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9/26-9/28 Red Sox vs. Yankees Series Thread
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 12:39:59 GMT -5
Wow, they deleted about 900 comments from that one. I had fun in that for awhile.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 29, 2014 12:41:33 GMT -5
Wow, they deleted about 900 comments from that one. I had fun in that for awhile. Same haha. The top two right now still are pretty funny though.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 12:43:32 GMT -5
I hate that Goldman made me argue that ARod was such a better SS than Jeter.
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Post by jmei on Sept 29, 2014 12:55:28 GMT -5
I don't think you can just look at regular season WAR when ranking Jeter. He's got an entire season-plus of elite hitting in the postseason. I'm sorry, but that counts. Playoffs games are real things that exist. And Jeter had a whole lot of playoff games that other players didn't get, where he had a career postseason wRC+ 2 points higher than his career regular season wRC+. Imagine if he was unfortunate enough to play before the wild-card years, before the divisional series years on teams that weren't as good. He wouldn't have had nearly as many chances to show he is basically the exact same hitter in the post season that he is in the regular season. Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Sept 29, 2014 13:01:36 GMT -5
I hate that Goldman made me argue that ARod was such a better SS than Jeter. He started off being very anti-white when talking about Wagner. Courageous piece of literature. It was pretty much like Michael Kay took adderall and wrote everything that came to mind.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 13:39:04 GMT -5
And Jeter had a whole lot of playoff games that other players didn't get, where he had a career postseason wRC+ 2 points higher than his career regular season wRC+. Imagine if he was unfortunate enough to play before the wild-card years, before the divisional series years on teams that weren't as good. He wouldn't have had nearly as many chances to show he is basically the exact same hitter in the post season that he is in the regular season. Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype. He is no Papi with a career 148 wRC+ vs. career 138 regular season.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 29, 2014 15:02:11 GMT -5
And Jeter had a whole lot of playoff games that other players didn't get, where he had a career postseason wRC+ 2 points higher than his career regular season wRC+. Imagine if he was unfortunate enough to play before the wild-card years, before the divisional series years on teams that weren't as good. He wouldn't have had nearly as many chances to show he is basically the exact same hitter in the post season that he is in the regular season. Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype. Just from that description, that seems like cherry-picking a little bit ... I think a better question is, how is Jeter relative to the norm of playoff offensive environment compared to how he is during the regular season? I mean, this seems like an area with a lot of small samples in individual players (Lou Brock absolutely kicked a** in the World Series he was in, iirc) and a lot of received wisdom about how tough it is to hit in the cold or in the playoffs. May be true, may not be, but has anyone actually looked at this with some rigor?
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 29, 2014 15:21:30 GMT -5
Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype. He is no Papi with a career 148 wRC+ vs. career 138 regular season. \ True. I wonder what the celebratory tour will be for Papi. I hope that we have a quiet, modest celebration at Fenway. The Jeter thing was a phenomenon that I hope is not repeated any time soon. It was so overboard, I'm surprised that the announcers did not recount all his fabulous dating conquests....or have a few women appear cooing that his hands are just as good away from the diamond.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 15:25:19 GMT -5
He is no Papi with a career 148 wRC+ vs. career 138 regular season. \ True. I wonder what the celebratory tour will be for Papi. I hope that we have a quiet, modest celebration at Fenway. The Jeter thing was a phenomenon that I hope is not repeated any time soon. It was so overboard, I'm surprised that the announcers did not recount all his fabulous dating conquests....or have a few women appear cooing that his hands are just as good away from the diamond. Papi has already thankfully said that he'd announce his retirement after he's done playing like normal players.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 29, 2014 16:03:42 GMT -5
My problem with Jeter remained the same as it ever was right until the final merciful weekend. I was listening to the Sox radio broadcast, and O'Brien was discussing that Jeter was an excellent defensive shortstop, while Castiglione made the even-more eye-popping statement that Jeter never made news off the field and stayed out of the tabloids. Why isn't Jeter being arguably the greatest hitting shortstop in history good enough? Why is it necessary to bestow on him all these other skills that he didn't have in order to deify him? Why, instead of arguing that Jeter is great, did his defenders instead feel the need to argue that he is perfect?
Derek Jeter was a bad defensive player who had lots of famous girlfriends and was such an goddamn unbelievable hitter that it didn't matter. Isn't that cooler?
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Post by johnsilver52 on Sept 29, 2014 16:20:58 GMT -5
Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype. Just from that description, that seems like cherry-picking a little bit ... I think a better question is, how is Jeter relative to the norm of playoff offensive environment compared to how he is during the regular season? I mean, this seems like an area with a lot of small samples in individual players (Lou Brock absolutely kicked a** in the World Series he was in, iirc) and a lot of received wisdom about how tough it is to hit in the cold or in the playoffs. May be true, may not be, but has anyone actually looked at this with some rigor? I'll go with that statement..Lou Brock was the player Jete wishes, or maybe thinks he is the player he was. jeter may have been a good player, but Brock is the best player I ever saw and he never got the massive hype that jeter got piled upon him and it's all because he wore a uniform with stripes.. nothing else. Lou Brock was the complete player who could do anything and everything. Tim Raines even should get elected to the hall before Jeter, who dearly deservese it, but he won't because some guy who wore stripes and was the product of a hype machine media in NY will push it to get him elected. Raines was a complete player, just like Lou Brock, Something Jeter never was.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 29, 2014 16:26:12 GMT -5
Why isn't Jeter being arguably the greatest hitting shortstop in history good enough? I agree with your overall point, but not even close.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 29, 2014 16:38:42 GMT -5
Banks and A-Rod were much, much better hitters than Jeter, but played more than half their career at other positions. That Jeter was able to get on base 4717 times while remaining a shortstop is remarkable. The fact that he wasn't playing shortstop all that well is a minor issue - he was mostly playing it well enough (at least until 2010 or so) that his offense easily carried his glove. It's the same conversation we spent most of the season having about Bogaerts. A player doesn't need to play elite defense to be a good shortstop, he just needs to provide value. Jeter had 12 seasons with a .370+ OBP. From 1997 to 2002 he had 33.9 bWAR and averaged 278 times on base per season. That's really really awesome and he was the biggest reason the Yankees of that era were so good. On the one hand, Jeter has obviously gotten too much credit for his teams accomplishments over the last 20 years (knowing how to win an all that jazz) but his critics don't give him enough credit for spending his peak as the best player of a championship-level team.
Honus Wagner is the "arguably" in my point. I think Wagner was probably better, but he also played in an era of segregation so it's not a slam dunk. I think Ripken was a better overall player too because I think his defense pushes him over Jeter.
But I know that you agree with my greater point here, that it's very easy to tout Jeter's accomplishments by using his actual accomplishments.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 29, 2014 17:11:32 GMT -5
Why isn't Jeter being arguably the greatest hitting shortstop in history good enough? I agree with your overall point, but not even close. Realistically, Jeter is an MLB average player compared to Wagner. And in terms of career WAR he is nearly equivalent to Alan Trammel, who has not been anointed a hall of famer by the writers (never mind the "unanimous first ballot hall of famer" BS being pushed by the NY media), but who would be a slam dunk super duper bestest SS ever if only he had been a True Yankee.
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 29, 2014 17:18:45 GMT -5
The over done Jeter retirement stuff was bad. The anti Jeter backlash is worse.
Here's one for the stat guys. Jeter played over 2700 games and never went more than 3 without getting on base.
As to his defense, just so I can sort out the haters. Who thinks Xander now is better than Jeter on D before say 35 ?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 17:20:10 GMT -5
Banks and A-Rod were much, much better hitters than Jeter, but played more than half their career at other positions. That Jeter was able to get on base 4717 times while remaining a shortstop is remarkable. The fact that he wasn't playing shortstop all that well is a minor issue - he was mostly playing it well enough (at least until 2010 or so) that his offense easily carried his glove. It's the same conversation we spent most of the season having about Bogaerts. A player doesn't need to play elite defense to be a good shortstop, he just needs to provide value. Jeter had 12 seasons with a .370+ OBP. From 1997 to 2002 he had 33.9 bWAR and averaged 278 times on base per season. That's really really awesome and he was the biggest reason the Yankees of that era were so good. On the one hand, Jeter has obviously gotten too much credit for his teams accomplishments over the last 20 years (knowing how to win an all that jazz) but his critics don't give him enough credit for spending his peak as the best player of a championship-level team. Honus Wagner is the "arguably" in my point. I think Wagner was probably better, but he also played in an era of segregation so it's not a slam dunk. I think Ripken was a better overall player too because I think his defense pushes him over Jeter. But I know that you agree with my greater point here, that it's very easy to tout Jeter's accomplishments by using his actual accomplishments. And if the Yankees had a brain and Jeter was the leader people pretended he was, he would have played more than half his career at other positions as well.
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Post by soxfan1615 on Sept 29, 2014 17:26:11 GMT -5
The over done Jeter retirement stuff was bad. The anti Jeter backlash is worse. Here's one for the stat guys. Jeter played over 2700 games and never went more than 3 without getting on base. As to his defense, just so I can sort out the haters. Who thinks Xander now is better than Jeter on D before say 35 ? Cool, his OBP is good, we know that. He was a very good hitter I think Xander is better now, defensive metrics like UZR probably overrate Jeter Derek Jeter may be the worst defensive Shortstop of all time
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 17:29:57 GMT -5
The over done Jeter retirement stuff was bad. The anti Jeter backlash is worse. Here's one for the stat guys. Jeter played over 2700 games and never went more than 3 without getting on base. As to his defense, just so I can sort out the haters. Who thinks Xander now is better than Jeter on D before say 35 ? Well, Bogaerts' UZR/150 is better than Jeter's then or for just about every season of his career.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 29, 2014 17:40:46 GMT -5
And if the Yankees had a brain and Jeter was the leader people pretended he was, he would have played more than half his career at other positions as well. No shortstop in history has cost his team more runs than Derek Jeter. But it didn't matter because he was an extremely good hitter and had incredible durability. This is a tad reductionist, but a player who compiles 50 oWAR and 20 dWAR isn't more valuable than someone who gets to the same overall value with 95 oWAR and -25 dWAR. If Jeter had been an average defender he'd have been a Top 20 All-time position player. But the fact that he was "only" top 75 or so isn't exactly shameful. But that's the frustration with the coverage of him - people call him a great leader and a great fielder and a great humanitarian. He didn't seem like the first, he certainly wasn't the second and I have no insight into the third. Alan Trammell was nearly as good as Derek Jeter and isn't even the best player in his double play combo to get snubbed from the Hall of Fame.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 29, 2014 17:44:04 GMT -5
The over done Jeter retirement stuff was bad. The anti Jeter backlash is worse. Here's one for the stat guys. Jeter played over 2700 games and never went more than 3 without getting on base. As to his defense, just so I can sort out the haters. Who thinks Xander now is better than Jeter on D before say 35 ? Well I am not aware of a great deal of backlash. If there is some, I suspect that its primary basis is the absolute, over the top anointing of Jeter for sainthood....not that he was not a good role model, teammate, good player etc. It's great that he played on one team his whole career. But if he had been signed by Houston or Pittsburgh, would that have been true? To compare Xander's defense at 21 with Jeter before 35 when he was in his prime.....Wow you sure set that one up glaringly and embarrassingly in your favor. Who said Xander was destined for the HOF? Compare Jeter's defense at 21 with other HOF type shortstops of recent vintage. Then you might make sense.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2014 17:48:07 GMT -5
And if the Yankees had a brain and Jeter was the leader people pretended he was, he would have played more than half his career at other positions as well. No shortstop in history has cost his team more runs than Derek Jeter. But it didn't matter because he was an extremely good hitter and had incredible durability. This is a tad reductionist, but a player who compiles 50 oWAR and 20 dWAR isn't more valuable than someone who gets to the same overall value with 95 oWAR and -25 dWAR. If Jeter had been an average defender he'd have been a Top 20 All-time position player. But the fact that he was "only" top 75 or so isn't exactly shameful. But that's the frustration with the coverage of him - people call him a great leader and a great fielder and a great humanitarian. He didn't seem like the first, he certainly wasn't the second and I have no insight into the third. Alan Trammell was nearly as good as Derek Jeter and isn't even the best player in his double play combo to get snubbed from the Hall of Fame. But you're comparing players based on their teams' decisions on where to play them. They should have kept ARod at SS and moved Jeter to 3B then ARod would have been the best all-time SS and Jeter would be the borderline HOF player that he should be.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 29, 2014 17:57:50 GMT -5
Derek Jeter was on base 4,717 times. Calling him a borderline Hall of Famer is as silly as calling him a good defender. A-Rod was a better defensive third baseman than he was a shortstop, and he was a better third baseman than Jeter (who couldn't move to his left) would have been. The one real option would have been playing A-Rod at short and moving Jeter to center, but that would have been risky too.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 29, 2014 21:50:58 GMT -5
Between the colder weather and the higher level of competition, pretty much noone hits better in the postseason than in the regular season. I vaguely remember an article a few years back showing that Jeter was basically one of two or three guys with some number of plate appearances who hit better in the postseason than in the regular season. It's an accomplishment that I think you should be giving more credit, and this is coming from someone who is generally sick of the Jeter hype. He is no Papi with a career 148 wRC+ vs. career 138 regular season.Wait, I thought playoff performance didn't matter?
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 30, 2014 7:57:02 GMT -5
It's a well-done piece, but it's really not saying much ... we already know the difficulty of comparing players across eras, and many of his points actually cut in the opposite direction from what his conclusion is (like the huge bats Wagner had to swing and the ridiculous balls he had to hit with them). Even the nutrition one isn't that great an argument ... if Honus Wagner was alive now, he'd be even bigger and more athletic because he'd have the benefit of the same nutritional advances as everyone else. Populations are relative, just like baseball performance. In the end, we can only compare guys with their contemporaries, not imagine some time-machine universe where we could drop Jeter into the 1915 Yankees. That said, I've always thought Gould's point about decreasing variation as systems regularize to be a really interesting one and one that fits that data of baseball performance very well. I think the biggest problem with comparing Jeter to past shortstops is that it's really hard to compare defense across eras. If Jeter had played 40 years ago, he probably would've had the reputation as a really good defender (look at those Gold Gloves!) and be considered a great all-around shortstop. The argument might be, "sure, there were other shortstops that were better offensively, but no one combined the offensive performance and Gold Glove defense like Derek Jeter."
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Post by Guidas on Sept 30, 2014 9:06:21 GMT -5
If Jeter was on any other team besides the Yankees he would be Alan Trammell - i.e. a very good shortstop but not a lock for the HOF. He also probably would've been on 3-4 different teams. Nothing in the world can convince me otherwise of this.
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