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Post by pedroiayouk1520 on Oct 29, 2012 17:32:45 GMT -5
Brendan Ryan, the likely gold glove SS, batted .194 with a .555 OPS this year. He also had a 3.3 WAR; hopefully those offensive numbers are Iglesias' downside.
Does anyone know of any defensive metrics kept of Iglesias in the minor leagues that are useful?
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Post by jrffam05 on Oct 29, 2012 20:46:04 GMT -5
The way I see it is if you resign Ortiz and Ross and get a Napoli, laroche, Or Davis the lineup will be still be dynamic. It won't look as good on paper as when you had gonzo, Crawford, and youk but you have 20+ homer potential with Ortiz, middlebrooks, 1b signing, salty, and Ross (in Fenway). It's not the perfect lineup up but I would put it up against Baltimore, Oakland, and Pittsburgh any day.
Its not like it's James loney playing premium defense at a non premium position, shortstops add the most value from a defensive standpoint. Starting pitching seems to be the problem, and if we could force more double plays and ground outs it will help to keep Pitch count s lower and we can turn the ball over to a strong bullpen.
Iglesias is still pretty young and it seems like he has the tools to develope into a decent hitter. I maybe wrong but isn't he just about the age that middlebrooks really started looking like a top prospect?
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 29, 2012 21:01:03 GMT -5
Brendan Ryan, the likely gold glove SS, batted .194 with a .555 OPS this year. He also had a 3.3 WAR; hopefully those offensive numbers are Iglesias' downside. Does anyone know of any defensive metrics kept of Iglesias in the minor leagues that are useful? It just seems to me that Iglesias was pushed into age-advanced league situations that he wasn't ready for offensively because his defense was SO good that it was a waste to have him working his magic at Greenville or somewhere. If the organization was going to handle him that way because of his defense, then they need to be willing to bite the bullet, put him at SS in Boston, and tell him to do as well as he can offensively, but no pressure. Just vacuum up everything, that's all that is asked. Anything they get from him offensively is a bonus.
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Post by jpaul1210 on Oct 30, 2012 0:16:27 GMT -5
I say the sox start Iglesias at short for this season. Bogaerts is a much better hitter and isn't bad defensively. He can't play 3rd with middlebrooks there. If Iglesias starts to hit and shows promise then maybe the sox would transition Bogaerts to the OF. If Iglesias doesn't hit then the sox will have to figure out what to do with him in the offseason.
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Post by kindasweaty on Oct 30, 2012 1:39:54 GMT -5
It just seems to me that Iglesias was pushed into age-advanced league situations that he wasn't ready for offensively because his defense was SO good that it was a waste to have him working his magic at Greenville or somewhere. Does this logic not work for anyone else? It's the quality of the pitchers that changes, not the quality of the balls grounded to short, right?
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Oct 30, 2012 6:15:43 GMT -5
I say the sox start Iglesias at short for this season. Bogaerts is a much better hitter and isn't bad defensively. He can't play 3rd with middlebrooks there. If Iglesias starts to hit and shows promise then maybe the sox would transition Bogaerts to the OF. If Iglesias doesn't hit then the sox will have to figure out what to do with him in the offseason. This. Why not trot Iglesias out there in 2013 to see what you have? Maybe he hits .220 and his defense still gives him a 3+WAR a la Brendan Ryan. The Red Sox don't have too much to lose with a poor hit/good D #9 hitter, and if Bogaerts continues his rise through the minors, you have 1 of 2 things in Iglesias in about 2 years when Bogaerts is ready to play. Either his glove/bat pushes Bogaerts to the OF, or Iglesias is a trade chip to a team looking to upgrade defensively at SS to open the spot for Bogaerts.
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Post by jioh on Oct 30, 2012 19:57:22 GMT -5
It just seems to me that Iglesias was pushed into age-advanced league situations that he wasn't ready for offensively because his defense was SO good that it was a waste to have him working his magic at Greenville or somewhere. Does this logic not work for anyone else? It's the quality of the pitchers that changes, not the quality of the balls grounded to short, right? Yes, there is a logical problem here--or a historical one. The Sox put Iglesias in advanced leagues because they thought that because of his swing and hand-eye and batspeed he could handle it, despite his modest physique.
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Post by jro545454 on Oct 31, 2012 10:46:49 GMT -5
I say the sox start Iglesias at short for this season. Bogaerts is a much better hitter and isn't bad defensively. He can't play 3rd with middlebrooks there. If Iglesias starts to hit and shows promise then maybe the sox would transition Bogaerts to the OF. If Iglesias doesn't hit then the sox will have to figure out what to do with him in the offseason. This. Why not trot Iglesias out there in 2013 to see what you have? Maybe he hits .220 and his defense still gives him a 3+WAR a la Brendan Ryan. The Red Sox don't have too much to lose with a poor hit/good D #9 hitter, and if Bogaerts continues his rise through the minors, you have 1 of 2 things in Iglesias in about 2 years when Bogaerts is ready to play. Either his glove/bat pushes Bogaerts to the OF, or Iglesias is a trade chip to a team looking to upgrade defensively at SS to open the spot for Bogaerts. Agreed, let's see what we have in Iglesias. If he hits .260/.320/.350 next year would it surprise anyone? With his defense, that's a 4+ WAR player who turns 23 in January. He started to hit in PAW before hurting himself then he never got consistent AB's for the rest of the season. If he tanks all season then you move him around to other positions and develop and above average UT player.
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Post by jmei on Oct 31, 2012 14:44:57 GMT -5
Agreed, let's see what we have in Iglesias. If he hits .260/.320/.350 next year would it surprise anyone? I, for one, would be shocked. He's never topped a .072 ISO in the upper minors, for instance. A more reasonable optimistic projection might be .260/.300/.320, which would have him more valuable than Aviles and an above-average shortstop, especially given his defense.
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Post by sarasoxer on Oct 31, 2012 17:23:22 GMT -5
Agreed, let's see what we have in Iglesias. If he hits .260/.320/.350 next year would it surprise anyone? I, for one, would be shocked. He's never topped a .072 ISO in the upper minors, for instance. A more reasonable optimistic projection might be .260/.300/.320, which would have him more valuable than Aviles and an above-average shortstop, especially given his defense. Jmei I think that you are much closer to a probable stat line. I see Iglesias' realistic, optimistic stats at .220/280/300 in the first year. And, I don't care.Those stats would likely improve over time. Our team needs time to grow. We can suffer a year or two in that process for the greater longer term good. I would rather that we make judicious long term decisions than hamstring ourselves financially short term. Our team will likely never again have this fantastic financial chance to rebuild. We have taken the first, bold and unlikely step. Now, let's make the best decisions we can for a perennial competitive champion
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 31, 2012 17:43:46 GMT -5
I, for one, would be shocked. He's never topped a .072 ISO in the upper minors, for instance. A more reasonable optimistic projection might be .260/.300/.320, which would have him more valuable than Aviles and an above-average shortstop, especially given his defense. Jmei I think that you are much closer to a probable stat line. I see Iglesias' realistic, optimistic stats at .220/280/300 in the first year. And, I don't care.Those stats would likely improve over time. Our team needs time to grow. We can suffer a year or two in that process for the greater longer term good. I would rather that we make judicious long term decisions than hamstring ourselves financially short term. Our team will likely never again have this fantastic financial chance to rebuild. We have taken the first, bold and unlikely step. Now, let's make the best decisions we can for a perennial competitive champion Sarasoxer is right. Lets do this right. Competing in 2013 would be nice, but is not and should not be our real goal here. Lets build something solid and permanent. Igesias HAS gotten better and better, and no he will never be an outstanding hitter.....but the kid is smart.....and he will eventually be OK. We should probably have a pool on what he hits next season. I believe he will hit over .230 with 15 doubles and 15 steals.....if he comes to the plate over 450 times. He will give our pitchers a great deal of confidence!
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Post by buffs4444 on Oct 31, 2012 18:12:17 GMT -5
Unless Arizona wants him in a deal for Upton, he should be starting 150+ games in Boston next year.
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Post by soxcentral on Oct 31, 2012 19:43:41 GMT -5
Unless Arizona wants him in a deal for Upton, he should be starting 150+ games in Boston next year. Exactly.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 31, 2012 20:21:48 GMT -5
Lets do this right. Competing in 2013 would be nice, but is not and should not be our real goal here. Lets build something solid and permanent. Yes 1000 times!!! So well said and so correct!
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Nov 1, 2012 18:23:33 GMT -5
Iglesias belongs in AAA in '13, to start the year. Would have made more sense to let DeJesus play LF instead of Podsednick in SEPT ... DeJesus can be the UT backing up Ciriaco .... sign somebody for 1 year? ... the had Aviles.
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Post by mainesox on Nov 1, 2012 19:30:49 GMT -5
Stick Iglesias back in AAA again just to play Ciriaco? No thank you.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 1, 2012 21:23:46 GMT -5
Iglesias belongs in AAA in '13, to start the year. Would have made more sense to let DeJesus play LF instead of Podsednick in SEPT ... DeJesus can be the UT backing up Ciriaco .... sign somebody for 1 year? ... the had Aviles. No reason for that, really. Given the low expectations he should simply be placed at short on the major league club and left there. I think there will be more than enough offense from the rest of the lineup to carry his bat. Situations like this one, where many fans don't expect much from the team, have been few and far between. Take advantage of it. Other teams do this all the the time, with brilliant glove men given the opportunity for hitting OJT. Failure won't surprise. Success and you're a genius. You can't lose. Coming to you from the great Northwest.
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 1, 2012 21:38:05 GMT -5
Iglesias belongs in AAA in '13, to start the year. Would have made more sense to let DeJesus play LF instead of Podsednick in SEPT ... DeJesus can be the UT backing up Ciriaco .... sign somebody for 1 year? ... the had Aviles. No reason for that, really. Given the low expectations he should simply be placed at short on the major league club and left there. I think there will be more than enough offense from the rest of the lineup to carry his bat. Situations like this one, where many fans don't expect much from the team, have been few and far between. Take advantage of it. Other teams do this all the the time, with brilliant glove men given the opportunity for hitting OJT. Failure won't surprise. Success and you're a genius. You can't lose. Coming to you from the great Northwest. Coming at you from the great Northeast, who will provide the "more than enough offense from the rest of the lineup'" to make up for Iglesias' lack of offensive production? Papi looks to go on the free market. Cody is no sure bet. We have no right fielder, unless you're counting on Sweeney and/or Kalish for power and run produtcion. Right now, Mauro is our first baseman. I love Jose's talents and he is exciting to watch. But who in this lineup is going to cover for him? It looks like you're relying on Cherington to provide that cover for our probable shortstop. Don't see it as of now.
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Post by jmei on Nov 1, 2012 21:50:17 GMT -5
What option would you play ahead of Iglesias? Once Aviles was sent to Toronto, the last viable alternative to Iglesias was removed. Ciriaco might literally have the worst plate discipline in the major leagues and has little-to-no upside. Stephen Drew, Marco Scutaro, and Jason Bartlett are the best available free agents-- enough said. The trade market for productive shortstops is always barren. There appears to be no real alternative to Jose getting his long-awaited chance at SS, and that's a good thing-- Iglesias has a chance to be an above-average shortstop who is under team control for reasonable money, and assuming the team isn't going to be in contention in 2013, little matters more than his continued development at the major league level.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 1, 2012 22:32:45 GMT -5
No reason for that, really. Given the low expectations he should simply be placed at short on the major league club and left there. I think there will be more than enough offense from the rest of the lineup to carry his bat. Situations like this one, where many fans don't expect much from the team, have been few and far between. Take advantage of it. Other teams do this all the the time, with brilliant glove men given the opportunity for hitting OJT. Failure won't surprise. Success and you're a genius. You can't lose. Coming to you from the great Northwest. Coming at you from the great Northeast, who will provide the "more than enough offense from the rest of the lineup'" to make up for Iglesias' lack of offensive production? Papi looks to go on the free market. Cody is no sure bet. We have no right fielder, unless you're counting on Sweeney and/or Kalish for power and run produtcion. Right now, Mauro is our first baseman. I love Jose's talents and he is exciting to watch. But who in this lineup is going to cover for him? It looks like you're relying on Cherington to provide that cover for our probable shortstop. Don't see it as of now. How about this: let them give Brentz a shot. While he still has a way to go when it comes to his plate approach, so does Ross. I'd be willing to lay money down they'd get better production at a tenth of the cost. Is Brentz a finished product? Of course not. But neither is Cody Ross and he's 31 years old. As for Ortiz, that's not a done deal. I'm more than willing to let the team put something together before I panic. They need to play these guys and this is a golden opportunity. Other teams do it all the time and they succeed. This team has been under such pressure to win at all costs, it hasn't done that. The last time they tried it, Pedroia was just about thrown under the bus. It's a 162 game season. Rookies build on their success. They become players. Reddick could have done in Boston exactly what he did in Oakland. It was never about him "not being able to take the pressure". It was about expectations, about management "not being able to take the pressure". Dump those and go with the flow I say. Time for youth to be heard.
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Post by mainesox on Nov 1, 2012 23:03:32 GMT -5
Put it another way: the difference in Iglesias' offense and any other SS they may get's production isn't going to make or break this team next year. Either they've built a competitive team, in which case you can live with Iglesias' bat at 9th, or they haven't and it doesn't matter if he produces anyway.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 2, 2012 0:40:52 GMT -5
How about this: let them give Brentz a shot. While he still has a way to go when it comes to his plate approach, so does Ross. I'd be willing to lay money down they'd get better production at a tenth of the cost. Is Brentz a finished product? Of course not. But neither is Cody Ross and he's 31 years old. As for Ortiz, that's not a done deal. I'm more than willing to let the team put something together before I panic. They need to play these guys and this is a golden opportunity. Other teams do it all the time and they succeed. This team has been under such pressure to win at all costs, it hasn't done that. The last time they tried it, Pedroia was just about thrown under the bus. It's a 162 game season. Rookies build on their success. They become players. Reddick could have done in Boston exactly what he did in Oakland. It was never about him "not being able to take the pressure". It was about expectations, about management "not being able to take the pressure". Dump those and go with the flow I say. Time for youth to be heard. I'm all for giving the kids a shot, but let's look at the upside and downside of putting Brentz in the Majors to start the year. Upside: -proves to be a viable big league player Downside: -fails and becomes out of whack mechanically/mentally causing short or long term struggles -starts his service time early - losing the number of years of team control when/if he is good -likely performs at a lower level than a 1-2 year rental veteran I like the idea, and if Brentz was a super prospect (e.g. Pujols) then would be all for it. But I think we have better options at this time. Keep in mind, the best run team in baseball (the Rays) tightly conserve the number years they have their prospects in the Major in order to maximize their long term value. As much as we want to see the kids early, i think we need to be conservative in most cases.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 2, 2012 13:40:13 GMT -5
Let's keep the Jose Iglesias thread about Jose Iglesias. With the roster as presently constructed, Iglesias is your opening day SS. Pedro Ciriaco had literally the worst plate discipline of any player in the majors last year. I'm sorry, but he's not a major league regular. Anyone who thinks Pedro Ciriaco should play regularly in the majors please read this: www.overthemonster.com/2012/9/6/3296257/pedro-ciriaco-and-not-having-a-plan-at-the-plateThe question is whether the Sox will acquire another shortstop during the offseason. As much as the fan in me that has a major man-crush on Iglesias' glove would love to see what happens with Iglesias, I'm afraid they might look elsewhere.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 9, 2012 17:39:06 GMT -5
With rumors swirling about with Jose possibly starting next year... what are the chances this happens?
I would be totally cool with giving him 250 at bats out of the gate Pedroia style... No matter what he hits he is the starter to see if he can rise. I am only cool with that given the backup plan is to use any further at bats to bring up our top prospect.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 9, 2012 18:03:04 GMT -5
A veteran SS/Utility Infielder that can play SS everyday (like Mike Aviles) needs to be added to the roster and Iglesis should compete for the starting job during spring training but if all he does is what he did last year (in the Majors & Minors) he should be sent back to AAA. He has not shown that he deserves to get the opening day assignment or "250 ABs out of the gate Pedro style"
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