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Red Sox re-sign Koji Uehara for two years, $18m
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Post by mgoetze on Oct 30, 2014 21:41:17 GMT -5
Koji didn't run out of gas, he forgot how to throw his splitter. Let's hope he remembers over the winter.
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Post by oregonbutnotnorm on Oct 30, 2014 22:02:26 GMT -5
I'm not trying to kick the hornet's nest, but I don't value WAR as an accurate advanced metric for either batters or pitchers. I also don't mean to understate how terrific Uehara has been. My train of thought is extrapolating innings (70ish) to dollars. This would be like paying a starter $27mil a year. There is exactly one pitcher worth that kind of money, and he plays for the Dodgers (I'm ignoring his post-season futility). I'm actually glad you made this comparison. Here's Koji Uehara versus Clayton Kershaw, rate stats only, last two years:
| Koji | Clayton | ERA | 1.75 | 1.80 | WHIP | 0.73 | 0.89 | K/9 | 11.75 | 9.76 | BB/9 | 1.10 | 1.72 | ERA- (lower is better)
| 43 | 51 | FIP- (lower is better)
| 57 | 59 | SIERA | 1.55 | 2.57 |
On a per-inning basis, Koji has absolutely been better than Kershaw since Uehara joined the Red Sox. Even going forward, Uehara's Steamer-projected 2.38 ERA/2.87 FIP is roughly on par with Kershaw's Steamer-projected 2.53 ERA/2.63 FIP. If you would give Kershaw $30m a year (which we should all be willing to do), then $9m a year for Koji is certainly reasonable.
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Post by oregonbutnotnorm on Oct 30, 2014 22:03:28 GMT -5
I relent. I'm absolutely hoping Mr. Uehara is worth every penny, and I have a hard time refuting jmei's post.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 30, 2014 22:43:08 GMT -5
Definitely some risk here. I'm of the mind that relievers as a whole tend to be inherently volatile. There are very few who maintain excellence over an extended period.
However, Uehara has done exactly that. He's been outstanding in all five seasons in which he has thrown out of the bullpen. His averages over those five seasons: 2.06 ERA, 0.75 WHIP, 5.7 H/9, 1.1 BB/9, 11.5 K/9. His lowest single-season K/9 was 10.8 in 2012. His highest single-season BB/9 is 1.2 in 2011. Seriously, go look at his numbers - it's kind of crazy that he wasn't closing before the Red Sox signed him.
(FWIW, I will acknowledge that he fell apart completely in the playoffs with Texas in 2011, but at this point I think he has earned his playoff bona fides back.)
And by the way, the bad stretch he had near the end of the year? It's easy to forget (I did too, in fact), but it was all of six games. Six games. And he recovered with three scoreless one-inning appearances to end the season. There was no change in his velocity at any point, and to my naked eye at least, it doesn't look like the movement changed in any significant way on his pitches. (Interestingly, his struggles came after a stretch of games in which he apparently messed around with a cutter, per Brooksbaseball - no idea if that means anything. Could just be statistical noise too.).
Age could certainly be an issue, and it's certainly a bit more money than you'd want to spend on a reliever as a general proposition. However, I'd also rather spend that money on a two-year commitment than a three- or four-year deal on Miller, who doesn't have nearly Uehara's track record, even if he is younger (he's basically been a very good relief pitcher for two seasons, one of which was injury-shortened, and an elite reliever for one). Robertson does have a track record and age on his side (although he hasn't been as good as Uehara), but he's going to get far more than this.
I can understand the idea of not wanting to pay that kind of money for any reliever, for sure, but to those who don't like this deal, I'd ask: what would your closer solution have been? Mujica?
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nsn
New Member
Posts: 2
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Post by nsn on Oct 31, 2014 1:33:24 GMT -5
I'm glad about it. I think the worst scenario was not re-sign him in spite of we did'nt trade him in July.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Oct 31, 2014 5:47:24 GMT -5
In July I thought he was worth keeping to give a qualifying offer and retaining for a year. After his second half I thought a one year $10-12m deal would get it done.
I'm somewhat surprised he got the second year. I think this points pretty directly to the team's intention to spend to the cap. The second year lowers the AAV. If they felt the had the room under the budget, they probably would have just given him a few more bucks on a one year deal.
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Post by jmei on Oct 31, 2014 6:24:43 GMT -5
A two-year deal for Uehara is lower-risk than a four-year deal for Miller or Robertson at a similar AAV (which is what it's going to take to ink those guys). Age is an issue in terms of injury and performance risk, but that's why it's only two years and at a low AAV. Plus, for a team with the payroll capability of the Red Sox, this kind of short-term deal is eminently bearable even if he pulls a Joe Nathan (who, by the way, got 2/$20m last year despite being of a similar age but the clearly inferior pitcher). I don't buy that because other deals were worse, this was a wise deal. Nor do I buy that the only alternative was a n expensive late inning reliever. If there is one thing we've learned about relievers is that you don't sign them to big contracts. They are extremely risky, especially if they are older. Uehara also had a long stretch where he couldn't get anyone out. Besides, finding top relievers rarely comes by design. Uehara himself was the Red Sox fourth option for the closer position in 2013. The KC Royals had the best bullpen in baseball based upon a failed starter, a mediocre starter at a non-major college conference drafted in the 10th round, and a international free agent who signed for under 30k. I would love to see a study seeing how far your money actually goes when you spend it on the bullpen. My guess is that KC is not unusual and the best bullpens are always filled with guys who are young and weren't all that widely heralded when acquired. I'm with you on the "don't sign relievers to big contracts" bandwagon. I just don't think 2/$18m is that big of a contract. It's extremely unlikely that it's going to inhibit their spending enough to be the difference between contending and not contending in the next two years. And while many elite bullpens have been built on reclamation projects and such, it doesn't mean that the only way you should try to build a bullpen is to to rely on under-the-radar guys. Re-signing an extremely effective reliever is a good way to complement the existing talent in the bullpen, which by the way includes a cheap IFA and a couple of converted starters. Besides, what's the alternative here? You'll be paying close to that AAV for any of the other top-end relief arms on the market, so unless you either want to trust the back-end of the bullpen to Mujica (and then move everyone else moves up a slot, which erodes depth) this seems to be the best way to go.
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Post by moonstone2 on Oct 31, 2014 6:51:55 GMT -5
My alternative would be to go with Mujica and Tazawa at the back and and try some of these young pitchers in the pen.
I have my doubts that DelaRosa and Webster will ever be effective starters, but I think both can be very good relievers.
There is probably more than one way to build a bullpen, I juat doubt that acquiring a lot of veterans is the most effective way.
I would certainly prefer to build it the way KC did, but I don't believe the Red Sox will ever do that. They never would have let Holland or Herrera pitch in the majors. Will they ever give Hembree, Wilson, Garcia and others a chance?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 31, 2014 7:03:15 GMT -5
I have a hard time understanding the question of "who else are you going to get" (not meaning to single Chris H.) because, as I think everyone will agree, there are plenty of ways to build a bullpen and much of it has to do with some good fortune. So in that vein, I think this is a good signing. He has been elite
If we can agree that Koji/Breslow/Badenhop cost 10.5 million last year..you now have eaten up 85% of that on 1 pitcher and you have 2 roster spots (if we agree that Breslow and Badenhop are not re-signed) to fill. If can create undue influence on the team's stated desire to stay under the luxury tax and field a championship club.
That is the potential problem here..
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 31, 2014 7:38:39 GMT -5
See, I'm not comfortable at all with Mujica and Tazawa as options 1 and 2, which is why I'm ok with this signing. I'm even less comfortable with a bullpen consisting of Mujica/Tazawa and rookies.
There is certainly more than one way to build a bullpen, but with Uehara at least holding down the ninth and letting everything else work out from there, to me, it's a lot safer to put some of those younger pitchers into the bullpen and see if any of them take off. To me, if you're going to run Mujica and Tazawa as your 8th and 9th, you need to get some vets to shore up the bullpen... like a couple guys that would cost $4M.... which would cost about the same as just getting the sure(-ish) thing in Uehara for $9M.
As for the "Koji/Breslow/Badenhop" point you make, jerrygarciaparra, why are we randomly selecting three pitchers? The seven most-used relievers for Boston last year were Uehara/Badenhop/Tazawa/Mujica/Breslow/Miller/Layne, in terms of appearances. That bullpen cost $4.25M+$2.15M+$1.275M+$4.75M+$3.825M+$1,903,125+$450K = $18,603,125 Right now, for 2015, they have Uehara/Mujica/Tazawa, which costs $9M+$4.75M+arb ($2-3M? I'm always awful at this, so someone tell me if I'm wrong) = something like $15-17M? But if you spend another $2M to get a Badenhop-like veteran in the middle, and surround with kids making the league minimum... aren't you paying about the same price for your bullpen, give or take a couple million?
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Post by joshv02 on Oct 31, 2014 7:41:00 GMT -5
Alex Wilson has pitched in over 50 innings in the majors over two years. That seems like a very solid "chance." I suspect that Jason Garcia -- who has yet to pitch above A ball -- will be given a chance eventually, if can pitch OK above A ball. I agree I would be surprised if they Herrera him -- i.e., give him less than 70 innings in A+/above, but I could see him breaking into the majors in 2016. Kelvin Herrera was twice optioned last year after having moments of inconsistency -- was he not "given a chance" a that point? In the middle of a story, it is hard to see the ending. I suspect that 5 or so out of 8 primary bullpen spots will be from homegrown players. KC was roughly the same (depending on when you are looking at them, and arguing a little about "primary.")
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Oct 31, 2014 8:17:18 GMT -5
Just not worth it. If the Red Sox have 55 million to spend this off-season then they just spent 9 of that on a 40 year old closer who started to look like he was on the verge of retirement. I agree with whomever said "good-bye any chance of getting Miller". Unless they plan on rebuilding the bullpen with Uehara and Miller, but I doubt that's the case when they need to fill two starting rotation spots as well as 3B.
They could always find a suitor for Victorino and make my point moot.
Chris, Mujica and Tazawa have shown success in the past. I wouldn't worry too much about them playing important fixtures on this staff considering how volatile relievers can be.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 31, 2014 8:21:45 GMT -5
Exactly. Nor was it Taz, who may be as good as about anyone in the 7-8th inning, but I don't see him ever transitioning to the 9th, much like Bard when Papelbon needed a rest day in prior seasons. Miller was going to cost more money over more seasons. Maybe even 4y time all the bids came in for another guy who has never closed. Possibly Uehara wanted a deal finished early in FA. This one makes sense.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 31, 2014 8:23:00 GMT -5
See, I'm not comfortable at all with Mujica and Tazawa as options 1 and 2, which is why I'm ok with this signing. I'm even less comfortable with a bullpen consisting of Mujica/Tazawa and rookies. There is certainly more than one way to build a bullpen, but with Uehara at least holding down the ninth and letting everything else work out from there, to me, it's a lot safer to put some of those younger pitchers into the bullpen and see if any of them take off. To me, if you're going to run Mujica and Tazawa as your 8th and 9th, you need to get some vets to shore up the bullpen... like a couple guys that would cost $4M.... which would cost about the same as just getting the sure(-ish) thing in Uehara for $9M. As for the "Koji/Breslow/Badenhop" point you make, jerrygarciaparra, why are we randomly selecting three pitchers? The seven most-used relievers for Boston last year were Uehara/Badenhop/Tazawa/Mujica/Breslow/Miller/Layne, in terms of appearances. That bullpen cost $4.25M+$2.15M+$1.275M+$4.75M+$3.825M+$1,903,125+$450K = $18,603,125 Right now, for 2015, they have Uehara/Mujica/Tazawa, which costs $9M+$4.75M+arb ($2-3M? I'm always awful at this, so someone tell me if I'm wrong) = something like $15-17M? But if you spend another $2M to get a Badenhop-like veteran in the middle, and surround with kids making the league minimum... aren't you paying about the same price for your bullpen, give or take a couple million? I think my selection was just based on what we may actually know at this point. It does seem arbitrary and I apologize for that. Given your potentially accurate description of the 2015 bullpen cost...and let's go high end and call in a 20 million bullpen...almost half is tied to one pitcher. I think that is a lot of risk for one pitcher...who could underperform or get hurt...as that would almost certainly call for additional monies. Sometimes I read posts and everyone seems so afraid of the longer years or excess of 20 million...and I think those are arbitrary also. Those kind of may be better for the long term planning...but this type of contract can be equally debilitating to the short term and it just seems like it gets excused because it doesn't hamper long term. A wasted 2-5 million is a serious matter for us to be contenders again in 2015...which is what I want the most.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Oct 31, 2014 8:37:11 GMT -5
Exactly. Nor was it Taz, who may be as good as about anyone in the 7-8th inning, but I don't see him ever transitioning to the 9th, much like Bard when Papelbon needed a rest day in prior seasons. Miller was going to cost more money over more seasons. Maybe even 4y time all the bids came in for another guy who has never closed. Possibly Uehara wanted a deal finished early in FA. This one makes sense. Or over-pay for Miller?
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Post by jmei on Oct 31, 2014 10:20:29 GMT -5
Chris, Mujica and Tazawa have shown success in the past. I wouldn't worry too much about them playing important fixtures on this staff considering how volatile relievers can be. The issue is less that Mujica/Tazawa can't be good late-innings bullpen pieces, but instead that there's not much reliability behind them. Aside from Layne (a likely LOOGY-type at best) and Workman, it's guys like Wilson and Hembree who have yet to impress even at AAA or converted starters that (a) may be better off trying to stick in the rotation (De La Rosa, Webster, Ranaudo, Barnes, Escobar, Wright) and (b) may not make a smooth transition to the bullpen. Adding Uehara pushes everyone down a slot and makes me much more confident in the overall picture.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 31, 2014 10:52:33 GMT -5
My alternative would be to go with Mujica and Tazawa at the back and and try some of these young pitchers in the pen. I have my doubts that DelaRosa and Webster will ever be effective starters, but I think both can be very good relievers. There is probably more than one way to build a bullpen, I juat doubt that acquiring a lot of veterans is the most effective way. I would certainly prefer to build it the way KC did, but I don't believe the Red Sox will ever do that. They never would have let Holland or Herrera pitch in the majors. Will they ever give Hembree, Wilson, Garcia and others a chance? Wilson and Hembree pitched out of the Red Sox pen last year. What on earth are you talking about? I get what you're saying about building a bullpen through internal options, but re-signing Koji doesn't mean they still can't do that. It just gives them that much more depth.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 31, 2014 12:12:43 GMT -5
^ This.
I get the reason having $9M of a $20M bullpen tied up in one guy seems risky, but the reason it isn't is that you are in theory underpaying others relative to their value. This could include Tazawa and any of the young pitchers that could comprise the bullpen. The risk would be if every pitcher were being paid commensurate with their ability, then yes that has some risk. The point of looking at what you're spending on the whole bullpen is that there is no effective difference in the short term between paying $9M for Koji and $11M for the rest versus paying, say, $6M and $14M if you're essentially going to have the same or similar talent in either case.
Now, if everyone ELSE comes out and sucks, then yes, this causes a potential issue. I don't think that's what anyone here was positing, I don't think.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 31, 2014 12:47:09 GMT -5
Is there a salary cap for the bullpen that I'm not aware of?
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 31, 2014 12:51:13 GMT -5
Is there a salary cap for the bullpen that I'm not aware of? No. But given the needs in rotation and third base, yes.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 31, 2014 14:27:36 GMT -5
By the way, I could certainly be wrong, but the $55M number... this is before the trade of an outfielder that we all know is coming, yes?
Not saying there's no budget in play here, but I don't think we need to worry quite so much about that number. Something is coming off of it at some point (unless Betts is the one who gets traded or something).
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 31, 2014 14:35:52 GMT -5
By the way, I could certainly be wrong, but the $55M number... this is before the trade of an outfielder that we all know is coming, yes? Not saying there's no budget in play here, but I don't think we need to worry quite so much about that number. Something is coming off of it at some point (unless Betts is the one who gets traded or something). 100% agree and it won't be, cannot be Victorino with his missing 90% of last season, or not at least him and getting any salary relief. The more Farrell and the FO attempt to dispel the rumors of Cespedes being difficult to coach, or the fact that he's a short timer? The more IMO he's a goner. Grasping for more in value from other GM's is all that is. They need a spot for Betts and he's the only guy with really ANY trade value, other than Betts of the entire lot. Edit: Should add other than JBJ whom they can option out.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 31, 2014 15:37:03 GMT -5
By the way, I could certainly be wrong, but the $55M number... this is before the trade of an outfielder that we all know is coming, yes? Not saying there's no budget in play here, but I don't think we need to worry quite so much about that number. Something is coming off of it at some point (unless Betts is the one who gets traded or something). We also need to stop talking about the $55 million figure as if it derives from a hard cap. It doesn't. The overage - $ the team pays for going over the cap - resets when a team falls under that number. The Sox were under that in 2014. It's conceivable that the team wouldn't give much of a thought to going over it this year. As for Uehara and his salary: how valuable has the guy been? Using the numbers jmei lays out, even more valuable than Kershaw in the 70 innings he pitched. That makes his salary still less than the latter's over a pro-rated 210 innings. Hatfield's numbers show that his years as a reliever have seen very little in the way of variability or regression. Is there risk with a 39 year-old? You bet. That's apparently a risk the team has factored in and is willing to pay for. To my way of thinking, bullpens are built with a starting core, then on the fly as the year progresses. The Sox certainly have a lot of choices when it comes to younger hard-throwing arms. Another vet or two and they should be fine. I'd also like to offer up the possibility that Tazawa could easily be the closer in a pinch, one who's much more reliable than Mujica who's been wildly varying in his effectiveness, both in St. Louis and in Boston.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 31, 2014 21:13:45 GMT -5
I would have gone 2 years and $15 mil with Koji and maybe watched him walk but they are making a statement in signing Koji at that level. They absolutely intend to contend in 2015.
Koji's a frail looking guy who has been worked hard over the years. And he's maybe feeling some of that wear and tear. He's probably not the guy we have been used to going forward.
When I run the numbers and assuming they sign either Headley or the Panda at 3rd, I don't see how this team signs 2 top starters. I've said over and over that I'd use an internal solution at 3rd and sign two top starters but assuming they do sign a good 3rd base FA, another decent move is to stock up in the pen and go with defense at 3rd ( Headley ).
Or trade Cespedes for a short term 3rd baseman....
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 1, 2014 13:29:27 GMT -5
As I understand, it we lose roughly $45-$50 mil in revenue sharing dollars if we go over the luxury tax limit. I'm betting they don't do that. It's a hard cap to me. When that issue is gone in a year or 2 I bet we go over the limit then, as we did before.
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