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Post by brockholtsuperstar on Oct 1, 2014 12:14:58 GMT -5
I know there is already a roster thread here but I wanted to have a more specific discussion about who will back-up Vasquez next year or (god forbid) take over for Vasquez in the case of an injury. So I put together a list of potential targets for the Red Sox this offseason to fill the hole, as well as in house options that could step up. Some of these are big time long shots, but I tried to keep it at least somewhat within the realm of realism and mainly focused on lefties/switch hitters because god knows we need some.
Josh Thole 27 Bats: Left - Thole is one of the least likely options on this list, but brings a solid lefty bat, good on-base skills and solid defense to the table. Downside is he's cheap and useful which means it would likely take a good amount to get him from the Blue Jays.
Alex Avila 27 Bats: Left - Avila is very similar to Thole in all respects and is probably the least likely option on this list but is worth consideration I think. I also believe Avila is set to be a free agent after 2015 so that may lower his price. Maybe the Tigers sell him for prospects and then go after Russel Martin? Unlikely but still worth consideration.
Geovany Soto 31 Bats: Right - Soto isn't exactly a master behind the dish, but has a cannon for an arm, is Puerto Rican like Vasquez (which might make him a good mentor for Christian) and can handle himself with the bat. Soto is also a free agent this offseason meaning we would sacrifice no prospects to get him. The main draw-back here is the fact that he bats righty and we do not need another right handed bat.
John Jaso 30 Bats: LEft - Jaso doesn't have the best defense but is great offensively and is a lefty which is obviously important to us. However the A's seem to like platooning him, Norris, and Stephan Vogt so I do not see them giving him up cheaply, especially with their depleted farm system. Aditionally we could look at Vogt himself but he might cost even more than Jaso due to his age and low cost.
Carlos Corporan 30 Bats:Switch - Corproan is another veteran Puerto Rican that could serve as a good mentor to Vasquez, and has solid defense to back up his mediocre bat. While not a free agent might be bought cheaply due to his nearly replacement level production and the presence of Max Stassi behind him.
Jose Lobaton 29 Bats: Switch - Lobaton looks good in defensive metrics and has done a decent job with the bat so far, but the Nats seem to like him and there is no obvious replacement in Washington. Might be too steep of a price for a single year back-up catcher.
Wil Nieves 36 Bats: Right - Nieves is both good defensively and average offensively, while his status as a veteran free agent may make him an ideal fit to back-up Vasquez. However his right handed bat and suspect OBP make him less valuable to us.
Brayan Pena 32 Bats: Switch - Pena is an interesting option to me for several reasons. He is a veteran who while not known for his defense could provide a big boost with the bat from behind the dish. He is a free agent following this year so his value will go down which could help us obtain him cheaply, possibly as part of a Mat Latos trade? Also this would allow us to corner the market on players named Brayan which I for one am all for.
David Ross - Not even going to fill n the age and batting side, Ross is clearly a solid and easily obtainable option. His defense and veteran leadership are both highly valued to the Red Sox, and it seems he's done a good job mentoring Vasquez so far. However as I've read on the forums some fear his bat may collapse or his health will fail given his advanced age. I for one wouldn't be upset by a Ross return, but I think we could do much better.
There are also countless replacement level catchers around the league such as the George Kottaras's and John Bakers of the world that we could take on, but I decided not to look as in depth to these proposals. So what do you guys think? Who do you think should be backing up Vasquez come Opening Day 2015?
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Post by jmei on Oct 1, 2014 13:25:49 GMT -5
There's some discussion of other candidates in the Jaso thread in the trade proposal subforum. Jason Castro is one name that you haven't mentioned who might be a fit.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 1, 2014 13:40:01 GMT -5
I guess there's always the horrible option of calling up Ruben Amaro about Ruiz. When I say horrible, I mean Amaro, not Ruiz.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Oct 1, 2014 14:15:00 GMT -5
In general, I think you can discount anyone whom it would take considerable resources of any kind to land, whether money or prospects. This is a back-up catcher holding a major league spot in front of the best catching prospect in the game in AAA. This is not anything the Sox should give up value to get. They don't want someone so bad that they'd have to rush Swihart to cover for him, but seriously, how bad does a guy have to be to be that bad? Because even if Vazquez is JBJ-level useless as a hitter next year, he's still probably good enough to hold down the starting job because of his defense.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 1, 2014 14:36:32 GMT -5
In general, I think you can discount anyone whom it would take considerable resources of any kind to land, whether money or prospects. This is a back-up catcher holding a major league spot in front of the best catching prospect in the game in AAA. This is not anything the Sox should give up value to get. They don't want someone so bad that they'd have to rush Swihart to cover for him, but seriously, how bad does a guy have to be to be that bad? Because even if Vazquez is JBJ-level useless as a hitter next year, he's still probably good enough to hold down the starting job because of his defense. like AJP bad
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Post by michael on Oct 1, 2014 14:46:45 GMT -5
Might be wise to reconsider Ross IF the Sox resign Lester.
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Post by brockholtsuperstar on Oct 1, 2014 14:57:26 GMT -5
Yeah that's why I tried to keep it to back-ups/free agents (minus Avila, that was stretching). And I was going to include Castro but when I thought of the resources it would take to get him I figured it wasn't worth it, I for one would be all in on Ross or Nieves, and Pena and Corporan could be gotten cheaply enough that I would like the pickups.
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 1, 2014 15:25:06 GMT -5
What about trying to pry away Rene Rivera from San Diego? They have a surplus in catching (Grandal) and Rivera put up a 3 WAR season. He's also is one of the best pitch framers in the league.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 1, 2014 17:15:59 GMT -5
What about trying to pry away Rene Rivera from San Diego? They have a surplus in catching (Grandal) and Rivera put up a 3 WAR season. He's also is one of the best pitch framers in the league. I don't think there's a point in "prying" anyone away from any team. You're looking for a (potentially less than) one-year stopgap, unless one of Swihart or Vazquez gets traded. Sign the cheapest acceptable free agent, use Butler as the backup option to that guy, and away you go, right?
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 1, 2014 19:02:14 GMT -5
Most pertinent part right there.. I wouldn't even be willing to spend the 3.1m that Ross made last season. If the Sox can't find some guy who can work for 1-1.5m and go 30-40g tops? Forget the idea and go with Butler, I always thought the idea of HAVING to keep a veteran catcher around was overated anyway, especially after Vazquez had Rossie for half a season last year and they can probably find someone to stay with the team as a mentor, albeit not playing a few games anyway.. It's absurd they need a veteran catcher to babysit some of the pitchers with Lackey and Lester now gone, unless some of the young kids have learned this worthless habit that can be told by Farrell they can get over it and it ain't gonna' happen.
Also think that the kid backup catcher backup (until Swihart is ready) should not be handed to Butler automatically. Lavarnway should probably be removed from the 40 man roster before the rule 5 draft, granted, though if he clears waivers and they can retain him he should be given every chance to earn that spot, along with Butler over the spring as the backup catcher.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 1, 2014 19:36:41 GMT -5
You guys STILL would go with Butler as the injury depth. Has my function here been for naught!
You all want to go short term apparently, and I agree that is probably what they are going to do, but I'd at least talk to Russell Martin. He had an inordinate year and probably will not repeat it but we are a classic short term, overpay team and I have zero problem securing the catcher slot with Martin for 2-3 years. If Swihart emerges we probably will need some injury depth anyway for a year and if he's a stud we can probably play him some in the OF for a while and use him for injury backup. Or trade someone.
Considering the above options I don'tthink that is such a bad approach.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 1, 2014 20:14:52 GMT -5
You guys STILL would go with Butler as the injury depth. Has my function here been for naught! You all want to go short term apparently, and I agree that is probably what they are going to do, but I'd at least talk to Russell Martin. He had an inordinate year and probably will not repeat it but we are a classic short term, overpay team and I have zero problem securing the catcher slot with Martin for 2-3 years. If Swihart emerges we probably will need some injury depth anyway for a year and if he's a stud we can probably play him some in the OF for a while and use him for injury backup. Or trade someone. Considering the above options I don'tthink that is such a bad approach. Think Martin is set up for a decent sized payday this off season, he's not going to wind up with any 2-3y deal this time and the 2y deal last time was on his own initiative, not the Pirates as remember. Martin put up numbers last year as good, or better than he has sinc early LAD years. I'd think he gets 4y, maybe even team option at 5. Salty even got 3 and he can't catch, nor throw. Ruiz got 3 last y/w a team option on another and he's 3 years older. I really can't see martin signing for much less than got at McCann's 15mAAV over 4 seasons myself.
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Post by ifixbadcredit on Oct 1, 2014 20:21:12 GMT -5
I would look into what the Braves are asking for Evan Gattis. He could Catch 40-50 games, dh,1b and play some left field. There would have to be some other moves involved, but no reason for both Catcher's to be a blackhole in the lineup.
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Post by moonstone2 on Oct 1, 2014 22:03:01 GMT -5
There's some discussion of other candidates in the Jaso thread in the trade proposal subforum. Jason Castro is one name that you haven't mentioned who might be a fit. I will make the case for Castro. What the Red Sox really need is a backup catcher that could probably start for some teams. There are some guys that aren't able to handle a long season as an everyday player but still have talent. Such players are probably better off as bench players where they won't wear down. Castro might be one of those guys. He has some pop and is an experienced receiver, but it's hard to play every day if you strike out as much as he does. Play him in 70 games though he might be a lot better. Castro is the kind of player where the higher revenue teams have an underrated advantage. If you are the Astros he's going to get 5 or 6 million as a year 5 eligible. That's nothing for the Red Sox, but for most teams it's real money. If you are the Astros can you afford to give someone like that , that type of money. They probably would like to move him on for a prospect. The Red Sox of course have a chorus line of pitchers and infielders who aren't impact players but coulf help.
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Post by larrycook on Oct 1, 2014 22:26:35 GMT -5
Why could not butler back up Vazquez?
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 1, 2014 22:48:40 GMT -5
Why could not butler back up Vazquez? He could, but you run a risk of getting 70-80 wRC+ production from the position. I do think Vazquez will be better than that, and while he's perfectly viable regardless due to the outstanding defense, we could really benefit from having a decent left handed option. Butler, also a RHH, is worse both offensively and defensively, so it's worth exploring acquiring someone more useful, so long as they don't cost too much, considering it'll only be a short-term "need."
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Post by brockholtsuperstar on Oct 1, 2014 22:54:15 GMT -5
Also I made this thread with competing in mind. While I do believe Vasquez will be a suitable starter for a competitor, I do not want a below replacement level player filling in for him on his offdays, plus as someone mentioned already we could use a left-handed bat off the bench. Thus a Brayan Pena, who will not take much tog et, but will still be valuable to us.
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Post by garnotte12 on Oct 1, 2014 23:08:08 GMT -5
Russell Martin all the way. He does it all. Everywhere he goes, his team wins and make the playoffs. LAD, NYY and his 2 years with the Bucs...after 20 years + under 500. He is fantastic with pitchers...he is one of the best strike getters in framing, blocks perfect, threw out the most runners in the league and hits 290 with pop. sign him for 4 or 5y @ $13M/y and trade Swihart along a Ranaudo and Workman for top pitcher. Keep Vazquez as a backup because he won't hit in majors but will have a career because of his defense.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 2, 2014 0:39:57 GMT -5
If we really want to compete for the playoff run in 2015, it would seem to me that we should be at least making an attempt to sign Martin. No way he has another year like 2014 but considering the options at catcher this winter, Martin helps this team more than any of the FA 3rd base options we have available.
If LA doesn't sign Martin, we know the Yanks will not. We should be able to sign him. Then use Swihart for a deal like Hamel if we want. Or trade any of them next year.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Oct 2, 2014 8:40:32 GMT -5
Why would Martin want to come to Boston as a backup (or at best a platoon) though? If he gets an offer from some team for 2 years to start 70% or more of games, why come to a last place team on a 1 yr deal? Plus BOS has no reason to give him more than a 1 year offer with Swihart on the way.
I agree he would be one of the better options available, but he's going to get a better deal from a team that most likely had a better record in 2014.
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2014 9:58:43 GMT -5
I see the Pirates, Dodgers, Rangers, Cubs, White Sox (both Chicago clubs are close enough to contention and desperately need a catcher), and maybe the Rockies and Tigers as interested in starting-caliber catcher options this year. It's always a good idea to check-in on every free agent who might be a fit, but I think Martin gets at least $50m guaranteed on a three/four-year deal, and that's expensive enough that adding him doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It just forces you to make a lot of peripheral moves-- forcing Vazquez into a backup role, likely having to trade Swihart, making it difficult to add both a third baseman and a second starter and stay under the luxury tax-- all of which seem like bad bets. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to selling high on Swihart, but that requires juggling a lot of balls in the air simultaneously, and if any one of them falls through, the whole venture loses its appeal.
One other name that hasn't been mentioned as a short-term option: Matt Wieters. He's entering his last year of arbitration (as a Boras client, he won't be signing an extension), and the Orioles are likely to at least shop him this winter. Of course, if you acquire him, that relegates Vazquez to a true backup role, which may be an inefficient allocation of resources if you think he's a starting-caliber guy (as I do). But he's someone to think about.
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Post by charliezink16 on Oct 2, 2014 10:04:12 GMT -5
If we really want to compete for the playoff run in 2015, it would seem to me that we should be at least making an attempt to sign Martin. No way he has another year like 2014 but considering the options at catcher this winter, Martin helps this team more than any of the FA 3rd base options we have available. If LA doesn't sign Martin, we know the Yanks will not. We should be able to sign him. Then use Swihart for a deal like Hamel if we want. Or trade any of them next year. I would put the chances of us signing Russell Martin at around -3%. We just signed AJ friggin Pierzynski last offseason in order to reserve the bridge to our young catching prospects, why would we turn around and burn that bridge a season later? We have a starting caliber catcher in Christian Vazquez, and another one in Swihart right behind him. Additionally, we have 1-2 SP's, 1-2 RP's, and a 3B to sign with around $50 mil. Whichever SP we go after will command >$20 mil, since we're in desperate need of an ace, so we're dealing with much less money than you think. Is it really worth it to sign Martin, thus blocking both Vazquez and Swihart, at ~30x the cost ($500K vs. $15mil)? Hell no. If CVaz s**** the bed at the plate in a similar fashion to JBJ, he's still providing top 5 defense at a (much more) premium position than CF. Throwing runners out at a >50% clip, calling the game at a top level as a "student of the game", and framing pitches at an elite level are skills that won't disappear, even if he hits at a horrendous clip. I may be exaggerating here, but if Vazquez can hit around .240/.310/.340, I think he's a top 5 catcher in baseball in terms of overall value. If we're looking to deal for an elite bat/arm, Swihart is probably the most valuable (non Mookie/Xander) piece we have, and Vazquez makes him expendable. I'd be all for shipping Swihart off and letting Vazquez adjust to the major league level in hopes that his bat steadily improves, because even if it doesn't he's an unbelievably valuable piece to this pitching staff and this team as a whole.
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danr
Veteran
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Post by danr on Oct 2, 2014 11:02:04 GMT -5
I lean towards sticking with Ross and Butler. The only catchers worth acquiring as full-timers who also would improve the hitting are Wieters and Martin and the cost associated with acquiring either would diminish the ability to solve some other problems. It only makes sense to use any significant resources for catcher if the hitting in that position is significantly improved.
Assuming that Bogaerts hits reasonably well next year, and based on how he performed late in the season, I think that is likely, then the hitting holes in the lineup are 3B and catcher. (Assuming Castillo also hits). Vazquez is such a weapon defensively that it is worth carrying him at the 9th spot in the lineup if he doesn't hit well. But having two weak spots is not good. Other players are going to have their slumps to go with their hot streaks, and during those slumps there will be too many holes in the lineup.
So, in my opinion, the focus should be on getting someone at 3B who improves the team's hitting, and sticking with Vazquez. Ross and/or Butler are adequate backups. And Swihart is not far from the majors. If he emerges as the premium hitter and defender that many think he will be, then the Sox have a marvelous problem.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 2, 2014 11:30:44 GMT -5
I fully understand people's viewpoint here regarding Vasquez, and the Redsox's opinion that they want to leave a catching slot open for Swihart's probable emergence. I have Swihart as our top prospect and had him #2 early last summer. I do value Vasquez as a probable starting catcher also. So, i definitely see your perspectives as reasonable and absolutely likely to be the Redsox's position as well.
All that said, what is the point of being a big market team unless we use the money to become the best possible team we can be long term? Considering the FA options at least at the catching position, won't Martin probably improve this team a lot if he is signed? I contend that Vasquez is not any better positioned right now to take over as the starting catcher than JBJ was of taking over as the starting CF last Spring. JBJ put up great defense also and had much better minor league hitting numbers. Was a higher draft pick ...etc. Yet we are absolutely slotting Vasquez in as our starting catcher for the next 6 years, unless Swihart beats him out. I'm saying maybe we should at least revisit that position in light of how our prospects performed this year.
Can we really count on Vasquez, who was hitting around .210 until the last week or so when teams were mailing it in with their pitching staffs? Isn't he probably going to be one the worst hitter in the starting lineup? We all feel very confident in his ability to thow out runners but can we know for sure his ability to get strike calls from his catching technique and his ability to call a game are truly excellent or are they SSS noise and PR? I don't know for sure yet and I don't think anyone here should feel confident that is true. I see some passed ball numbers which are not great and the pitching staff actually degraded in the 2nd half pretty bad. Vasquez looks real good but Martin's over .400 OBP sure looks good also.
What it comes down to me is who is the better value? Martin at 3 years and $15 mil a year or Headley at 4 years and $15 mil per year. Who will help THIS team win more games? Who is harder to replace? I think it's pretty tough to get a good catcher right now and less difficult to get a good 3rd baseman. And Martin is a better player to me than Headley, for less money. People are projecting Martin at 4 years and $50 mil. Why wouldn't he take 3 years at $45 mil?
I know it's contrarian thinking and I'm not saying it to be difficult or intransigent. I get your points. I doubt seriously if the Redsox do it but I think we should at least consider signing Martin at $45 mil / 3 years before we give that money to Headley.
And I completely don't even get Butler as injury depth at this point.
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2014 11:53:26 GMT -5
We all feel very confident in his ability to thow out runners but can we know for sure his ability to get strike calls from his catching technique and his ability to call a game are truly excellent or are they SSS noise and PR? I don't know for sure yet and I don't think anyone here should feel confident that is true. I see some passed ball numbers which are not great and the pitching staff actually degraded in the 2nd half pretty bad. Yes, we can know for sure. Literally every single scout and analyst has praised Vazquez's framing ability since he's been in the high minors. Maybe you can question the magnitude of his framing skill in terms of how many wins that skill is worth, but there's pretty much no argument to be made that Vazquez isn't really, really good at it. Also: of course the pitching staff was worse in the second half. They traded their two best starters and gave a bunch of starts to guys like Ranaudo who are fringy major league pitchers at this point in their development path. If you're making this a dichotomous choice between upgrading catcher and upgrading third base (which it's not exactly, but we can look at it as such for the time being to avoid introducing too many other variables), it's just a question of how much better the free agent options are than the incumbents versus how much they're going to cost. And I think Vazquez is just a much, much better incumbant option that the mishmash at 3B. His elite defense and relatively low strikeout rate gives him a much higher floor than Cecchini/Holt et. al, and his ceiling is pretty high as well-- he just as to hit a little to be one of the better overall catchers in the game. So even if Martin is better than Headley (which I'd probably agree with, and so would just about everyone else), I think it still makes more sense to target Headley.
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