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7/21-7/24 Red Sox @ Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by okin15 on Jul 22, 2014 12:40:55 GMT -5
The problem was that an injury splits up the platoon and made it way worse, where you're playing Gomes in LF and Nava in RF against pitching that turns one of them basically into good hitting pitchers. Holt saved us from seeing that. Carp was brought in only because we were unsure of how Napoli was going to hold up. He is a backup DH on this team who might be slightly better than Nava at 1B. We didn't and don't need him and couldn't afford the roster spot. I wouldn't have held out for a top prospect. You didn't really answer the question on who you would have brought in? There wasn't a much better option. Plus, half that platoon coulda been split up if Carp had been healthy to play LF... or if WMB had been healthy to play LF in place of Nava. Don't pretend that injuries didn't play a part. The season really hasn't been that different from them getting rid of Carp and Sizemore in ST, except that those guys contributed to an offense where every player* played worse than expected for the first two months. *except maybe Xander? Do we think he'll a complex that the Sox win only when he's not hitting?
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 12:42:59 GMT -5
The problem was that an injury splits up the platoon and made it way worse, where you're playing Gomes in LF and Nava in RF against pitching that turns one of them basically into good hitting pitchers. Holt saved us from seeing that. Carp was brought in only because we were unsure of how Napoli was going to hold up. He is a backup DH on this team who might be slightly better than Nava at 1B. We didn't and don't need him and couldn't afford the roster spot. I wouldn't have held out for a top prospect. You didn't really answer the question on who you would have brought in. There wasn't a much better option. Plus, half that platoon coulda been split up if Carp had been healthy to play LF... or if WMB had been healthy to play LF in place of Nava. Don't pretend that injuries didn't play a part. The season really hasn't been that different from them getting rid of Carp and Sizemore in ST, except that those guys contributed to an offense where every player* played worse than expected for the first two months. *except maybe Xander? Do we think he'll a complex that the Sox win only when he's not hitting?I've made about 500 posts about this. No more. The point I tried to make is that it is/was dumb to hold out for "a top prospect for Carp".
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Post by okin15 on Jul 22, 2014 12:53:42 GMT -5
The point I tried to make is that it is/was dumb to hold out for "a top prospect for Carp". got it. if that's what they were doing, then i agree.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 22, 2014 12:55:37 GMT -5
Ben wasn't holding on to Carp to try to get a top prospect back, he saw Carp as a future contributor, and would only part with him for a top prospect. Big difference. Carp was great last year albeit a small sample size. When he was acquired he was thought of by many as a guy who scouted better than his line represented, and Ben probably caught a whiff of that during the 2013 season.
Edit: are we talking about the Astro's leak? I think it was cited that they would want an actual prospect back, not top.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 22, 2014 12:57:05 GMT -5
The point I tried to make is that it is/was dumb to hold out for "a top prospect for Carp". got it. if that's what they were doing, then i agree. That's such a strawman argument. You make a false statement. Carp wasn't dealt for a top prospect. Who said that's what we were holding out for? Then say, we should have dealt him instead of holding out for a top prospect.
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Post by jmei on Jul 22, 2014 13:07:29 GMT -5
The point I tried to make is that it is/was dumb to hold out for "a top prospect for Carp". Is there any reason you think the front office did so? I just quickly looked through MLBTR and found no reports indicating that Cherington was holding out for a "top prospect" for Carp. The closest thing to that was this tweet suggesting that he "wouldn't come cheaply," but that's about it. Meanwhile, we have this article suggesting that the Red Sox were unlikely to trade Carp because they couldn't get "something particularly interesting" for him and this tweet suggesting that Carp was grouped together with guys like John Mayberry and Tyler Moore on the Astros' wishlist. I was a big proponent of "trade Carp, get a fourth outfielder" this offseason, too (see, e.g., here). But I was working under the assumption that other teams were willing to give up real value for him (I remember floating a Josh Bell for Carp proposal, one that looks outlandish in hindsight), which doesn't look to have been the case. If they weren't going to get back much for him, it probably made sense to hold onto him.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 13:10:14 GMT -5
The point I tried to make is that it is/was dumb to hold out for "a top prospect for Carp". Is there any reason you think the front office did so? I just quickly looked through MLBTR and found no reports indicating that Cherington was holding out for a "top prospect" for Carp. The closest thing to that was this tweet suggesting that he "wouldn't come cheaply," but that's about it. Meanwhile, we have this article suggesting that the Red Sox were unlikely to trade Carp because they couldn't get "something particularly interesting" for him and this tweet suggesting that Carp was grouped together with guys like John Mayberry and Tyler Moore on the Astros' wishlist. I was a big proponent of "trade Carp, get a fourth outfielder" this offseason, too (see, e.g., here). But I was working under the assumption that other teams were willing to give up real value for him (I remember floating a Josh Bell for Carp proposal, one that looks outlandish in hindsight), which doesn't look to have been the case. If they weren't going to get back much for him, it probably made sense to hold onto him. The season results suggest otherwise. Imagine this team without Holt in RF who no one on the planet predicted. Even if Carp never got hurt, what was he going to do for this team other than keep Nava in the minors and play terrible defense?
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 22, 2014 13:10:57 GMT -5
This was the quote from the Astro leak I spoke about.
12/19/2013
[Luhnow] reached out to [Ben Cherington] on Carp. BC said that they likely value Carp more than other Clubs and would likely want real prospect value in return.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2014 13:11:21 GMT -5
So many things wrong with the first two paragraphs: Antonelis reaction: Mike Antonellis ?@seadogsradio 5m RT @milb: The #BlueJays are reportedly calling up top prospect Aaron Sanchez to help the big club's bullpen: atmilb.com/1o6fv6u Wow
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 13:13:19 GMT -5
This was the quote from the Astro leak I spoke about. 12/19/2013 [Luhnow] reached out to [Ben Cherington] on Carp. BC said that they likely value Carp more than other Clubs and would likely want real prospect value in return. That's what I think is stupid. It's one thing to like Carp, it's another to recognize that you can't afford a 25-man roster spot for a backup DH.
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Post by jmei on Jul 22, 2014 13:22:52 GMT -5
Is there any reason you think the front office did so? I just quickly looked through MLBTR and found no reports indicating that Cherington was holding out for a "top prospect" for Carp. The closest thing to that was this tweet suggesting that he "wouldn't come cheaply," but that's about it. Meanwhile, we have this article suggesting that the Red Sox were unlikely to trade Carp because they couldn't get "something particularly interesting" for him and this tweet suggesting that Carp was grouped together with guys like John Mayberry and Tyler Moore on the Astros' wishlist. I was a big proponent of "trade Carp, get a fourth outfielder" this offseason, too (see, e.g., here). But I was working under the assumption that other teams were willing to give up real value for him (I remember floating a Josh Bell for Carp proposal, one that looks outlandish in hindsight), which doesn't look to have been the case. If they weren't going to get back much for him, it probably made sense to hold onto him. The season results suggest otherwise. Imagine this team without Holt in RF who no one on the planet predicted. Even if Carp never got hurt, what was he going to do for this team other than keep Nava in the minors and play terrible defense? Even with the power of hindsight, DFAing Mike Carp and replacing his roster spot with Chris Young or Franklin Gutierrez would not have made this team any better. The real mistake was relying on Grady Sizemore, not keeping Mike Carp.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 13:47:18 GMT -5
Both really, given that Nava or JBJ had to be in the minors with the entire OF healthy.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 22, 2014 13:47:25 GMT -5
The real mistake was relying on Grady Sizemore, not keeping Mike Carp. I'll argue that both would have been fine in the short run if JBJ, Gomes and Nava hadn't been black holes (even on the strong side of the platoon), Pedey hadn't been a number 8 hitter, Napoli, Carp, WMB and Vic hadn't all been hurt at once (plus Nap, Carp and WMB being black holes while healthy early), and our Catcher hadn't been a free swinger who also made Doubront and Peavy into terrible pitchers (that last part might be a little scape-goaty, granted). Both really, given that Nava or JBJ had to be in the minors with the entire OF healthy. Which happened for what, 8 games? That's why you keep depth early in the season... and pray it's not all hurt at once.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 13:54:49 GMT -5
The real mistake was relying on Grady Sizemore, not keeping Mike Carp. I'll argue that both would have been fine in the short run if JBJ, Gomes and Nava hadn't been black holes (even on the strong side of the platoon), Pedey hadn't been a number 8 hitter, Napoli, Carp, WMB and Vic hadn't all been hurt at once (plus Nap, Carp and WMB being black holes while healthy early), and our Catcher hadn't been a free swinger who also made Doubront and Peavy into terrible pitchers (that last part might be a little scape-goaty, granted). Both really, given that Nava or JBJ had to be in the minors with the entire OF healthy. Which happened for what, 8 games? That's why you keep depth early in the season... and pray it's not all hurt at once. From day 1, we could not handle an injury in CF or RF. We had like 4 LFers.
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Post by mattpicard on Jul 22, 2014 14:07:01 GMT -5
CF Brock Holt 2B Dustin Pedroia DH David Ortiz 1B Mike Napoli LF Jonny Gomes RF Shane Victorino SS Stephen Drew 3B Xander Bogaerts C David Ross RHP Jake Peavy Facing J.A. Happ today, thought I'd share this tweet from High Heat Stats: J.A. Happ: 4.91 ERA, 4.29 FIP, 7-5 record Jake Peavy: 4.59 ERA, 4.72 FIP, 1-11 record
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Post by Guidas on Jul 22, 2014 14:19:44 GMT -5
And now the true test of a winning streak - "Pitching for Boston, Jake Peavy…"
Let's hope we broke enough of their pen last night to make a difference.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,873
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Post by cdj on Jul 22, 2014 14:26:14 GMT -5
Can we score this guy a damn run or 4 tonight, geez.
I've never seen an offense consistently crap the bed for a single pitcher more than this one. Let's carry over from last night and give him a 2nd win.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 22, 2014 14:33:34 GMT -5
The real mistake was relying on Grady Sizemore, not keeping Mike Carp. I'll argue that both would have been fine in the short run if JBJ, Gomes and Nava hadn't been black holes (even on the strong side of the platoon), Pedey hadn't been a number 8 hitter, Napoli, Carp, WMB and Vic hadn't all been hurt at once (plus Nap, Carp and WMB being black holes while healthy early), and our Catcher hadn't been a free swinger who also made Doubront and Peavy into terrible pitchers (that last part might be a little scape-goaty, granted). Both really, given that Nava or JBJ had to be in the minors with the entire OF healthy. Which happened for what, 8 games? That's why you keep depth early in the season... and pray it's not all hurt at once. In my mind the collapse of the Gomes/ nava platoon hurt the sox badly at the start of the year. Bradley, they knew was going to struggle. Victorino, they knew was a banana. Losing production from the 5 hole in the lineup, crashed the offense.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 22, 2014 15:20:48 GMT -5
It wasn't one position, it was nearly all of them. No one is having an All-Star season, or at least they weren't. The FA they could have signed who would have had an impact was Cruz. But they didn't sign him for various reasons, not the least of which was that he was another LF. It isn't reasonable to think they should have assumed the Nava-Gomes platooning was going to break down the way it did.
However, it is reasonable to blame them for taking too many risks with the other OF positions and with the infield. And Cherington has admitted he did not assemble a team with enough offense. I think it is time to stop beating him up about this and focus on the fact that the team is interesting again.
I don't think they will make the playoffs. I think they could finish second in the East, but it is going to be very difficult to catch Seattle. And if the Sox do that well, it will be very encouraging for next year.
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Post by nexus on Jul 22, 2014 15:59:40 GMT -5
Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's everything, but the Red Sox pitching staff collectively has a 2.11ERA/2.98FIP since Vazquez and Ross became the exclusive receivers.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jul 22, 2014 16:05:35 GMT -5
It wasn't one position, it was nearly all of them. No one is having an All-Star season, or at least they weren't. The FA they could have signed who would have had an impact was Cruz. But they didn't sign him for various reasons, not the least of which was that he was another LF. It isn't reasonable to think they should have assumed the Nava-Gomes platooning was going to break down the way it did. However, it is reasonable to blame them for taking too many risks with the other OF positions and with the infield. And Cherington has admitted he did not assemble a team with enough offense. I think it is time to stop beating him up about this and focus on the fact that the team is interesting again. I don't think they will make the playoffs. I think they could finish second in the East, but it is going to be very difficult to catch Seattle. And if the Sox do that well, it will be very encouraging for next year. Peachy. That should get them about the worst draft slot for the non-playoff teams, and a non-protected pick. As a season ticket holder of the Washington Capitals I just went through that. Don't need it again.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jul 22, 2014 17:00:23 GMT -5
With Vazquez and Ross now the catching tandem for the foreseeable future, what is a fair assessment of where the Sox now rank in terms of team catching defense? Top 5 in MLB?
Say what you will about the warts of this team, but one of the oldest tenets in baseball is the need for defense up the middle. With Drew at SS and JBJ in CF, it would seem that this team now has it in spades.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jul 22, 2014 18:09:57 GMT -5
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Post by redsox4242 on Jul 22, 2014 18:19:47 GMT -5
LETS GO RED SOX!!!
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Post by redsox4242 on Jul 22, 2014 18:33:59 GMT -5
looks like it will be one of those games where we won't be scoring much runs, not that i am surprised after scoring 14 runs last night.
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