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8/29-9/1 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on Aug 31, 2014 15:11:14 GMT -5
Tradest not the Mookie, Ben. Buyest thou pitchers and offer ye thine others from the flocks, but tradest not the Mookie (or the Swihart or the Devers) for he is chosen above the others. Truth 1:50
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 31, 2014 15:20:27 GMT -5
Tradest not the Mookie, Ben. Buyest thou pitchers and offer ye thine others from the flocks, but tradest not the Mookie (or the Swihart or the Devers) for he is chosen above the others. Truth 1:50 Amen brother and lol.
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 31, 2014 15:23:58 GMT -5
All the "Trade/Cut Buchholz" folks seem to have gone on hiatus during these last few games. Or have y'all joined us who still believe he can be a solid #2 starter when healthy? It is not that can he be good it is will he be good. There is no way I would count on Clay to be anything but crappy when building a team for next year. If he happens to be the good Clay great love to have you for as long as it lasts. If he sucks no big deal because I was not counting on anything out of him anyway. I've always loved the guy but he has worn may *** out.
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Post by redsox4242 on Aug 31, 2014 15:34:26 GMT -5
Great outing for Clay.
9 innings 3 hits 0 runs ZERO walks 6 k's. this is a very encouraging outing.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 31, 2014 15:36:06 GMT -5
Great win. Screw the draft choices. 16-0 run coming up to get to .500.
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Post by mredsox89 on Aug 31, 2014 15:50:56 GMT -5
If you can go into the season expecting Buchholz/Kelly to be the 3/4 starters, I think they're fine.
Both are relatively cost controlled and the Sox can easily move on from either if necessary. It's when they are counted on as the 2/3 when the Sox could be in trouble
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Post by larrycook on Aug 31, 2014 15:59:51 GMT -5
Tremendous game by Buchholz.
A weird series thus far with Tampa. Hopefully we can get a win tomorrow and take the series.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 31, 2014 16:25:27 GMT -5
All the "Trade/Cut Buchholz" folks seem to have gone on hiatus during these last few games. Or have y'all joined us who still believe he can be a solid #2 starter when healthy? I'm not a trade him or DFA him guy. I'm a hope for the best expect the worse guy. After 7 or 8 years and on the downside of 30(he's only 7 or 8 months younger than Lester) He is what he is and more likely to fade in the coming year or 2 than Lester. The fact that this past off season he said his idea of eating healthy is cooking a burger at home over eating out was telling.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 31, 2014 16:51:03 GMT -5
Boy, if we had a redo of the 2014 season I'd bet this game is what Ben envisioned.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 31, 2014 18:31:48 GMT -5
Boy, if we had a redo of the 2014 season I'd bet this game is what Ben envisioned. Yeah, but there's really no way to redo the winnowing process where you start to work your way through the emerging minor league talent, and gradually jettison players whose day has come and gone (I'm looking at you AJ...). That's even as you rely on the pitching talent to right itself as in the case of Buchholz. It's just one of those years where a lot of stuff goes wrong, even as we start to get a glimmer of what might be. I think the team is well-positioned given the talent they've accumulated, to make strong moves in the off-season. They just need to be smart about those moves.
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Post by marrcus on Aug 31, 2014 18:54:02 GMT -5
pitching talent to right itself as in the case of Buchholz." --------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope he has three more starts like this one. It would be great to trade him on an uptick and maybe get .90 on the dollar. Suffice it to say he's a big talent whom I don't trust. I'd love to have the real Clay but that has shown to be quite elusive.
From the little I know of his wife she's probably a good influence. Let's just say she seems determined. That said we've seen what he's like with her, I'd hate to see what he'd be like without her.
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Post by godot on Aug 31, 2014 19:21:31 GMT -5
Boy, if we had a redo of the 2014 season I'd bet this game is what Ben envisioned. Yeah, but there's really no way to redo the winnowing process where you start to work your way through the emerging minor league talent, and gradually jettison players whose day has come and gone (I'm looking at you AJ...). That's even as you rely on the pitching talent to right itself as in the case of Buchholz. It's just one of those years where a lot of stuff goes wrong, even as we start to get a glimmer of what might be. I think the team is well-positioned given the talent they've accumulated, to make strong moves in the off-season. They just need to be smart about those moves. Egad Sparky, what a bunch of cliques and "chamber of commerce" spins. Working their way through "emerging talent" that really wasn't ready but were cheap, and a glimpse of things to come, really now. Let's see we can be positive about Mookie and Vasquez's defense (no great shakes as a hitter although will hold his own for a catcher). Is Webster a glimpse of the future? How much can we count on Workman? Ranuado is ok, and Ruddy has potential for a middle of the rotation guy. Not even going to bother with Bradley, and Xander has a lot of work to do, probably best done in AAA. So again who will be the shortstop and how adequate? Same goes for third, and the pitching staff is now a question mark. Not even going to go into the pen. So it is one of those years where a lot of stuff goes wrong". What the hey does that mean? Was it just all bad luck and decisions and policies had nothing to do with it? Yeah, nothing systemic, just like the explanation early in the year given as to why they were not scoring runs, hitting into bad luck. Voodoo baseball.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,911
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 31, 2014 20:04:28 GMT -5
I don't get it. It seems that every team the Red Sox face has pitchers, multiple pitchers, who throw 98,99 even 100. Not one of the Sox pitchers comes close to that on a regular basis. Most of the minor leaguers don't, either. How did that happen? Well, De La Rosa routinely hits 98 in his starts but that fastball is pretty flat. The rest of our minor league guys' velo has been slowed down by hype as thick as hot tar. Thanks for supplying more evidence to my assertion that human beings are incapable of judging FB movement by eye (we can do armside run to some degree, but can't do rise at all). Movement on an average MLB four-seamer is about 9.2" +/- 1.8. Rubby this year, 10.9", a bit up from his career 10.7". In fact, in my database of career fastball movement, 466 guys strong, there are precisely four guys with both more rise and more run than Rubby in his career: Matt Moore, Brett Oberholtzer, Alex Wood, and David Price. (That's a bit of a gimmick because there probably isn't an advantage to having both rise and run be roughly equal. Hmm ... the relative importance of rise and run is something I can look at it when I redo that study of fastball effectiveness.)
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Post by godot on Aug 31, 2014 20:17:15 GMT -5
How do you measure rise, and while "eye contact" may be unreliable from a certain angle like in the stands or TV, how unreliable is it if you are up and close like facing the pitcher?
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Post by larrycook on Aug 31, 2014 20:26:31 GMT -5
I am not talented enough to judge movement based on what I see in the stands and on tv, I have to rely on the sound of bat on ball from the hitters.
That tells me if the hitters can square it up or not.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 31, 2014 20:45:38 GMT -5
...Egad Sparky, what a bunch of cliques and "chamber of commerce" spins. Working their way through "emerging talent" that really wasn't ready but were cheap, and a glimpse of things to come, really now. Let's see we can be positive about Mookie and Vasquez's defense (no great shakes as a hitter although will hold his own for a catcher). Is Webster a glimpse of the future? How much can we count on Workman? Ranuado is ok, and Ruddy has potential for a middle of the rotation guy. Not even going to bother with Bradley, and Xander has a lot of work to do, probably best done in AAA. So again who will be the shortstop and how adequate? Same goes for third, and the pitching staff is now a question mark. Not even going to go into the pen. So it is one of those years where a lot of stuff goes wrong". What the hey does that mean? Was it just all bad luck and decisions and policies had nothing to do with it? Yeah, nothing systemic, just like the explanation early in the year given as to why they were not scoring runs, hitting into bad luck. Voodoo baseball. I believe that's cliches, Egad. Go back and read the threads from the pre-season. The team screwed up quite a bit, and a few posters, including jmei, pointed it out before the season started. He was concerned about the lack of outfield depth, and I suggested that counting on Sizemore and Victorino with little depth to back wasn't a good idea. After that, throwing Nava under the bus only made it worse. Add to that the decision to bring in Pierzynski, something which had me holding my nose early on, and there were lots of signs this wouldn't be a team headed to the WS. All that said, a lot of us - myself included - suggested that last year's win bought the team a bunch of goodwill, and that would let them rummage through the minor league system to see what they had. I also suggested it might take a while. That's exactly what they've done. Instead of being bitter and angry, check out what Will Myers, Gregory Polanco, and Oscar Taveras have done, this year. They're right there with Bradley and Bogaeerts. As for your disdain for those young players, you might want to wait it out a bit longer than a season which hasn't even ended yet. Have you heard the names Jed Lowrie, Steve Pearce, Scott Kazmir, Brandon Moss? How long have you been a fan? Like I said, go back and read the threads. Some of us aren't sour because we didn't expect it to be all sweetness and light. That's baseball.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 31, 2014 20:47:36 GMT -5
I thought science debunked the idea of the rising fastball years ago. I was sure Nolan Ryan's ball rose but accepted what smarter people came up with. I must of missed something.
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Post by ethanbein on Aug 31, 2014 21:42:36 GMT -5
I thought science debunked the idea of the rising fastball years ago. I was sure Nolan Ryan's ball rose but accepted what smarter people came up with. I must of missed something. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think the "rise" Eric is referring to is just falling slower than expected from gravity.
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Post by godot on Aug 31, 2014 21:49:41 GMT -5
Norm, you are probably a nice guy, but you are a revisionist. . You were touting Bradley and Xander, along with saying the Sox's hitting problems were hitting int bad luck but you now have changed change course and cannot admit that you wee wrong. . You also did not refute my sloppy analysis. Sorry, can't take you seriously.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 31, 2014 22:00:50 GMT -5
we got our trade of Johnson by 8-31. The 9-1 excitement is now upon us.
Is Verdugo in Tampa? Will the few additions happen on 9-2 in NY rather than fly extras to TB for one game?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 31, 2014 22:52:12 GMT -5
Norm, you are probably a nice guy, but you are a revisionist. . You were touting Bradley and Xander, along with saying the Sox's hitting problems were hitting int bad luck but you now have changed change course and cannot admit that you wee wrong. . You also did not refute my sloppy analysis. Sorry, can't take you seriously. Want to know something? I'm still touting them. And no, it's stay the course.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 31, 2014 23:18:07 GMT -5
Norm, you are probably a nice guy, but you are a revisionist. . You were touting Bradley and Xander, along with saying the Sox's hitting problems were hitting int bad luck but you now have changed change course and cannot admit that you wee wrong. . You also did not refute my sloppy analysis. Sorry, can't take you seriously. So are you trying to make a point about the Red Sox or are you just trying to belittle people?
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 1, 2014 0:00:02 GMT -5
Thanks for supplying more evidence to my assertion that human beings are incapable of judging FB movement by eye (we can do armside run to some degree, but can't do rise at all). Movement on an average MLB four-seamer is about 9.2" +/- 1.8. Rubby this year, 10.9", a bit up from his career 10.7". Doesn't having a lot of "rise" per PitchF/X mean exactly the same thing as saying the fastball is "flat", as "rise" is just "not falling"? If you want to prove that the human eye can't tell the difference in movement, you have to provide calibration first, since as far as I understand it the PitchF/X zero point is kinda arbitrary.
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cdj
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Posts: 13,870
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Post by cdj on Sept 1, 2014 0:11:11 GMT -5
Tradest not the Mookie, Ben. Buyest thou pitchers and offer ye thine others from the flocks, but tradest not the Mookie (or the Swihart or the Devers) for he is chosen above the others. Truth 1:50 Ammmmmmmmeeeeeennnnnnnnnn Halelujah! Praise Mookie. He is here to stay.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Sept 1, 2014 5:35:09 GMT -5
60-76 teams think 2 great starts make up for a dozen crappy ones. I'm hoping he finishes great and Theo still has the hots for him. Can't count on him. 2012 all over for Clay. Sucked when it counted. Good finish. Maybe a low pressure market is best for him.
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