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Post by jclmontana on Oct 2, 2014 12:26:58 GMT -5
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 2, 2014 12:37:30 GMT -5
If it isn't Martin or a trade solution, it might as well be Ross because there ain't much available on the FA market beyond Martin.
Jmei, if Martin is better than Headley at the same cost or less, at a more important position, that would seem to indicate to me that he should be the target.
If it means trading someone I bet Phiily would love Vasquez as part of their Hamels deal.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 2, 2014 12:42:30 GMT -5
It seems that, if they want to bring Ross back, it is only to "mentor" Vasquez. From what I have seen, Christian has established himself as the starting catcher. Ross isn't needed to show Christian footwork behind the plate, how to frame pitches, how to throw runners out because he already excels at that. Ross is certainly not going to help him with hitting. So why tie up a roster space for a "mentor" who may not be needed.
If Vasquez has a question or a problem, can't he bounce it off Jason Varitek, one of the best catchers in Red Sox history, who is in the organization as a catching instructor? If they want Ross back, I'd rather it be as a bullpen coach.
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Post by garnotte12 on Oct 2, 2014 12:42:53 GMT -5
Why would Martin want to come to Boston as a backup (or at best a platoon) though? If he gets an offer from some team for 2 years to start 70% or more of games, why come to a last place team on a 1 yr deal? Plus BOS has no reason to give him more than a 1 year offer with Swihart on the way. I agree he would be one of the better options available, but he's going to get a better deal from a team that most likely had a better record in 2014. nobody mentionned Martin as a backup!!!! Why are you saying that? And MArtin will never sign for 1y!!!! He's the best catcher in baseball!!! Also remember that he signed with Pitts when they were last and made the playoffs the 2 years he was there...so why not the Sox? If we get Martin for long term, then trade Swihart who has "off the roof" value.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Oct 2, 2014 12:50:42 GMT -5
It's pretty simple, really ... the cost per added win for the Sox at catcher is A LOT higher than at third base because the floor at catcher (Vazquez for basically nothing) is already pretty good. So each additional win Martin would bring comes at a really high cost relative to added wins at third base. Now, if money were no object, I guess you could go that way if you really thought it was an upgrade, but it's a really inefficient use of free agent dollars for the Red Sox. And they don't have unlimited funds.
And, yeah, I'd probably argue the skills that Vazquez brings to the table are more predictable and stable than, say, Bogaerts, who is potentially much, much better.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 2, 2014 12:53:47 GMT -5
Why would Martin want to come to Boston as a backup (or at best a platoon) though? If he gets an offer from some team for 2 years to start 70% or more of games, why come to a last place team on a 1 yr deal? Plus BOS has no reason to give him more than a 1 year offer with Swihart on the way. I agree he would be one of the better options available, but he's going to get a better deal from a team that most likely had a better record in 2014. nobody mentionned Martin as a backup!!!! Why are you saying that? And MArtin will never sign for 1y!!!! He's the best catcher in baseball!!! Also remember that he signed with Pitts when they were last and made the playoffs the 2 years he was there...so why not the Sox? If we get Martin for long term, then trade Swihart who has "off the roof" value. I wouldn't trade Buster Posey for Martin so I don't think I can call him the best catcher in the game. Martin is good, but I'd prefer Swihart (and/or Vazquez's) ascending careers than paying a lot of money for Martin's eventual descending career. Martin played well this year. Wouldn't be surprised if he was back down to being a .230 hitter again next year. I'll take my chances with the kids. The most I would do is get a decent temporary backup until Swihart is ready and then by next year the Sox could have themselves a trade scenario that works well for them as one of those kids will wind up being the starting catcher.
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2014 13:12:12 GMT -5
Jmei, if Martin is better than Headley at the same cost or less, at a more important position, that would seem to indicate to me that he should be the target. It's not about how good they are in a vacuum, it's about how much better they are than the internal options. And the Red Sox have much better internal options at catcher than at third base. There's also the fact that (a) Martin will likely cost as much or more than Headley, and (b) he's one year older at a more demanding defensive position (and so age-related decline will set in sooner).
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Post by jmei on Oct 2, 2014 13:25:39 GMT -5
It seems that, if they want to bring Ross back, it is only to "mentor" Vasquez. From what I have seen, Christian has established himself as the starting catcher. Ross isn't needed to show Christian footwork behind the plate, how to frame pitches, how to throw runners out because he already excels at that. Ross is certainly not going to help him with hitting. So why tie up a roster space for a "mentor" who may not be needed. If Vasquez has a question or a problem, can't he bounce it off Jason Varitek, one of the best catchers in Red Sox history, who is in the organization as a catching instructor? If they want Ross back, I'd rather it be as a bullpen coach. I disagree that Ross would be brought back just as a "mentor." He's genuinely one of the better backup catchers on the market. He strikes out a ton, but flashes enough patience and power to not be terrible at the plate. On the defensive end, he's still one of the better pitch-framers in the league, and is also decent enough with blocking pitches and throwing out baserunners (his SB/CS numbers were way down this year, but I think that's largely because he worked almost exclusively with Jon Lester, who, as we've just seen, is one of the worst run-game-preventers in the league). Of the pending FA catchers, there aren't a lot of guys I'd take over him, especially relative to expected cost. That said, age-related decline is a worry with Ross. He'll be 38 next year, and any player that age runs a risk of just physically collapsing (think Mike Cameron). He won't be able to play more than a typical reserve role, so that makes the third catcher (the guy who you'd call up if Vazquez was injured) more important. Dan Butler and Ryan Lavarnway don't inspire a lot of confidence, and I don't want to rush Swihart if Vazquez gets hurt early in the year. But maybe that's just being a little too nit-picky-- you can't have elite depth at every position in the infield, and Butler is at least a replacement-level type.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 2, 2014 13:32:18 GMT -5
Age and physical history, along with declining skills are red flags when considering back-up options for Vasquez. There are better options available through trade than Butler who shows me little when standing at the plate as oppose to squatting behind it.
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Post by taftreign on Oct 2, 2014 15:04:08 GMT -5
Not sure it's been discussed but isn't it possible Martin gets a QO. If he is in demand as a top defensive catcher and has at least an average bat for a catcher doesn't it seem possible if not probable. Particularly when considering the catcher needy teams of which more than one has a protected pick. 1 year at 15 mil is a bit high on AAV for Pittsburgh but I could see management taking the risk since it is only a one year commitment and they may be able to afterward work out a more affordable AAV over a greater length of years. I'm not in favor of signing him due to the length of contract required and the quality of other options already on the 40 man And a QO would only cement my thinking.
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Post by garnotte12 on Oct 2, 2014 15:13:24 GMT -5
nobody mentionned Martin as a backup!!!! Why are you saying that? And MArtin will never sign for 1y!!!! He's the best catcher in baseball!!! Also remember that he signed with Pitts when they were last and made the playoffs the 2 years he was there...so why not the Sox? If we get Martin for long term, then trade Swihart who has "off the roof" value. I wouldn't trade Buster Posey for Martin so I don't think I can call him the best catcher in the game. Martin is good, but I'd prefer Swihart (and/or Vazquez's) ascending careers than paying a lot of money for Martin's eventual descending career. Martin played well this year. Wouldn't be surprised if he was back down to being a .230 hitter again next year. I'll take my chances with the kids. The most I would do is get a decent temporary backup until Swihart is ready and then by next year the Sox could have themselves a trade scenario that works well for them as one of those kids will wind up being the starting catcher. Posey's numbers: 547 ab, avg 311, OBP 365, SLG 490 RBI 89, HR 22, CS 29.7%. Martin's numbers (calculated to 547 ab): 379 ab (547), avg 290, OBP 402, SLG 430, RBI 67 (96), HR 11 (16), CS 38.5%. These are very nice numbers by Martin...eventhough i like Posey a lot. Also Martin wins and has made post season where ever he went LAD, NYY, Pitts...Boston? This guy is a warrior and a proven winner. He has Vazquez' defense with proven offense...what Vazquez will never have. Boston is a big market...if they want to win again soon!!! The Sox has added too many young players at the same time (JBJ, Xander, Betts, Vazquez, Castillo, Holt) Russell Martin all the way.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 2, 2014 15:34:27 GMT -5
Martin can't maintain his current pace. Posey does it regularly. Huge difference.
I concede that the chances of going with Martin are like 5%. Just wanted to flesh it out.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 2, 2014 17:51:12 GMT -5
I fully understand people's viewpoint here regarding Vasquez, and the Redsox's opinion that they want to leave a catching slot open for Swihart's probable emergence. I have Swihart as our top prospect and had him #2 early last summer. I do value Vasquez as a probable starting catcher also. So, i definitely see your perspectives as reasonable and absolutely likely to be the Redsox's position as well. All that said, what is the point of being a big market team unless we use the money to become the best possible team we can be long term? Considering the FA options at least at the catching position, won't Martin probably improve this team a lot if he is signed? I contend that Vasquez is not any better positioned right now to take over as the starting catcher than JBJ was of taking over as the starting CF last Spring. JBJ put up great defense also and had much better minor league hitting numbers. Was a higher draft pick ...etc. Yet we are absolutely slotting Vasquez in as our starting catcher for the next 6 years, unless Swihart beats him out. I'm saying maybe we should at least revisit that position in light of how our prospects performed this year. Can we really count on Vasquez, who was hitting around .210 until the last week or so when teams were mailing it in with their pitching staffs? Isn't he probably going to be one the worst hitter in the starting lineup? We all feel very confident in his ability to thow out runners but can we know for sure his ability to get strike calls from his catching technique and his ability to call a game are truly excellent or are they SSS noise and PR? I don't know for sure yet and I don't think anyone here should feel confident that is true. I see some passed ball numbers which are not great and the pitching staff actually degraded in the 2nd half pretty bad. Vasquez looks real good but Martin's over .400 OBP sure looks good also. What it comes down to me is who is the better value? Martin at 3 years and $15 mil a year or Headley at 4 years and $15 mil per year. Who will help THIS team win more games? Who is harder to replace? I think it's pretty tough to get a good catcher right now and less difficult to get a good 3rd baseman. And Martin is a better player to me than Headley, for less money. People are projecting Martin at 4 years and $50 mil. Why wouldn't he take 3 years at $45 mil? I know it's contrarian thinking and I'm not saying it to be difficult or intransigent. I get your points. I doubt seriously if the Redsox do it but I think we should at least consider signing Martin at $45 mil / 3 years before we give that money to Headley. And I completely don't even get Butler as injury depth at this point. The point is that we have a limited amount of money to spend and pitching and third base are way ahead of catcher on the list of priorities. Russell Martin is worth way more to other teams than he would be to us since we already have a pretty decent starting catcher who has room to improve significantly at the plate and our #1 prospect in AAA probably a half season away from being ready.
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Post by moonstone2 on Oct 2, 2014 19:54:36 GMT -5
First off their money maybe less limited than you think. Givem that the Sox haven't been to the playoffs in 4 of 5 the team may spend more than it usually does.
They would pay the luxury tax at the lowest rate if they went . Further in the summer of 2016 there is a possible thing that I don't even want to imagine.
As for spending the money at catcher , Vazquez was really poor offensively. I wouldn't mind seeing an offensive minded catcher.as a compliment. I would like to see them have a backup who is currenrly a starter and will be paid like one, but really is probably not good enough to start. Castro fits that bill Gattis does too.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,434
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Post by nomar on Oct 2, 2014 20:02:02 GMT -5
A salary dump of Victorino may help a lot
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 2, 2014 20:35:38 GMT -5
A salary dump of Victorino may help a lot Sure. But dump on whom? Who's willing to take on a 13 million salary for a guy just coming off major back surgery? I like the Hawaiian and what he brings. But we may have to keep him on the roster next year unless he can prove himself completely healthy for a trade. If that's the case, the Sox may want to keep him to platoon with Nava.
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Post by brockholtsuperstar on Oct 2, 2014 21:45:00 GMT -5
I would be very upset by a Martin signing. Would prefer a short term free agent such as Ross or Soto.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 2, 2014 22:16:03 GMT -5
... Also Martin wins and has made post season where ever he went LAD, NYY, Pitts...Boston? This guy is a warrior and a proven winner ... Sounds like another Jonny Gomes. Maybe we should bring him back too?
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Oct 3, 2014 7:18:54 GMT -5
Why would Martin want to come to Boston as a backup (or at best a platoon) though? If he gets an offer from some team for 2 years to start 70% or more of games, why come to a last place team on a 1 yr deal? Plus BOS has no reason to give him more than a 1 year offer with Swihart on the way. I agree he would be one of the better options available, but he's going to get a better deal from a team that most likely had a better record in 2014. nobody mentionned Martin as a backup!!!! Why are you saying that? And MArtin will never sign for 1y!!!! He's the best catcher in baseball!!! Also remember that he signed with Pitts when they were last and made the playoffs the 2 years he was there...so why not the Sox? If we get Martin for long term, then trade Swihart who has "off the roof" value. I thought Martin was being used as a backup as no sane person would want a 31 yr old catcher on decline to take at bats away from one of the best defensive catchers in baseball, PLUS block the best overall catching prospect in the minors
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 3, 2014 10:55:41 GMT -5
Yeah, that aging catcher with plus defense would really kill us with his over .400 obp and .290 BA.
It's not crazy to want Martin. We want to add top talent right? If I can get better talent for less money than Headley I'm all for it. If not, I'm not for it, We don't know how this is going to shake down yet, If it ends up Vasquez and Ross I'm fine with it but that isn't neceassarily ging to make us front runners in the playoffs either.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 3, 2014 11:37:07 GMT -5
Yeah, that aging catcher with plus defense would really kill us with his over .400 obp and .290 BA. It's not crazy to want Martin. We want to add top talent right? If I can get better talent for less money than Headley I'm all for it. If not, I'm not for it, We don't know how this is going to shake down yet, If it ends up Vasquez and Ross I'm fine with it but that isn't neceassarily ging to make us front runners in the playoffs either. Going with Vazquez and Ross might let us sign Miller, who would be drastically better than Drake Britton.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,434
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Post by nomar on Oct 3, 2014 12:09:07 GMT -5
I would be thoroughly shocked if Martin has a .400 OBP next year. His batted ball rates are identical to his career averages this year, yet his BABIP is 100 points higher. That's mostly luck. He's arguably the biggest regression candidate in baseball.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 3, 2014 12:36:58 GMT -5
As for spending the money at catcher , Vazquez was really poor offensively. I wouldn't mind seeing an offensive minded catcher.as a compliment. I would like to see them have a backup who is currenrly a starter and will be paid like one, but really is probably not good enough to start. Castro fits that bill Gattis does too. That's certainly one way to look at it, I guess. I'm more inclined to think "mentor" than anything if you're seeking a complementary piece for Vazquez. Old hand that knows the biz, etc. That said, you can always just deploy Varitek in that role without using a roster spot. He could easily split time between Boston and Pawtucket with Swihart. I guess the theory with your guy is the offensive guy plays on a day you need to sit one of your more offensive-minded players for a less offensively-gifted backup or something? I dunno. I don't think it's really that complementary. It's not like the offensive-minded catcher can hit while Vazquez fields. In the grand scheme of things, just get the guy that gives you the most value on a one-year deal. If it's an 80 fielder with a 40 bat versus at 40 fielder with a 60 bat, to throw random numbers out there, gimme the first guy.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 3, 2014 13:49:40 GMT -5
As for spending the money at catcher , Vazquez was really poor offensively. I wouldn't mind seeing an offensive minded catcher.as a compliment. I would like to see them have a backup who is currently a starter and will be paid like one, but really is probably not good enough to start. Castro fits that bill Gattis does too. As he's done in the minors, Vazquez started slowly and picked it up significantly as time went on. His line for September: .277/.351/.385, which is quite in line with what he did both at Portland and in Pawtucket. I don't think he's going to ever be the best hitting catcher in the game, but I do think he can bring enough to the table to be extremely valuable given his top-shelf defense. I agree they should look for a decent backup and the names you throw out there are good conversation starters. With a guy like Gattis who brings a lot of upside at the plate - someone who would also be a very useful right-handed DH alternative - the question becomes how much of a downside he represents behind it. The pitching staff is going to get spoiled fast when they've got Vazquez back there inducing discipline on the basepaths and giving them superior framing for their pitches. It's a bit of a drop-off to Gattis.
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 4, 2014 9:28:29 GMT -5
Regarding the catching, Vasquez needs no tutelage, I would go into camp believe it or not and give Larvarnway and Butler the chance. The backup is for only a small amount. Vasquez is taking over. When Swihart is ready if he doesn't get dealt. He comes up and we will see. The Sox have complete control over these guys. Maybe a team blows away the Sox with an offer.
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