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2014-15 offseason discussion
nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2014 19:03:27 GMT -5
If we got Wheeler for Cespedes I would cream my pants.
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Nov 23, 2014 19:05:34 GMT -5
Given Cuddyer I am guessing it would be a tough sell for the Mets to give up Wheeler unless Cespedes is not the headline in that package.
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Post by larrycook on Nov 23, 2014 21:19:04 GMT -5
Given Cuddyer I am guessing it would be a tough sell for the Mets to give up Wheeler unless Cespedes is not the headline in that package. Even with cespedes as the headliner in the trade proposal, I can't figure out why the Mets would want to move wheeler.
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nomar
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Posts: 10,700
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2014 21:41:21 GMT -5
I would give up a lot more than Cespedes for Wheeler. Like Cespedes + Johnson + Marrero. You're talking about a #3/2 with a lot of team control. He's a very valuable asset.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2014 22:03:48 GMT -5
Wow! If the Sox do sign Hanley Ramirez and then sign Sandoval - that would be shocking and unanticipated.
I prefer Hanley to Sandoval although you could make some arguments for Sandoval over Hanley, namely defense, his attitude, and the fact that he's younger, but I'd take Hanley's bat over Sandoval.
If they got both, my biggest concern would be that either Bogaerts or more likely Betts would be gone in a deal.
I read that the Phils want Bogaerts but it's hard to imagine the Sox would deal Bogaerts, give Hanley SS or rush Marrero up to play SS all for the privilege of paying Cole Hamels 5 years $110 million or so.
I could see a scenario where Betts is dangled in a deal for Jordan Zimmermann.
You figure Cespedes would be a goner and then they'd still have a lot of money on the books for OFers as they would have Craig and Victorino, two question marks, and one of which would wind up in RF (most likely Victorino). You have to figure that Craig won't be too easy to deal given his uncertainly and Victorino would have to prove himself healthy before being dealt and I'd think the Sox would need to chip in money.
I hope dual signings of Sandoval and Ramirez wouldn't stop the Sox from doing what it takes to secure Lester and even bring back Andrew Miller if possible and throw a bunch of money and Moncado.
Personally, I would love it if the Sox signed both Ramirez and Sandoval (although there could be some regrets there in a couple of years), sign Lester and Miller, sign Moncado, and then deal Cespedes plus for a good starting pitcher to put behind Lester and somehow keep their best prospects such as Swihart, Owens, Rodriguez, Devers, and Margot.
A lineup of:
Betts RF Pedroia 2B Ortiz DH Ramirez LF Sandoval 3B Napoli 1B Bogaerts SS Swihart C (obviously in mid-season as Vazquez is starting catcher on Opening Day) Castillo CF
With the hope that Bogaerts blossoms, Swihart comes up and balances out the lineup even further, Castillo is a young Victorino, and everybody else remains healthy, and Betts builds on his performance from last season.
Then have Lester, pitcher X to be acquired, Buchholz, Kelly, and most of the young pitchers like Barnes, Rodriguez, and Owens ready to come up in the 2nd half and a bullpen consisting of Uehara, Miller, Mujica, Tazawa, Layne, and a couple others like Workman or Badenhop if they bring him back, etc.
And Moncado joining the system. What a rebuild that would be!
This has the potential to be very, very exciting. Just hope the Sox hang on to Bogaerts and Betts.
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Post by tonyc on Nov 23, 2014 22:14:37 GMT -5
Soxchamps I would love that too..but I am concerned the Yankees are favored for Moncado and lurking for Lester..wouldn't mind the Cubs getting him as much- those are the most loyal ( and patient, unlike our) fans and I'd love to see them win one, and still love Theo. I suspect if Sox sign both Panda and Hanley, they are reading that the market is too high for Lester and will be making trades of the created surpluses for pitching- hopefully Cespedes + Renaudo ie., but hopefully not Betts or Bogaerts, who should be untouchable.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2014 23:07:27 GMT -5
Soxchamps I would love that too..but I am concerned the Yankees are favored for Moncado and lurking for Lester..wouldn't mind the Cubs getting him as much- those are the most loyal ( and patient, unlike our) fans and I'd love to see them win one, and still love Theo. I suspect if Sox sign both Panda and Hanley, they are reading that the market is too high for Lester and will be making trades of the created surpluses for pitching- hopefully Cespedes + Renaudo ie., but hopefully not Betts or Bogaerts, who should be untouchable. I, too, suspect the Yanks will wind up with Moncado, especially the way they blew past the spending cap. They know their farm system is terrible, hence the major international expenditures. I still hope the Sox wind up with Moncado - that would be the cherry on top of the Sundae. FWIW, Dan Roche tweeted that signing Sandoval and Ramirez wouldn't prevent the Sox from signing Lester, which is good to hear. Would that mean that adding Andrew Miller, too, would be too much? I have to wonder if the Sox' strategy to sign BOTH Sandoval AND Ramirez is a reaction to the realization that there is not going to be some sort of trade for a talent such as Stanton - the save all your chips kind of thing, so if that's the case you spend the money and upgrade everywhere you can instead of saving up for that one big splurge. All I can say is that if the Sox do indeed wind up with Lester, Sandoval, and Ramirez, then I guess the Sox' strategies of the past couple of years are gone. I mean, I don't want to see the Sox stuck with awful contracts and I would worry that Sandoval could become an albatross, but I also think the Sox strategy of short-term high annual $ figures would be hard to maintain. The Sox caught lightning in a bottle in 2013. Hard to do that again.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 23, 2014 23:37:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't say these are albatross contracts. I think Lester should hold up; it seems when he doesn't have his 95 he has the cutter curve or changeup to get you out. And 5-6 year deals for max I would think 135m (Hanley) aren't terrible deals one of them could move to First and DH down the road if they can't field there positions and something tells me that Hanley in front of the monster will help his career a bit even if he's just as bad as Manny. Plus these aren't 7/142 or 8/189 or in general bad investments whereas I think everyone thought Carl was a terrible signing from the beginning.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,700
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Post by nomar on Nov 23, 2014 23:44:08 GMT -5
Curious to see the Sandoval situation unfold. Still don't like the fit or believe that he comes here, but time will tell.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 23, 2014 23:56:58 GMT -5
Most of my thoughts have been contingent on the idea that the Sox refuse to go over the tax limit. With the deal for Hanley, the supposed remaining interest in Sandoval, and the obvious need for at least one top flight pitcher, maybe they're ready to join NY and LA as elite spenders
This feels like it could get real fun real fast
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 24, 2014 0:19:58 GMT -5
I don't see the vision of what Cherrington is trying to do with Hanley AND Sandoval as the media seems to be pushing at the moment. Perhaps they have big trade lined up it would be a heck of a week.
What does this mean for Bogaerts/Betts?
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 24, 2014 0:29:33 GMT -5
Allegedly Beane is shopping Jaso now. Seems like a decent fit to me. Especially now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 24, 2014 0:31:24 GMT -5
I don't see the vision of what Cherrington is trying to do with Hanley AND Sandoval as the media seems to be pushing at the moment. Perhaps they have big trade lined up it would be a heck of a week. What does this mean for Bogaerts/Betts? I share the same concern. Cespedes obviously has a decent amount of value, but guys like Bradley, WMB, Victorino, and Craig - guys who compose the log jam, have very little value at this point. I would think Cecchini would have no future in Boston if Sandoval signs - he'd have nowhere left to play since 3B and LF would be taken, so I would suppose he'd be heavily on the trade table. I can't think you'd get an ace-like pitcher unless Bogaerts or Betts is sacrificed. I hope the Sox don't do that sacrifice. I would hope that this means that merely Bogaerts is the SS and Betts is the RF. The defense would be scary as the Sox would have a 280 lb 3b, a SS who is shaky on defense, and LF who has never really been a SS, and a RF who is new to the position, along with a CF who is still a question mark at this point defensively, although he did look smooth in a small sample.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 24, 2014 0:41:07 GMT -5
I would love to be listening to their conversations to know what they are thinking. Marketing people: We want Panda. Baseball ops: We want Hanley. Ownership: You get both.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 24, 2014 0:42:33 GMT -5
Admittedly a signing of both Hanley and Sandoval would be tarnished if it resulted in trading Bogaerts or Betts. I have no interest in giving up either of these two or Swihart for Hamels with so many other options in Iwakuma, Cueto, Zimmerman, Latos, etc. . who may be obtained for some package not including them.
I'd still take signing Castillo, Hanley, Pablo and Lester over what NYY signed last season in Ellsbury, McCann, Tanaka and Beltran considering age and dollars.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 0:43:54 GMT -5
where was that link for Pablo on a plane?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 24, 2014 0:47:08 GMT -5
@scottlauber: Source on whether #RedSox' reported agreement with Hanley Ramirez will impact offer to Pablo Sandoval: "Let's see." They not telling anything to reporters, they talking to 14 y/o.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 1:25:41 GMT -5
this Jake Wesley says Sox could look to trade Xander for a pitcher and play Han Ram at SS. I hope not.
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Post by draft37 on Nov 24, 2014 1:59:00 GMT -5
With these signings, I am getting ever so closer to the Red Sox re-creating my roster on MLB Front Office Manager 2008.
In all seriousness, while I think the money for Hanley is very reasonable (especially considering the 130-140 million estimates he was getting) I am really concerned about the contract long term. He's three years older than Sandoval and missed over a hundred games the past two seasons. I don't particularly hate the signing, as it does free up more trade pieces to get a front of the line pitcher.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,700
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Post by nomar on Nov 24, 2014 2:07:14 GMT -5
What are the injuries Hanley has suffered from the last 4 seasons? The average of 115 games played per season over the last four years doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in his ability to stay on the field. The outfield will be a lot less physically strenuous on him.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 2:07:55 GMT -5
The Red Sox are now playing the game with more pieces than just about anyone else. They could go in so many directions, and just about all of them make for a great team that is fun to watch
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 2:17:11 GMT -5
who are some other starters that could be dealt who isn't Cole Hamels?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,700
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Post by nomar on Nov 24, 2014 2:20:34 GMT -5
No GM would give Xander for Hamels. I'm too confident in BC to believe that would happen. Cespedes will be dealt for a pitcher, but Bogaerts makes no sense. We'd need a new SS by 2016 at the latest with Hanley at SS. Won't happen.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 2:24:37 GMT -5
Sorry I mean't who should be worthy of X man I wouldn't deal him for any of them. I would trade Cespedes+ for them.
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Post by mattpicard on Nov 24, 2014 3:07:20 GMT -5
who are some other starters that could be dealt who isn't Cole Hamels? Other than free agent starting pitchers, the most smoke has surrounded possible trades for Cueto, Samardzija, Wheeler, Zimmerman, Leake and possibly Fister. None of which should sniff a return of Bogaerts. EDIT: Well, maybe you could work on a package with the Mets involving Wheeler. -- Sharing this for nothing other than amusement. 2011-2013:
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