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Next year's manager
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Post by elguapo on Sept 27, 2012 9:57:57 GMT -5
The team is ready for a change at the top, and I think management realizes that. They may not have wanted to throw a new hire into a frustrating end-of-year situtation, and instead start them off with a clean slate in 2013. Candidates by category: 1. Bobby Valentine: not yet fired2. Managers under contract: Farrell 3. Candidates interviewed last go-around:Torey Lovullo, Sandy Alomar Jr, Gene Lamont, Pete Mackanin 4. Bogar, Dave Martinez, and many others. Given the acrimony of the end of 2011 and into this season, a fresh face may be in order - may be unfair for Bogar, but that's how it goes. FYI, Fox Sports is reporting that the Astros will hire Bo Porter, not Bogar or Martinez msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Houston-Astros-manager-2013-Bo-Porter-Washington-Nationals-third-base-coach-092612
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Post by marti427 on Sept 27, 2012 10:46:45 GMT -5
My question is do people really want to play for Bobby V should he not be fired? All the other threads talk about free agents coming here but I really wonder should he stay if he would play a deciding factor. I pray the Sox have seen the light and soon this won't be a question
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 27, 2012 11:00:59 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Valentine is out the door as the media seems to prefer. I read that the minority owners are in favor of his returning. Of course they don't make the decision, but I'm sure that Henry and Werner value their opinion.
In my opinion Bobby was given a bad hand to play from the beginning. He had to follow a popular and successful manager who was run out of town by a few late season incidents.
From a baseball perspective, putting personalities aside, I believe Babby did a good job, all things considered. He was recognized, even by those who opposed his hiring, that he is a student of the game and knows it well.
His assesments were right on when, for example, he identified Aceves as an effective closer when he was forced to make a decision with the injury to Bailey.
He soon recognized that Daniel Bard was not cut our for the role that upper management set up for him, and he was removed from the rotation.
He quickly grasped the potential of a Middlebrooks and the decline of Youkilis, who, incidently is still batting what he did for the R. Sox.
Crawford's injuries were not forecast and it left Bobby to improvise in the outfield with Nava, who had a good first half.
He installed Aviles at SS when most thought that jettisoning Scutaro was a mistake. Aviles has played well in his role.
Considering the problems Bobby inherited (not from Bush) I believe he deserves to complete his contract. Most of the criticism has been about his personality, not his judgement. He can be brutally honest with his remarks which can offend some, especially the media.
Starting with a clean slate next season will allow us all to better judge his acumen as the leader of this team.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 27, 2012 11:18:00 GMT -5
His assesments were right on when, for example, he identified Aceves as an effective closer This is maybe not what you should have used for your first example of Valentine's identification of player strengths. Aceves having a good save percentage while carrying a high ERA for three months has a lot more to do with the fact that most major league pitchers will get three outs before giving up three runs most of the time. See also: Joe Borowski, 2007. Having a good save percentage does not make someone a good closer, nor does it make closing the optimal usage of that player. In putting his most versatile pitcher into the least versatile role on the staff, he not only ended up with a mediocre closer. He also ended up with a serious void at long reliever early in the year, and a lack of an alternatives as a starting pitcher when the injury bug hit badly in June.
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Post by stevedillard on Sept 27, 2012 11:22:33 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Valentine is out the door as the media seems to prefer. I read that the minority owners are in favor of his returning. Of course they don't make the decision, but I'm sure that Henry and Werner value their opinion. Cherrington essentially said he is out this am during an interview. "I'd always rather get the decision right rather than rush it," Cherington said. "But I think that what we know we need to do is hit the ground running in this offseason. One of the things, as I look back at last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason. I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure."
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Post by elguapo on Sept 27, 2012 11:24:19 GMT -5
I'm not going to try to assign credit or blame on that level --
The essential point to me is that Valentine is not respected. Not by the players, not by the coaches, not throughout the league, not by the fans, not by the media. And he's earned that lack of respect over his career. He was not respected when he was hired and after a short grace period managed to lose whatever default level of respect that players give to a new manager.
Players don't need to love their manager, or even like him, but he must command, earn, deserve their respect. And that's what I would like to see in the next manager. Fill out the lineup card, give credit, take blame, run a tight ship in the clubhouse, manage the coaching staff, and know which hand is which when signalling to the bullpen.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Sept 27, 2012 11:45:27 GMT -5
I think it is pretty clear that the BobbyV error will end shortly. The injury excuse is weak as he has been a disaster from almost every perspective, including maintaining respect in the clubhouse, managing coaches, game decisions, media relations, etc. It was a mistake to hire him and he has confirmed this mistake on an almost daily basis.
Ben has his work cut out for him this offseason. Let's hope Lucchino stays out of his way and lets him do his job.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 27, 2012 11:53:48 GMT -5
Bobby V is a Drama Queen. He most definitely has to go. Respect is a two way street and he is on a One Way - Hopefully headed right out of Boston. There are a lot of Qualified Managerial Candidates out there that do not require compensation to hire. It shouldn't be to hard to find one to come to Boston in short order.
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Post by remember04 on Sept 27, 2012 12:04:52 GMT -5
His assesments were right on when, for example, he identified Aceves as an effective closer This is maybe not what you should have used for your first example of Valentine's identification of player strengths. Aceves having a good save percentage while carrying a high ERA for three months has a lot more to do with the fact that most major league pitchers will get three outs before giving up three runs most of the time. See also: Joe Borowski, 2007. Having a good save percentage does not make someone a good closer, nor does it make closing the optimal usage of that player. In putting his most versatile pitcher into the least versatile role on the staff, he not only ended up with a mediocre closer. He also ended up with a serious void at long reliever early in the year, and a lack of an alternatives as a starting pitcher when the injury bug hit badly in June. Yeah, I would've gone for trying Franklin Morales as a starter. I think that's the best thing Bobby did under his tenure. I know its just because he's riding Joe Maddons coat tails but I'm leaning towards Martinez for manager.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 27, 2012 12:09:39 GMT -5
I don't think that any the posts above that disagree are wrong. This season wasn't Bobby V.'s "fault." That said, his hiring was a mistake and I'll be stunned if it isn't corrected immediately following the end of the season. Some of his evaluation instincts have indeed been correct, but situationally and clubhouse-wise, everything bad we heard about him going in has been true.
Given Cherington's desire to do this quickly, I'd bet the candidates from last time (save Lamont) get good looks, plus Bogar. I don't think Farrell is going to happen anymore, although they may try to take a quick run at him to see if it goes anywhere.
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Post by marti427 on Sept 27, 2012 12:35:13 GMT -5
“One of the things, as I look back at last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason. I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure." Ben Cherington on WEEI today
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Post by okin15 on Sept 27, 2012 13:05:58 GMT -5
“One of the things, as I look back at last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason. I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure." Ben Cherington on WEEI today Of course, most people would read that as "we don't want to spend as much time looking for a manager." But one could also read it as "we don't want to spend any time looking for a manager." I just think, you've gotten rid of a bad apple or two. You probably aren't going to win a world series next season regardless of the manager. You're paying the guy, and most importantly, I'm not sure there's a really great candidate out there. If you fire Bobby, you kind of have to know who you want to hire. All that changes though if John Farrell is available. If he gets cut by the Jays, I think you see the Sox part ways with BV and go after their former pitching coach.
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Post by jmei on Sept 27, 2012 13:28:42 GMT -5
Bobby Valentine has lost the respect of the players and of the media. If he stays next year, that resentment will continue to build-- you think Pedroia is going to be all chummy with Valentine again now that Beckett and Gonzalez are gone? Even if the team doesn't compete next year, you certainly still want to be rid of the distraction and drama. It's tough to go to work everyday and hate your boss, especially if you have ten reporters (who also have no respect for the guy) sticking a microphone in your face and asking you about it everyday.
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Post by jmei on Sept 27, 2012 13:55:28 GMT -5
His assesments were right on when, for example, he identified Aceves as an effective closer when he was forced to make a decision with the injury to Bailey. This has been discussed above. Installing a pitcher with a career 4.52 xFIP as your closer is not a good move, even if he kept up his BABIP magic for a month or two. It wasn't exactly difficult to recognize that Bard's stint as a starter was going terribly and that he wasn't improving-- everyone else realized it as well, including the front office, the media, and fans. More importantly, Valentine was all for moving Bard to the rotation in the first place, and still believed in late May that he could fix himself ( link). Kevin Youkilis was traded on June 24th. He's put up a .341 wOBA in his stint with the White Sox. Here are Middlebrooks' wOBAs by month since then: .341 in July, .304 in August. Yes, Middlebrooks is a better defender and baserunner, but since the trade Youkilis has outperformed him at the plate. You're partially right in that he believed in Middlebrooks more than I did and it turned out the truth was closer to Valentine's perspective than mine. I give him credit for willing to go with younger players when I (and other managers) would be more risk adverse and go with the known quantity. Crawford's injuries were certainly forecast since instead of having TJ surgery right away, they delayed it so he would miss less of the 2012 season. Moreover, it's not like Valentine could have played anyone else-- in that stretch in April/May, the Red Sox had a ton of outfield injuries and it was either Nava or Marlon Byrd/Darnell MacDonald. Not exactly a hard decision to make. No, he wanted Iglesias as the starting SS-- remember the praise he heaped on Jose towards the end of training camp? To be fair, it's hard to say whether starting Iglesias would have been a worse idea, but you certainly can't say that Valentine was all for Aviles from the get-go. Sorry to be a jerk and write the above, but I really think very little of it can be properly attributed to Bobby Valentine alone. He certainly has made some good player evaluations-- Morales to the rotation seems to be working out, for instance. But I think at this point, the benefits aren't worth the costs.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Sept 27, 2012 14:06:20 GMT -5
Perhaps Ben should get started now on finding a new manager. Bo Porter hired by Astros today (apparently to beat the Marlins to the punch as it appears that Ozzie will be fired soon). Acta fired this afternoon and Sandy Alomar Jr named interim manager for the Indians for the last six games of the 2012 season.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 27, 2012 15:01:38 GMT -5
I would be ok with Acta for some reason
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Post by klostrophobic on Sept 27, 2012 15:33:49 GMT -5
My ideal candidate is some recently retired catcher who has never managed, not named Varitek. What is Paul LoDuca doing these days?
Just please no big names or personalities.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 27, 2012 15:37:10 GMT -5
Acta has some similarities to Francona, beyond just the bald noggin. He's a smart guy and seems to be a good communicator - but he's also 0 for 2 now. Obviously those Nationals teams he had were miserably bad, but the Indians faded down the stretch two straight years. I'm really torn about him, as I thought it was a good hire for the Indians as well, but just didn't work out.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 27, 2012 15:51:15 GMT -5
Acta has some similarities to Francona, beyond just the bald noggin. He's a smart guy and seems to be a good communicator - but he's also 0 for 2 now. Obviously those Nationals teams he had were miserably bad, but the Indians faded down the stretch two straight years. I'm really torn about him, as I thought it was a good hire for the Indians as well, but just didn't work out. Eh, those Indians teams were pretty awful too. I don't really care what part of the season they racked up their losses in.
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Post by buffs4444 on Sept 27, 2012 17:27:17 GMT -5
Farrell. Need a guy who can solve the riddle that is the enigmatic rotation, and he is that guy.
Later Bobby
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Post by rooster on Sept 27, 2012 19:13:09 GMT -5
I wish Variteek had managed this year and was ready. Couple of years?
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Post by onbase on Sept 27, 2012 20:34:52 GMT -5
Alex Cora?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Sept 28, 2012 9:02:02 GMT -5
I would like to get a manager without any ties to the Red Sox of the last few year. That would be John Farrell. I still like Tony Pena. I think he could work out good if he had the right pitching coach.
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Post by jdb on Sept 28, 2012 9:22:46 GMT -5
After Bobby V I can get behind anyone. Jim Bowden had a piece for ESPN about potential hires and he had the usual suspects. He's top ten were Sandberg, Maddox( with his brother as PC), Martinez, Bogar, Hale, Porter (already gone), Joe McEwing, Luvullo, Pat Listach and Tito. Does anyone know how Listach is as far as the saber world is? Do we know if Maddux will leave now? Here is the link with the Listach write up and other names we will hear. insider.espn.go.com/blog/the-gms-office/post/_/id/5015/ten-most-likely-managerial-candidatesPat Listach, third-base coach, Chicago Cubs Lou Piniella told me a few years back that Listach will eventually become a successful manager. It was just the second time Piniella ever recommended someone to me; the other was Don Mattingly, who has become a huge success for the Los Angeles Dodgers. The 1992 American League Rookie of the Year has four years of minor league managing experience on his résumé as well as four years of major league coaching. Other names you'll hear: Don Baylor, Aaron Boone, Larry Bowa, Joey Cora, Luis Gonzalez, Tony Gwynn, A.J. Hinch, Trey Hillman, Gene Lamont, Pete Mackanin, Chris Maloney, Jerry Manuel, Dave Miley, Jose Oquendo, Tony Pena, Eduardo Perez, Mike Piazza, Bo Porter, Willie Randolph, Jim Riggleman, Tom Runnells, Alan Trammell, Tim Wallach
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Post by remember04 on Sept 28, 2012 9:28:10 GMT -5
Aaron Boone???
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