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Do We Also Need a Catcher for Next Season?
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,818
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 2, 2012 16:32:29 GMT -5
"Opponents also have been successful 28 of the 31 times they’ve tried to steal a base with Lavarnway behind the plate, a rate of 90.3 percent that’s well higher than the 82.1 percent of Saltalamacchia or the 65.5 percent of the since-traded Kelly Shoppach.
Catchers’ ERA is a dubious statistic at best, and, as such, it tells two distinctly different stories about Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia. As a whole, for whatever it’s worth, Red Sox pitchers have a 5.75 ERA when pitching to Lavarnway and a 4.71 ERA when pitching to Saltalamacchia."Here is the complete article from Brian MacPherson of the Providence Journal: www.providencejournal.com/sports/red-sox/content/20121001-is-lavarnway-catching-on-or-not.eceIt mentions that Lavarnway has been behind the plate with guys like Dice-K and Stewart, while Salty was not. I know a pitcher's ERA is not always the best way of measuring their performance, but it is one way. I acknowledge a catcher's steal to being thrown out percentage is as much on the pitcher. And this is coming from a guy who really wants Ryan Lavarnway to succeed as our catcher, do we need to ALSO look at improving behind the plate? Would someone like Russell Martin be an upgrade? Can we succeed with the 2 catchers we have going forward?
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 2, 2012 17:02:58 GMT -5
Perhaps we'll succeed in obtaining another high draft pick in 2014.
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Post by remember04 on Oct 2, 2012 17:44:21 GMT -5
Perhaps we'll succeed in obtaining another high draft pick in 2014. Off topic yet related but maybe Austin Hedges was the guy we should've drafted a couple of years ago?
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 3, 2012 9:28:28 GMT -5
It mentions that Lavarnway has been behind the plate with guys like Dice-K and Stewart, while Salty was not. To me, this is all that needs to be said about how poor catchers ERA is as a base stat. If there is *any* value there, it whether there is a real difference between how an individual pitcher performs with one catcher relative to another. Lavarnway had three pitchers with >70 batters faced with him behind the plate: Jon Lester To Saltalamacchia: 107.1 IP, 5.62 ERA, .307/.367/.502 To Lavarnway: 49.1 IP, 4.01 ERA, .238/.312/.362 To Shoppach: 48.2 IP, 3.70 ERA, .226/.259/.379 Clay Buchholz To Saltalamacchia: 75.2 IP, 6.30 ERA, .318/.392/.543 To Lavarnway: 35.2 IP, 3.79 ERA, .233/.291/.338 To Shoppach: 78.0 IP, 3.23 ERA, .217/.281/.341 Daisuke Matsuzaka To Saltalamacchia 25.0 ERA, 4.68 ERA, .237/.306/.402 To Lavarnway:13.1 IP, 13.50 ERA, .400/.479/.733 To Shoppach: 5.0 IP, 7.20 ERA, .263/.300/.526 Lester and Buchholz both pitched significantly worse to Saltalamacchia, and about the same to Lavarnway and Shoppach. Daisuke did his worst pitching with Lavarnway behind the plate, but 13.1 IP isn't any sort of a sample size. The biggest difference between Lavarnway and Saltalamacchia's overall catchers ERA, though, is that the Red Sox were getting acceptable major league pitching from Josh Beckett and had a more healthy Felix Doubront in the first half. Saltalamachhia had a lot more opportunity to catch good pitchers than Lavarnway did.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Oct 4, 2012 7:45:43 GMT -5
We've needed one for 3 or 4 years. So, to answer the question. YES! Might be the one position on the field where we don't have a legit MLB player or prospect close to fill. Aren't any fa's we can sign to fill it either. I consider Xander a SS for now, so I'm not going all out to acquire a young player at that position.
Anyone know anything about Martin Maldonado? He's Milwaukee's backup C and only 26. Brewers are committed to Lucroy. Who can really rake. But, on the Milwaukee broadcast last night they were raving about Maldonado's defensive prowess. Threw out 32pct of runners. OPS was 729 in 233 at bats. 8 dingers. Would have to be an old time baseball trade. Talent for talent. Their bullpen was horrendous. Kept them from making the wild-card. Rubby ++
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Post by elguapo on Oct 4, 2012 9:06:45 GMT -5
Once we've traded our best young pitcher for a backup catcher, who do we trade to get a starting catcher?
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Post by jmei on Oct 4, 2012 9:31:28 GMT -5
We need a good defensive catcher. Catcher ERA aside, Saltalamacchia has trouble throwing out baserunners and is a bad pitch-framer. Lavarnway is worse in both respects. Catcher defense is difficult to quantify, but it matters a lot, and neither of our projected catchers are very good at it. I think this is a strong reason why I suspect at least one of Saltalamacchia/Lavarnway will be traded and a veteran brought in via trade or FA.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,818
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 4, 2012 13:17:35 GMT -5
We need a good defensive catcher. Catcher ERA aside, Saltalamacchia has trouble throwing out baserunners and is a bad pitch-framer. Lavarnway is worse in both respects. Catcher defense is difficult to quantify, but it matters a lot, and neither of our projected catchers are very good at it. I think this is a strong reason why I suspect at least one of Saltalamacchia/Lavarnway will be traded and a veteran brought in via trade or FA. This is my take also jmei. There are many ways to win games and championships. We would all like a team that dominates in all areas, but it never happens. I'd really like to see our team be built more on pitching and defense and an offense that grinds. A good defensive club builds a pitcher's trust and, I believe, creates a more consistent positive outcome. This is one of the reasons I'm really wanting Jose Iglesias to be our shortstop next year for at least the 1st half of the season. We badly need a real good defensive catcher. To me, Salty and Lavarnway sort of have the same strengths and the same weaknesses.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 4, 2012 23:11:05 GMT -5
Can we get Shoppach back and trade Salty?
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,818
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 5, 2012 14:46:53 GMT -5
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Post by SlugLife on Oct 5, 2012 16:11:56 GMT -5
I wonder what the price would be on Kurt Suzuki in Washington. He appears redundant going into 2013 and he would be a defensive upgrade over both Saltalamacchia and Lavarnway. He also has, from what I recall, a great Fenway swing.
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Post by dewey1972 on Oct 5, 2012 19:48:44 GMT -5
I prefer Lavarnway because Saltalamacchia can only do one thing offensively (and it doesn't make up for everything else), but while Saltalamacchia is not my favorite, he's actually quite good at framing pitches. Mike Fast did some groundbreaking work on pitch framing, and Saltalamacchia was definitely above average. www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15093
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Post by mredsox89 on Oct 5, 2012 22:50:31 GMT -5
If there weren't multiple other major holes on the roster, then catcher would certainly be a priority. But even with below average defense, Salty+Lavarnway will provide above average offense for a catcher next season, and it's not like there are that many premium catchers in the bigs, let alone available
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Post by dcri on Oct 6, 2012 8:02:32 GMT -5
It is virtually impossible to trade for a top level catcher, but only that kind of acquisition would have a significant impact on the Red Sox. Getting another slightly better defensive catcher - or even much better - won't do much. That low throw-out rate is not a major factor in the team's performance at this point. It becomes more important when a team is highly competitive in other respects.
For the Sox to be competitive again they need to fill the middle of the lineup with top of the line hitters at 1B and in the OF, some really good starting pitchers, and a couple of strong and reliable RPs.
It is going to take a while to get all of that in place.
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Post by dmaineah on Oct 6, 2012 8:22:11 GMT -5
For the Sox to be competitive again they need to fill the middle of the lineup with top of the line hitters at 1B and in the OF Yup, It's more important to find a couple of players to hit #3 & #4 in the lineup then it is to find an upgrade at the Catcher Position. Unless we can get Buster Poesy and fill two needs with one move. Wouldn't that be awesome!
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 6, 2012 9:07:16 GMT -5
As much as I love Salty, and still believe he can improve both in BA and CS ratio, he will be a free agent after next season like Ellsbury. And, like Ells, could have some value on the market.
Mike Napoli is the only FA I like this year besides Ross and Papi. He had an off season like Salty, which could reduce his asking price. He's a devastating Fenway hitter. While not strong defensively, he's versatile enough to play 1B and DH. Lavarnway had a poor 22 game stint in Boston this year. But he was voted best defensive catcher in the IL by opposing managers. Has some upside.
Napoli for 3y 30m playing 40% behind the plate while the rest at 1B and giving Papi a rest vs tough LHPs is my proposal.
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Post by jdb on Oct 6, 2012 9:47:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure he's a fit but watching the Braves yesterday made me think about David Ross. FA who made 1.6 million last season and has been one of the best backups for years and could probably handle an increased roll. Pretty good behind the plate and not much of a LH/RH split.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 6, 2012 17:45:03 GMT -5
Despite his unimpressive trial, I think the Sox need to continue to give Lavarnway an opportunity to start. I like to think that Lavarnway spent more time focusing on his defense so he can be an adequate catcher, and neglected his hitting, but I don't know that to be the case. I'd still give him a chance.
I would hedge my bets with signing Napoli who could split time at C and 1b and do some DHing.
I'd try to trade Salty to a team impressed with his 25 HRs and see what the Sox could get.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,818
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 7, 2012 19:10:31 GMT -5
We've needed one for 3 or 4 years. So, to answer the question. YES! Might be the one position on the field where we don't have a legit MLB player or prospect close to fill. Aren't any fa's we can sign to fill it either. I consider Xander a SS for now, so I'm not going all out to acquire a young player at that position. Anyone know anything about Martin Maldonado? He's Milwaukee's backup C and only 26. Brewers are committed to Lucroy. Who can really rake. But, on the Milwaukee broadcast last night they were raving about Maldonado's defensive prowess. Threw out 32pct of runners. OPS was 729 in 233 at bats. 8 dingers. Would have to be an old time baseball trade. Talent for talent. Their bullpen was horrendous. Kept them from making the wild-card. Rubby ++ He would certainly be someone to consider gregblossersbelly . Age, defense, and some pop....he sounds perfect. Bet he'd cost a bunch considering the position he plays. Hope they look into what the Brewers would want. For me, Rubby is untouchable. Here is a great article mentioning Maldonado: www.rantsports.com/mlb/2012/09/12/mlb-rumors-will-jonathan-lucroy-play-right-field-part-time-next-season/
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Oct 8, 2012 8:13:17 GMT -5
I feel the best course of action is to trade Saltalamacchia for a decent prospect, sign Napoli to play 1B and occasionally catch, and bring up Butler as the defensive backup. Napoli is somewhat redundant to Salty with low avg, high power numbers, except Napoli can play a decent 1B (and would cost a lot more). Overall the roster would have more flexibility.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 8, 2012 12:29:30 GMT -5
I feel the best course of action is to trade Saltalamacchia for a decent prospect, sign Napoli to play 1B and occasionally catch, and bring up Butler as the defensive backup. Napoli is somewhat redundant to Salty with low avg, high power numbers, except Napoli can play a decent 1B (and would cost a lot more). Overall the roster would have more flexibility. I'd say that Salty and Napoli look kind of similar on the surface given their .220s BA and 25 HRs, but Napoli is much better than Salty because he gets on base at a good clip, even with his low BA. Salty is a hacker. Hope there's a team that finds lots of value in his 25 HRs and doesn't pay too much attention to his low OBP and would be willing to give the Sox some pitching help for him.
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Post by jmei on Oct 8, 2012 13:17:06 GMT -5
I feel the best course of action is to trade Saltalamacchia for a decent prospect, sign Napoli to play 1B and occasionally catch, and bring up Butler as the defensive backup. Napoli is somewhat redundant to Salty with low avg, high power numbers, except Napoli can play a decent 1B (and would cost a lot more). Overall the roster would have more flexibility. I agree with this line of thought, but I think you'd also have to trade Lavarnway in this scenario as well-- he's a very similar player to Napoli (probably less power and much less proven, but both right-handed hitters with patience and power who struggle with catcher defense).
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Post by marti427 on Oct 8, 2012 13:32:04 GMT -5
I almost wonder if the Braves would be interested in bringing him back, Ross is getting older and they may want to move on from him and some Braves fans in other message boards have questioned if they can bring back McCann and from watching Christian Bethancourt several time in person this year I believe he is still a few years away. So trade for Salty have him in a backup roll and could be resigned and used to help work Bethancourt in in the future.
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Post by jmei on Oct 8, 2012 14:10:11 GMT -5
One guy to keep an eye on-- Hang Conger. The Angels just signed Chris Iannetta to an extension and might be looking to move Conger, who has a career .297/.359/.467 line in the minor leagues (including a .298/.371/.470 line in 751 AAA ABs over the past three years). He's a 24-year-old switch-hitting catcher with very good patience and good power who can maintain a solid batting average. His defense is generally acknowledged as below-average but improving. Mike Scoscia is notoriously unwilling to play offense-first catchers (although he might not last through next season). His profile is somewhat similar to Lavarnways, though I think Conger probably has a better chance to stick at C.
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Post by brendan98 on Oct 11, 2012 9:10:52 GMT -5
The Sox need a young defensive minded catcher who can handle the bat a little, too bad we don't have a guy in the system like Tim Federowicz.
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