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Alex Hassan claimed by A's
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 19, 2014 22:27:47 GMT -5
It's actually later than December 2nd. December 2nd is the last day a club can tender a major league contract but not the last day the player can sign.
Technically a player has until March 1 to sign the contract to avoid the club automatically renewing the player's old contract, but I am sure teams offer financial incentives to sign earlier.
Until the player and the club have agreed on terms for the upcomming season a player who has been on a minor league roster in 7 different seasons , not counting rehab assignments, can't be outrighted to the minors.
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Post by jmei on Nov 19, 2014 22:56:31 GMT -5
Again: do you think Britton is a quality left-handed reliever? The answer is almost certainly not, at least in 2015. And if that's the case, it doesn't matter if he's their second-best lefty reliever, he's still not good enough to use a 40-man spot on.
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Post by jmei on Nov 19, 2014 22:58:37 GMT -5
Which is to say, a left-handed reliever is not like a catcher where if you don't have one on the roster, you literally can't play the game. You only keep one on the roster if he is one of your seven best relievers, and Britton is not and does not project to be.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 7:17:52 GMT -5
Again: do you think Britton is a quality left-handed reliever? The answer is almost certainly not, at least in 2015. And if that's the case, it doesn't matter if he's their second-best lefty reliever, he's still not good enough to use a 40-man spot on. The Red Sox cannot assign Britton to the minors, but in the spring they would be able to do so. Hassan's contract could be assigned to the minors., however Do you think he's so bad that he has almost no chance of becoming a good lefty reliever? If not then doesn't trying to get a 27 year old left fielder through assignment waivers seem like a better option especially when they don't have any quality left handed relievers? You release guys like Britton when you have no leftties, sooner or later you'll be needing a lefty when you don't have one.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 20, 2014 7:48:27 GMT -5
Britton looked much better at the end of the year than his year-long stats indicated. I'd keep him around if possible. Maybe he's one of those guys who got bored/frustrated in the minors.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 8:16:33 GMT -5
Britton looked much better at the end of the year than his year-long stats indicated. I'd keep him around if possible. Maybe he's one of those guys who got bored/frustrated in the minors. Left handed pitchers who throw 95 don't grow on trees so you have to give them as long as you possibly can to figure it out. I would imagine that Britton will either pitch well enough to make the team or clear waivers if he doesn't. That will give him another full season with the organization to figure it out.
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Post by jmei on Nov 20, 2014 8:27:14 GMT -5
The Red Sox cannot assign Britton to the minors, but in the spring they would be able to do so. Hassan's contract could be assigned to the minors., however Do you think he's so bad that he has almost no chance of becoming a good lefty reliever? If not then doesn't trying to get a 27 year old left fielder through assignment waivers seem like a better option especially when they don't have any quality left handed relievers? You release guys like Britton when you have no leftties, sooner or later you'll be needing a lefty when you don't have one. I'm not sure why waiting until the spring to put Britton through waivers is any different than doing so now in terms of the likelihood of being claimed. I think Britton, as a player/prospect, is a good bit worse than Hassan. I think Britton has a fair low chance of being an above-average major-league-caliber lefty reliever, as he's struggled with his command his whole career and has never missed enough bats as his stuff might suggest. He has an even lower chance of doing so in Boston (because he's out of options). I also think if the front office thought they could sneak Hassan through waivers, then that was a bad judgment. Someone was going to claim him-- above-replacement-level major-league-ready players with options don't clear waivers very often. I'd rather a 100% chance of losing Lavarnway or Britton (whether through waivers or by their declaring free agency) than a 95% chance of losing Hassan. In general, I don't think you should let positional scarcity dictate your roster decisions this early in the offseason, especially when you're talking about lefty/righty stuff. Balance in terms of L/R is nice to have, but I'd rather have a good right-handed reliever than a bad left-handed one, and Britton is a bad left-handed one. Again: you don't need a left-handed reliever. You just need guys who can get LHH out, and between Uehara, Tazawa, and Mujica, they have three guys with terrific splitters who can do so. (For the same reason, I don't think they need to add a left-handed bat this offseason. If one exists who fills a position of need (e.g., Headley, Sandoval, Valbuena), than that's a guy worth considering, but I'm skeptical of any plan that requires too many moving pieces just to get a good but not great left-handed hitter (LaRoche, CarGo, etc.) into the lineup.)
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 9:28:40 GMT -5
The difference is that if Britton were to be waived today and cleared the Sox would have to release him per Rule 55f. Wheras in the spring, they could assign him to the minors.
Further, if Britton doesn't pitch well this spring, no one is going to have him pitch in a game that means anything so he will likely clear.
The Sox have been very clear that they DO need a lefty in the pen and would prefer two. One need only look at the 2004 division series to realize that as Mike Scoscia had only Troy Percival to pitch to David Ortiz wirh the season on the line.
But what I think that it boils down to is that your opinion of Hassan is higher than that of the front office's. Minor league stats are important, but they mean less for older minor leagie players. How many players established a career at age 27 or later based mostly on their hit tool? It was not 100 percent that he would be claimed as 1/3 of the league passed.
As far as releasing Lavarnway or Weeks that is probably not a real argument. They are likely to non-tender both players on 12/2.unless a deal is made.
It comes down to the choice of releasing Britton or trying to get a marginal player through waivers. I think the Sox are much more likely to need and use Britton this year than Hassan, given how many right handed left field only bats they are sitting on and how few lefty relievers they have.
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Post by jmei on Nov 20, 2014 10:03:39 GMT -5
Just to be clear: in a vacuum (i.e., with no consideration of scarcity or the presence of anyone ahead of them), would you prefer Hassan or Britton?
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 20, 2014 10:26:19 GMT -5
Question separate from the Hassan Britton debate. Was Hassan put on waivers so the Sox had room to claim Francisco and meet the 40 man roster crunch. Not sure how the logistics of this plays out.
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Post by dirtywater on Nov 20, 2014 10:47:17 GMT -5
Just to be clear: in a vacuum (i.e., with no consideration of scarcity or the presence of anyone ahead of them), would you prefer Hassan or Britton? Britton has a bit more prospect pedigree. He does carry risk though due to his inconsistency on (and off the field). I think it's just a ceiling vs. floor argument, Sox chose to keep a guy who had a bit more upside even through wild inconsistencies. Hassan - they basically already know what he is. He really only has one thing going for him (OBP). He's a Quad A type which are dime a dozen throughout the minors. He could very well not look terrible in a platoon role in Oakland, but it's nothing to lose sleep over. In a vacuum - you could argue either way. Right now for the Red Sox - I think they want one more look at Britton in spring training cause he could slot into a role.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 20, 2014 10:50:29 GMT -5
Question separate from the Hassan Britton debate. Was Hassan put on waivers so the Sox had room to claim Francisco and meet the 40 man roster crunch. Not sure how the logistics of this plays out. I believe they were clearing roster space generally to have room for anyone who came available. I don't think they specifically had Francisco in mind or anything, if that's what you're asking. I've got them adding four guys, so getting that fifth spot at a time they thought they might be able to get Hassan through seems to have been the plan. We'll see today, though. They could also clear more sposts, as has been discussed.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 11:17:19 GMT -5
Question separate from the Hassan Britton debate. Was Hassan put on waivers so the Sox had room to claim Francisco and meet the 40 man roster crunch. Not sure how the logistics of this plays out. I am going to say no. The roster is going to be at 40 today after they add Coyle, Shaw, Swihart, and Rodriguez. Fransisco, Weeks, and Lavarnway are all non-tender candidates assuming the Red Sox sign some free agents over the next couple of weeks and are unable to clear up roster space through trades. They may also have to add whomever is coming back to the Sox in the Doubront trade after the Rule 5 draft.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 11:35:11 GMT -5
Just to be clear: in a vacuum (i.e., with no consideration of scarcity or the presence of anyone ahead of them), would you prefer Hassan or Britton? Let's consider that I had a blank 40 man roster and were given a choice of one of these two players to reserve. For me I would take Britton because it would be my only chance to get a left hander with power stuff. The Miller trade showed how valuable those can be. Even if they don't throw strikes, if you manage to turn them around they are worth enough to get a really good pitching prospect. Players with Hassan's skill set are much more common, and there is NO chance he'll ever be valuable enough to acquire a player like Rodriguez or anything close to that. Like DW said it's a ceiling versus floor argument, and in my opinion, when it comes down to players on the margins of the 40 man roster you take the player with the higher ceiling because you can probably replace the player with the higher floor. But of course you have to consider that the Red Sox already have 5 guys on the roster that are LF/1B none of whom are significantly worse than Hassan.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Nov 20, 2014 12:13:36 GMT -5
I am going to say no. The roster is going to be at 40 today after they add Coyle, Shaw, Swihart, and Rodriguez. Fransisco, Weeks, and Lavarnway are all non-tender candidates assuming the Red Sox sign some free agents over the next couple of weeks and are unable to clear up roster space through trades. They may also have to add whomever is coming back to the Sox in the Doubront trade after the Rule 5 draft. I do not see how Weeks and Lavarnway are non-tender candidates. They both would be on the MLB minimum and only earn that while in the majors. They ultimately have to accept the Sox offer as they cannot go to arb. So they get waived after March 1 according to your reading. (I am not convinced they must wait that long.)
examples 2/3/14 Boston Outrighted Brayan Villarreal to Pawtucket. 2/1/13 Boston Outrighted Chris Carpenter to Pawtucket. 11/26/2012 Boston Outrighted Ivan De Jesus to Pawtucket (had 8 years) 12/22/2012 Boston Outrighted Pedro Beato to Pawtucket
I am not convinced these MINIMUM players have to accept their contract. They have no choice. The Dejesus outrighting seems to defy the Dec 2nd rule.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 13:38:39 GMT -5
I am going to say no. The roster is going to be at 40 today after they add Coyle, Shaw, Swihart, and Rodriguez. Fransisco, Weeks, and Lavarnway are all non-tender candidates assuming the Red Sox sign some free agents over the next couple of weeks and are unable to clear up roster space through trades. They may also have to add whomever is coming back to the Sox in the Doubront trade after the Rule 5 draft. I do not see how Weeks and Lavarnway are non-tender candidates. They both would be on the MLB minimum and only earn that while in the majors. They ultimately have to accept the Sox offer as they cannot go to arb. So they get waived after March 1 according to your reading. (I am not convinced they must wait that long.)
examples 2/3/14 Boston Outrighted Brayan Villarreal to Pawtucket. 2/1/13 Boston Outrighted Chris Carpenter to Pawtucket. 11/26/2012 Boston Outrighted Ivan De Jesus to Pawtucket (had 8 years) 12/22/2012 Boston Outrighted Pedro Beato to Pawtucket
I am not convinced these MINIMUM players have to accept their contract. They have no choice. The Dejesus outrighting seems to defy the Dec 2nd rule.
You can sign a player on your major league roster at any time for any following season and if you do, then you have the right to assign the players contract outright to the minors at anytime until the contract expires regardless of his service time, provided he clears waivers. In certain cases the player might have incentives to do this if he's paid more money for the minor league portion of his deal, wants to use any of the team's resources during the winter, or needs the team to sponsor him to play winter ball. I would imagine such signings aren't reported even if they are filed, and offer sheets, which would count for this purpose are certainly not reported. According to MLB rules the player cannot play in a game unless he has signed his contract, but he has the right to negotiate his contract up until March 1st when the team has the right to automatically renew the prior year's deal. The team however may want the player to sign earlier and thus would have to offer financial incentives to do so. Notice how the player in the one case you cited before 12/2 was traded a month later, so I would imagine that he signed early with the idea that the Sox were trying to send him to an organization where he would have a better chance at the majors. Team's DO non-tender players with less than three years of major league service if they wish to relinquish their rights to the player for the following season. You might remember that this happened with Ryan Kalish a year ago. Part of the reason for doing this is that there are several restrictions on the major league club on the salary they can offer the major league player even if they do not spend a day in the majors. For example a player who does not have a split contract cannot sign a contract that guarantees him a minor league salary less then $300K even if his contract is assigned to a minor league club and he never plays a major league game. So in answer to your original question, as to why Derrick Gibson isn't put on the roster for a day and then designated so the club can have an extra year of control, is because team's can't do this unless the player signs before he is designated. 6 year minor league free agents can make a lot of money, in the open market so there is no way they are going to agree to such a deal unless they are paid. It's probably easier to just let them become free agents and pay them. I don't know for sure if Britton, Weeks, or Lavarnway has signed their 2015 deals yet, but if they haven't they could not be assigned to the minors.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 20, 2014 13:47:03 GMT -5
“@orioles: The Orioles have claimed OF Alex Hassan off waivers from Oakland.”
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 20, 2014 14:04:13 GMT -5
Ha that's awesome - can't believe this thread got this long but not as much as I can't believe Lavarnaway still has a job
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 14:15:00 GMT -5
“@orioles: The Orioles have claimed OF Alex Hassan off waivers from Oakland.” Indirect result of Butler signing. Hassan maybe a candidate to be designated a third time this winter. The Orioles roster was at 33 a couple of days ago and they have 5 players they would like to add to protect from Rule 5. They make a Rule 5 selection every year so that would put them at 40. If they start signing players, they are going to have to remove someone and Hassan is a candidate to be that someone.
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Post by GyIantosca on Nov 20, 2014 14:16:47 GMT -5
2 thoughts, I have, you wonder with Hassan getting this much attention if the Sox were better off making a deal with him or a second or third piece of a deal?
Also I feel with Britton is also the same when we had Iglesis the last couple of years he was stuck in AAA and he was bored or frustrated . I mean these kids are only human and I think he might of had a shot last year if they didn't have Breslow on the roster. What did Breslow do? Eat up 4 million.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 20, 2014 14:18:55 GMT -5
I'm guessing his thank you note to the A's will be a little bit shorter.
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Post by joshv02 on Nov 20, 2014 14:21:16 GMT -5
But but but... Billy Beane is so smart! Clearly, it must have made sense to waive Hassan now!
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 20, 2014 14:23:08 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this is quite common for a player to be claimed and waived a couple times in a row during the offseason? Didn't we put like 20 claims on Rosario a year ago?
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Post by joshv02 on Nov 20, 2014 14:39:21 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this is quite common for a player to be claimed and waived a couple times in a row during the offseason? Didn't we put like 20 claims on Rosario a year ago? Yes, and Yes.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 20, 2014 14:40:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure this is quite common for a player to be claimed and waived a couple times in a row during the offseason? Didn't we put like 20 claims on Rosario a year ago? Rosario was claimed from Miami and then put on waivers and then traded to Oakland for Graham Godfrey. Boston then reacquired him on waivers only to be claimed by the Cubs. The Cubs then lost him on waivers to the Giants where he landed and for whom he pitched well that season. So that winter he was involved in 5 different transactions and acquired by the Red Sox twice on waivers.
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