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Post by jioh on Sept 5, 2012 11:37:31 GMT -5
Exaggerating never proves a point; it usually suggests that your point cannot be made without fudging facts. How's your marathon time?
Paying attention to Iglesias' SLG is not a waste of time. He needs to continue to improve with pitch recognition, and he needs to make hard contact. As he becomes 22 and 23 we hope he gets a little stronger each year.
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Post by Chris Mellen on Sept 5, 2012 11:58:33 GMT -5
Paying attention to Iglesias' SLG is not a waste of time. He needs to continue to improve with pitch recognition, and he needs to make hard contact. As he becomes 22 and 23 we hope he gets a little stronger each year. I agree. Iglesias needs to make more consistent solid contact, which strongly derives from him being able to differentiate what is being thrown to him. His average, OBP, SLG, OPS, or whatever other metric being tracked is going to improve if he makes more solid contact. If he doesn't, they aren't.
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Post by clownwacko on Sept 6, 2012 17:56:28 GMT -5
Trade jose our light hitting dave kingman for some pitching, We have Pedro Ciriaco to play SS next year. Our farm system is loaded with SS prosects.
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 6, 2012 22:12:27 GMT -5
Trade jose our light hitting dave kingman for some pitching, We have Pedro Ciriaco to play SS next year. Our farm system is loaded with SS prosects. I agree. Trade Iglesias this off season. I believe his trade value has actually started to fall from this pass off season to now and if he gets to much exposure to MLB Pitchers it could fall further. During these past 12 months his value is as high as it will get so it's time to get some value out of him. Aviles can hold the job with Ciriaco & De Jesus as his back up until Bogaerts is ready. Of course the Sox could always try to get Toluwizki from Colorado in a trade.
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Post by bentossaurus on Sept 6, 2012 22:51:25 GMT -5
There's probably no amount of players the Sox could throw at Colorado for them to let Tulowitzki go. None.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 7, 2012 11:08:22 GMT -5
Chris...
"Prognosis Negative"?
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Post by dmaineah on Sept 7, 2012 12:15:20 GMT -5
There's probably no amount of players the Sox could throw at Colorado for them to let Tulowitzki go. None. They would have to be looking to get rid of salary, Which could happen. No harm in the Sox asking.
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dd
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Posts: 979
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Post by dd on Sept 21, 2012 8:59:05 GMT -5
Nice to see Jose get three hits last night including his first homer. I'm really pulling for this kid.
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Post by patrmac04 on Sept 21, 2012 9:44:39 GMT -5
Nice to see Jose get three hits last night including his first homer. I'm really pulling for this kid. That was definitely good to see... I remember how hard it was for Pedroia to hit in the majors while he adjusted and he was a good hitter.... it must be real tough for a kid who isn't nearly as talented with the stick.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Sept 21, 2012 9:59:22 GMT -5
Nice to see Jose get three hits last night including his first homer. I'm really pulling for this kid. That was definitely good to see... I remember how hard it was for Pedroia to hit in the majors while he adjusted and he was a good hitter.... it must be real tough for a kid who isn't nearly as talented with the stick. I was tickled pink with Jose last night.....and I hate pink!
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Post by kindasweaty on Sept 21, 2012 10:45:40 GMT -5
They would have to be looking to get rid of salary, Which could happen. No harm in the Sox asking. They could ask about Mike Trout while they're at it, doesn't make it a fruitful exercise.
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Post by brendan98 on Oct 1, 2012 9:30:25 GMT -5
With the possible exception of Ozzie Smith, Jose Iglesias is the best defensive player I have ever seen. I was pretty young when Ozzie played, and I did not get to see him live very often, most of what I saw was a highlight, but I can't imagine from what I have seen from Iglesias that Ozzie could have been much better if at all.
It seems that one line of thinking, is that the Red Sox should just pencil Iglesias into the lineup next year, and that his defense will more than make up for any offensive weakness he has. On the opposite end of the spectrum, it seems some believe that no team can afford to carry such an offensive black hole in their lineup, regardless of their defense.
So which is it? Or does reality lie somewhere in the middle?
I think the Sox should rebuild this team, with an emphasis on pitching. I was thrilled to see them acquire 2 very good arms in the Punto trade. I am hoping they use their top 10 draft choice on the best pitcher available in next year's draft. And finally, I hope the Sox let Iglesias run with the shortstop job, and see how much better that alone, makes the pitching staff.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 1, 2012 10:22:09 GMT -5
FanGraphs and Baseball-Reference both have Iglesias as being worth 0.4 WAR so far this year, despite the .123/.219/.211 batting line in 66 plate appearances. Drawn out over the course of a full season, that means he's been the equivalent of about a 2.5 to 3 WAR player this month, despite not hitting. That's how good he is defensively.
So if these metrics rate him a positive player when he doesn't hit, how valuable would he be if he does? I think it's worth it to find it.
EDIT: Also, Normally I'd find Ozzie Smith comparisons far-fetched, but I was at the game Wednesday where he made the play on the Longoria grounder, and oh my lord. Watching Iglesias play defense actually makes me like baseball more.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 1, 2012 10:37:09 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this article from Nick Cafardo about Iglesias today: www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/2012/09/30/iglesias-thinks-can-handle-chance/U47J82semlai8dMvlM10PN/story.html"Iglesias plays hard and he runs very well. He could be a player who steals some bases, one who can handle the bat and bunt and move runners along. It’s up to the powers-that-be to create a lineup in which a team can carry a weak link offensively at one spot in the order to take full advantage of his special talent in the field."Love to see us change the culture some and play this kid everyday. This kid's intelligence and baseball IQ are very high. I firmly believe he will "WILL" himself to being a decent all around player. And OH that defense! Lets face it, how many players are we currently putting on the field that have one OUTSTANDING skill?
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Post by dmaineah on Oct 1, 2012 10:55:11 GMT -5
He needs to be in AAA again next year. His offense is to weak to be in The Major Leagues. Any other assessment is just wishful thinking. I love his defense but he doesn't belong in Boston. He still needs lots of work at the plate, he's just not ready. Hate to say it because I know so many of you want him, but it's just this simple; He's not ready to hit at the Major League Level
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Post by soxcentral on Oct 1, 2012 11:47:45 GMT -5
He needs to be in AAA again next year. His offense is to weak to be in The Major Leagues. Any other assessment is just wishful thinking. I love his defense but he doesn't belong in Boston. He still needs lots of work at the plate, he's just not ready. Hate to say it because I know so many of you want him, but it's just this simple; He's not ready to hit at the Major League Level With a mindset that next year's team will be heavy on development of younger players in order to create a new championship core moving forward, why not keep Iglesias in Boston? I get that his bat could use more seasoning and thus may hurt the team at first, but will the extra time in AAA really help his development at all? Same argument that we had in the spring, facing lesser competition and gaining 'confidence' in AAA keeps him from being around the Pedroia and Ortiz-types that he appears to soak up knowledge from and could accelerate his progress at the plate.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 1, 2012 11:53:32 GMT -5
I think that if he cant hit .200, he wont start next year. Maybe if the team does terrible again and we realize there's no hope of being a competitive club next year then he will start, but that wont happen until midseason in all likelihood.
I've read that there's not much left to teach him in AAA though. My understanding is that e just needs reps. It will probably take 1500 PAs before he starts to hit much at all.
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Post by welovewally on Oct 1, 2012 12:16:51 GMT -5
I haven"t seen anything to suggest that he is ready to be a Major Leaguer other then good defense. Is that really enough? He can soak up knowledge and get to 1500 PAs at AAA. He should have to earn his way to Boston. And I hope he does!
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Post by jdb on Oct 1, 2012 12:35:06 GMT -5
I hope the staff can weigh in but I've read in several different places they think he needs MLB at bats to improve. He wasn't awful in AAA but he has to hit a little better. He just needs to not be an automatic out for his glove to play.
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Post by elguapo on Oct 1, 2012 12:36:12 GMT -5
Time to give him a full major league shot imo. He's a weak hitter so when he slumps he'll be nonexistent, but that's to be expected. He was struggling in Pawtucket until he turned it on one day. Worst case he plays himself back to AAA and Ciriaco or Aviles take over SS.
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Post by mainesox on Oct 1, 2012 12:57:30 GMT -5
As James pointed out, even at his current pace (.123/.219/.211) Iglesias would project to a 2.5-3.0 WAR player over the course of a full season - his defense has just been that good - but he also only has a .150 BABIP, and given his current batted ball data his BABIP should be closer to .250 (.254 according to xBABIP). Given a .254 BABIP (and assuming all of the added hits were singles - which is probably likely) he would have a .208/.297/.298 line, which would put him on pace for 4.0-4.5 WAR over a full season.
You could make the case that his UZR wont hold up at this pace over the course of a season, but even if you cut it in half he's still an above average player (2.0-2.5 WAR).
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Post by jmei on Oct 1, 2012 12:59:39 GMT -5
What better options are there? Ciriaco might have the worst plate discipline in the major leagues and Aviles is not farther behind. He's been godawful so far this year, but past scouting reports indicate he has the bat speed to at least hit in the .240-.260 range in the major leagues, albeit with very limited power and weak plate discipline. If he can break a .280 OBP, he's probably a better player than the alternative options given his truly elite defense.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 1, 2012 13:03:52 GMT -5
I've said it before, but I'll repeat - Iglesias has 783 Triple-A plate appearances. I just don't get what MORE time in Triple-A will do for him. Either he's ready or he's not going to be. It's not like he hadn't played baseball until he signed.
I'd like to see him start next season as the starting shortstop, with a decent Alex Cora-ish bench option if things start poorly. I can see an argument that he'll never hit enough and should be Triple-A depth. I don't get the argument that he needs more development time in the minors.
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Post by klostrophobic on Oct 1, 2012 13:10:14 GMT -5
There is no way that is even remotely true. You cannot OPS 430 and put up a 2.5 WAR. No.
His UZR/150 of 58.4 is about 5.5 times greater than the typical 10-12 UZR/150 you see from the best SS every year. Though occasionally you see someone hit 24-25 over a full year.
This is like if some guy came up and put up a 4.000 OPS over a full season.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 1, 2012 14:17:08 GMT -5
Iglesias made marked improvement this year at Pawtucket. He is physically getting stronger, and an off-season devoted to becoming even stronger yet will allow him to take advantage of his solid bat speed. Jose has other ways of helping us offensively (bunting, running the bases, etc.). We always, on this site, talk about a small sample size and how it is not to be taken too seriously. Some of you are doing that presently.
When you watch him play, he really "sees" the whole game so well. You can't teach this. In another life, I was a varsity basketball coach in New Jersey. Once in awhile I would run into a player that just saw so much more, and where the play was heading before it did. Jose is that type of player. I really believe he just needs to be allowed to play everyday and make adjustments.
Right now he is a wonderful insurance policy for a pitcher. They know if the ball is hit to the left he has a real chance to handle it. I would not be surprised if he saved 1 or 2 extra players coming up to bat every other game. When you watch the Texas Ranger's staff pitch now and what they did before NR (Nolan Ryan), their pitch counts and philosophy improved greatly. On short pop ups into left over his head, on turning double plays, on hot shots in the hole, or dribblers were he has to come in.......have you seen anyone much better?
There are quite a few players that play regular that have a BA of say .270 and have very little impact on the game that day. Iglesias will have a huge impact on every game just defensively by making the difficult play but also saving a pitcher on adding to his pitch count. Yes he may only hit .220 or .230 next year, but I bet he will improve to .250 or .260 the next.
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