup some of the bonus that was paid to him. You better believe the Sox are on this issue. When a team pays a big bonus to a prospect there are undoubtedly contingencies that permit the team to recoup the bonus.
Denney was paid a $875,000 bonus and played 26 games for the GCL before essentially being tossed for misconduct. I don't know if the bonus was lump sum or paid out over a period of years.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 22, 2014 11:05:44 GMT -5
Well, it's not my money, and it's not like they can go back and offer it to another player they drafted but failed to sign, so I really don't care whether the Sox get it back or not.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 22, 2014 11:29:27 GMT -5
Well, it's not my money, and it's not like they can go back and offer it to another player they drafted but failed to sign, so I really don't care whether the Sox get it back or not. Which is why I would continue to hold onto him. Keep him in XST until he's ready to pull his head out of his rear. It's not like they're paying him anything. |
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871 
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Post by danr on Jul 22, 2014 11:34:38 GMT -5
I've never heard of a team getting any part of a bonus back, and I think it especially is unlikely after this passage of time, and Denny being on a minor league team.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 22, 2014 11:38:12 GMT -5
Well, it's not my money, and it's not like they can go back and offer it to another player they drafted but failed to sign, so I really don't care whether the Sox get it back or not. Which is why I would continue to hold onto him. Keep him in XST until he's ready to pull his head out of his rear. It's not like they're paying him anything. In the past, they have kept players on the Restricted List for a time. Austin Bailey, Jonathan Egan, and Scott Blue come to mind. They won't release him unless they are certain there is nothing doing and wouldn't care if he signed with another club. |
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Post by okin15 on Jul 22, 2014 12:08:52 GMT -5
This kid's clearly done at least with the Sox. Can you specify whether that's an opinion, a wish, or a fact? Generally, this is something we should all strive to do, as it does range. As for what they can do with the bonus, I think that was largely covered earlier in the thread, unless this contract was different than almost every other one we've encountered as a board. |
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 22, 2014 12:21:08 GMT -5
He played early in GCL and not late either. I asked about him during the Sox'Yankee PO game with another Sox player and was given a non committal response from a player as to why he wasn't at the game even. (it was at Tampa, but was an elimination playoff)
Possibly Denny had gotten himself into an issue late in the season last year with the GCL Sox and was why they had ceased playing him? Did anyone hear anything about that as a possibility?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 22, 2014 12:52:30 GMT -5
Too bad. That was a waste of a high draft pick. You see people not behaving like idiots struggle from paycheck to paycheck and this idiot kid gets a fat bonus check. Doesn't seem too right. Maybe one day he'll realize what he could have done or could be doing with his life, but I don't know if or when he'll ever get to that line of thinking.
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Post by oilcansman on Jul 22, 2014 12:54:07 GMT -5
This kid's clearly done at least with the Sox. Can you specify whether that's an opinion, a wish, or a fact? Generally, this is something we should all strive to do, as it does range. As for what they can do with the bonus, I think that was largely covered earlier in the thread, unless this contract was different than almost every other one we've encountered as a board. It's obviously an opinion. The contract issue has not been covered in this thread. Nobody on this board, to my knowledge, has read the standard contract draftees sign with major league organizations. I have read about contracts that are structured with bonus payments made over time and in lump sum. There must be contingencies that permit either recouping bonuses or suspending bonus payments. After all, what if Trey Ball collected his bonus, retired the following day and headed off to college as a millionaire freshman. I think bonus provisions contain service time clauses that require players to make a bona fide attempt to play the game for a certain number of years before retiring. I think it comes up with the two sport kid that wants to give up minor league ball and head to college to play football. It's pretty interesting, actually. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 22, 2014 13:11:31 GMT -5
Which is why I would continue to hold onto him. Keep him in XST until he's ready to pull his head out of his rear. It's not like they're paying him anything. In the past, they have kept players on the Restricted List for a time. Austin Bailey, Jonathan Egan, and Scott Blue come to mind. They won't release him unless they are certain there is nothing doing and wouldn't care if he signed with another club. Exactly. If I'm the Red Sox I wouldn't just release him because of a bad attitude. I'd release him because he's 23/24 and never got out of XST because of his crappy attitude. |
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Post by okin15 on Jul 22, 2014 13:35:21 GMT -5
Can you specify whether that's an opinion, a wish, or a fact? Generally, this is something we should all strive to do, as it does range. As for what they can do with the bonus, I think that was largely covered earlier in the thread, unless this contract was different than almost every other one we've encountered as a board. It's obviously an opinion. The contract issue has not been covered in this thread. Nobody on this board, to my knowledge, has read the standard contract draftees sign with major league organizations. I have read about contracts that are structured with bonus payments made over time and in lump sum. There must be contingencies that permit either recouping bonuses or suspending bonus payments. After all, what if Trey Ball collected his bonus, retired the following day and headed off to college as a millionaire freshman. I think bonus provisions contain service time clauses that require players to make a bona fide attempt to play the game for a certain number of years before retiring. I think it comes up with the two sport kid that wants to give up minor league ball and head to college to play football. It's pretty interesting, actually. No, it's not frigging obvious. It has been repeated ad nauseum that you specifically, and many other posters generally/occasionally, would do well to simply state whether your comments are opinion or fact or wish, especially when they contradict something someone else has said. That's a good chunk of the reason people jump on you. (I've been the object of the same ire/ridicule/anger in the past (and probably plenty still) so it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about here.) Others have stated the facts about the contract. Note how they didn't say, "I think" or "IMHO". You can choose not to believe them -- there are plenty of journalists I don't believe -- but you probably ought to come armed with some specific examples, otherwise you're just spewing thoughts, which is what a journal is for. |
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Post by moonstone2 on Jul 22, 2014 13:50:33 GMT -5
Can you specify whether that's an opinion, a wish, or a fact? Generally, this is something we should all strive to do, as it does range. As for what they can do with the bonus, I think that was largely covered earlier in the thread, unless this contract was different than almost every other one we've encountered as a board. It's obviously an opinion. The contract issue has not been covered in this thread. Nobody on this board, to my knowledge, has read the standard contract draftees sign with major league organizations. I have read about contracts that are structured with bonus payments made over time and in lump sum. There must be contingencies that permit either recouping bonuses or suspending bonus payments. After all, what if Trey Ball collected his bonus, retired the following day and headed off to college as a millionaire freshman. I think bonus provisions contain service time clauses that require players to make a bona fide attempt to play the game for a certain number of years before retiring. I think it comes up with the two sport kid that wants to give up minor league ball and head to college to play football. It's pretty interesting, actually. There is recourse if the player walks away after a certain amount of time. In the example you cited, there is a clause usually in most teams' UPC that would allow for the team to clawback the bonus if the player simply walked away the day after he signed. It's unclear if the courts would enforce these clauses though. In the case of Jon Denny if the team were to fire him for whatever reason it would be unlikely it could enforce the clawback clause of the contract. As long as Denny has shown up to play baseball and hasn't left until he was told to, the Red Sox would likely have no recourse. As for remedies, I don't think they should release him as there is no benefit in that. Send the kid home for the year and hope he comes back ready to play in instructs. |
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Post by oilcansman on Jul 22, 2014 13:52:18 GMT -5
okin:
Chill. Seriously, your post is embarrassing. Nobody on this board knows what the Sox plans are with Denney. It hasn't been reported anywhere. Hence, it must be an opinion. I'm not trying to upset you.
As for the contract question, nobody here has read Denney's contract. Nobody here has read the standard contract these kids sign. Go back and look at the thread. Nobody on this thread has indicated they know what's in his contract. I asked a fair question.
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Post by sammo420 on Jul 22, 2014 14:01:39 GMT -5
My thought is he is likely done with the organization. If he did not get it after the spring training incident he will never get it. Time to cut your losses and move on. Josh Hamilton? That's pretty much the bar for talented but troubled putting it together. I'm not giving up yet but I am disappointed, what troubles me the most about this the RWM situation. Some players have it taken away from them and other throw it away themselves. I think it's disrespectful to have that much talent and seemingly be willing to just waste it. |
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Post by moonstone2 on Jul 22, 2014 14:06:17 GMT -5
okin: Chill. Seriously, your post is embarrassing. Nobody on this board knows what the Sox plans are with Denney. It hasn't been reported anywhere. Hence, it must be an opinion. I'm not trying to upset you. As for the contract question, nobody here has read Denney's contract. Nobody here has read the standard contract these kids sign. Go back and look at the thread. Nobody on this thread has indicated they know what's in his contract. I asked a fair question. The minor league UPC isn't on the web but the major league one is. There is a lot of information as to what is in the minor league UPC and I think it answers your question. Clawbacks are instances where the player fails to report or abandons the team for more than two weeks. The team suspended Denny, there is no evidence that he either failed to report or abandoned the team. Does that answer your question? www.slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ57-1_Broshuis_Article.pdf |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 22, 2014 14:14:56 GMT -5
When someone uses an adjective like "clearly", it's clearly an opinion. If it wasn't an opinion, the sentence would be "Denney has been released" I would actually call it a "factual opinion", otherwise, why is this opinion so clear instead of just saying, "I think he gets release?" Clearly, I'm a handsome man. That's my opinion and clearly it's based on fact. |
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 22, 2014 14:15:14 GMT -5
Let's stay on topic or the thread will be locked until something else happens with Denney.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 22, 2014 14:28:09 GMT -5
He played early in GCL and not late either. I asked about him during the Sox'Yankee PO game with another Sox player and was given a non committal response from a player as to why he wasn't at the game even. (it was at Tampa, but was an elimination playoff) Possibly Denny had gotten himself into an issue late in the season last year with the GCL Sox and was why they had ceased playing him? Did anyone hear anything about that as a possibility? He only missed the last week or two, and he was at the fall instructional league. I asked at Instructs and was told by someone with the organization that he had a minor shoulder injury. Friendly reminder to try to minimize the speculation. Even with the best of intentions, wondering aloud by one person becomes something someone else reads as fact, and suddenly the player was sent home two years in a row. ...... To clarify my response to redsoxfan's post, I meant that they'll keep a player on the Restricted List even if, for all intents and purposes, he's no longer with the organization. We don't know whether or not Denney will get another shot, but it could be a while in either instance before they cut him. And one last point of information: there is one uniform player contract that is signed by every minor leaguer. Teams don't have their own versions of it. |
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Post by moonstone2 on Jul 22, 2014 15:18:54 GMT -5
The clawback provision is usually an appendix to the contract and it differs by team. See page 217 of the Broshius for an example. Limitations were placed on it in the last CBA.
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Post by joshv02 on Jul 22, 2014 17:12:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the article. really interesting.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 22, 2014 18:32:16 GMT -5
The clawback provision is usually an appendix to the contract and it differs by team. See page 217 of the Broshius for an example. Limitations were placed on it in the last CBA. Huh. Did not know that, if true. |
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Post by beany24 on Jul 22, 2014 20:27:21 GMT -5
Before paying out that kind of bonus I'm surprised that nobody in the scouting dept., especially a supervisor, picked up any red flags in a background check on this kid.
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Post by stevedillard on Jul 22, 2014 20:35:08 GMT -5
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