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Red Sox to sign Hanley Ramirez for $88m/4yr + Vest Option
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 24, 2014 19:07:13 GMT -5
He hit .283/.369/.448 last year, .345/.402/.638 in 2013, .300/.378/.475 in 2010, and .342/.410/.543 in 2009. So in the last six years, he's had two MVP-caliber seasons and two more All-Star-caliber ones. And hit total WAR is 13.2 for those 6 seasons. So he's been a 2.2 war player for those seasons. Look...this is a case where the numbers are empty. If you want to throw out slash numbers to prove your point that's fine....but it's selective.. You're quite selective sir. WAR obviously factors in defensive numbers. Considering he's been a horrible defensive short stop, a position he shouldn't have played like ever, make his WAR go down.His average oWAR over the last six years is 3.21. Considering he's been injured a lot, that's solid value. Sure, staying healthy is a skill as well, but LF will be less demanding on his body, thus staying healthy might be easier in the future.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2014 19:13:08 GMT -5
Obviously the health concerns are real and he's not going to provide any defensive value, but what it comes down to with Hanley is that he has more offensive upside than any other hitter the Red Sox are going to be able to acquire this offseason. That alone justifies the signing.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 24, 2014 19:19:23 GMT -5
And hit total WAR is 13.2 for those 6 seasons. So he's been a 2.2 war player for those seasons. Look...this is a case where the numbers are empty. If you want to throw out slash numbers to prove your point that's fine....but it's selective.. You're quite selective sir. WAR obviously factors in defensive numbers. Considering he's been a horrible defensive short stop, a position he shouldn't have played like ever, make his WAR go down.His average oWAR over the last six years is 3.21. Considering he's been injured a lot, that's solid value. Sure, staying healthy is a skill as well, but LF will be less demanding on his body, thus staying healthy might be easier in the future. And your being selective on my selectivity of jmei's selectivity. I saw that the defensive metrics hurt his overall WAR rating..unfortunately there is a problem of actually having to play the field..so I believe it's relevant to his valuation. If the past is prologue (and 5 out of the last 6 years he hasn't played 100 games)...it carries even more weight. We definitely need offense so I am all on board and hope he can stay on the field.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 24, 2014 19:23:22 GMT -5
You're quite selective sir. WAR obviously factors in defensive numbers. Considering he's been a horrible defensive short stop, a position he shouldn't have played like ever, make his WAR go down.His average oWAR over the last six years is 3.21. Considering he's been injured a lot, that's solid value. Sure, staying healthy is a skill as well, but LF will be less demanding on his body, thus staying healthy might be easier in the future. And your being selective on my selectivity of jmei's selectivity. I saw that the defensive metrics hurt his overall WAR rating..unfortunately there is a problem of actually having to play the field..so I believe it's relevant to his valuation. If the past is prologue (and 5 out of the last 6 years he hasn't played 100 games)...it carries even more weight. We definitely need offense so I am all on board and hope he can stay on the field. Surely he has to play the field, but he won't play short stop which is the the position his bad defensive stats are based on. Considering his solid athleticism I could see him be at least an average left fielder in Fenway.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 19:26:30 GMT -5
You're quite selective sir. WAR obviously factors in defensive numbers. Considering he's been a horrible defensive short stop, a position he shouldn't have played like ever, make his WAR go down.His average oWAR over the last six years is 3.21. Considering he's been injured a lot, that's solid value. Sure, staying healthy is a skill as well, but LF will be less demanding on his body, thus staying healthy might be easier in the future. And your being selective on my selectivity of jmei's selectivity. I saw that the defensive metrics hurt his overall WAR rating..unfortunately there is a problem of actually having to play the field..so I believe it's relevant to his valuation. If the past is prologue ( and 5 out of the last 6 years he hasn't played 100 games)...it carries even more weight. We definitely need offense so I am all on board and hope he can stay on the field. Wait, what? Hanley? 2014: 128 2013: 86 2012: 157 2011: 92 2010: 142 2006-2009: Avg 154 He's had two years where injuries have really sapped him, and in 2013 he was at 191 WRC+. He's had one season where he hasn't been an elite player. He's been a top flight bat in 7 of his 9 career years. They signed Hanley for his bat, which should be elite through most of his deal, and his lack of defense should be mitigated by moving from SS to 3B/LF, where he's more likely to come closer to an average defender
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 24, 2014 19:38:40 GMT -5
Wait, what? Hanley? 2014: 128 2013: 86 2012: 157 2011: 92 2010: 142 2006-2009: Avg 154 He's had two years where injuries have really sapped him, and in 2013 he was at 191 WRC+. He's had one season where he hasn't been an elite player. He's been a top flight bat in 7 of his 9 career years. They signed Hanley for his bat, which should be elite through most of his deal, and his lack of defense should be mitigated by moving from SS to 3B/LF, where he's more likely to come closer to an average defender No shoot!! I was totally misreading the B-ref page. My points are heretofore to be ignored (at least on this topic). I will now walk away with my head down.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 24, 2014 20:35:50 GMT -5
You're talking out of your ass. If nothing else, they will dump them to avoid the toxicity that will invietably occur if that many vets are stuck on the bench. With Hanley and Panda and a backup catcher they have more than the 13 they will carry with no options. Cespedes, one of Nava, Napoli or Craig and likely WMB makes the most sense at this point.
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Post by jmei on Nov 24, 2014 21:07:43 GMT -5
He hit .283/.369/.448 last year, .345/.402/.638 in 2013, .300/.378/.475 in 2010, and .342/.410/.543 in 2009. So in the last six years, he's had two MVP-caliber seasons and two more All-Star-caliber ones. And hit total WAR is 13.2 for those 6 seasons. So he's been a 2.2 war player for those seasons. Look...this is a case where the numbers are empty. If you want to throw out slash numbers to prove your point that's fine....but it's selective.. He's averaged 3.4 rWAR over the last six years, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. ADD: yeah, you just misread BR and didn't take into account that year when he was traded. No worries, I make that mistake all the time.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 24, 2014 21:49:26 GMT -5
Sox could also find themselves in a decent position to upgrade the PTBNL from the Cubs. I wouldn't expect pitching to be coming back though unless they involve a third team.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 24, 2014 22:07:24 GMT -5
I think if they sign both Hanley and Pablo it makes it likely the Sox are willing to go over the cap this year. I can't imagine they make both moves in place of a starter. I wouldn't be so quick to assume they are going significantly over. I think they will be clearing payroll, and/or we will hear in June that they can't add payroll.
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Post by jmei on Nov 24, 2014 22:10:18 GMT -5
If they go over the luxury tax threshold, the tax rate they'd pay is 17.5%, which is not much at all. I wouldn't be surprised if they were $20m+ over the cap this year. ADD: and I've discussed before how the idea that the new CBA strengthened the luxury tax has mostly been a red herring.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Nov 24, 2014 22:32:49 GMT -5
I'm not the biggest fan of signing BOTH players, and I'm not the biggest fan of the AAV, or giving up draft picks, but I can't fault the organization for trying. They could easily sit around and nickel and dime and end up with nothing, but they are spending their money with the effort of building a championship caliber team. They went out and got players.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 24, 2014 22:52:30 GMT -5
It makes sense to go all out on FA some years and lose no draft picks at all in others. Having a protected #1 helps a lot and if we sign even 3-4 compensated picks it doesn't hurt us that bad draft wise compared to the benefit. After signing Lester, a reliever like Miller/Gregerson.... and maybe trading for a Jaso they will already be over the cap in the current configuration and still be needing a #2 probably. With someone like Cespedes being dangled almost for sure to a team like Cinci for a Leake/ Latos etc...
I sense that they may still want Lester and Hamels to round off this team and go over the cap doing it but put the Sox right back in the catbird seat doing it but they do have a lot of options still and trades are highly likely to be in the mix.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 24, 2014 23:40:02 GMT -5
If they go over the luxury tax threshold, the tax rate they'd pay is 17.5%, which is not much at all. I wouldn't be surprised if they were $20m+ over the cap this year. ADD: and I've discussed before how the idea that the new CBA strengthened the luxury tax has mostly been a red herring. The most tax they have ever paid is 6.6m. That would mean they could go 34m over to pay that. However once you start going over by 20-30m ,it's very hard to get back under the cap in future years. Besides, they still need at least two starters and at least one reliever. That is going to cost more than 30m. They do have some payroll to clear, but I don't think there is any guarantee you can trade their excess guys for pitching. One way or another, they are going to clear payroll.
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Post by jmei on Nov 25, 2014 7:44:57 GMT -5
I agree that insofar as Cespedes is a lock to be traded, they're going to clear payroll, but I don't think they necessarily have to trade Victorino or Craig just to save money. Fair point on the going under in future years point-- they already have a good amount of money committed to 2016, though 2017 and beyond looks pretty clean.
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Post by moonstone2 on Nov 25, 2014 8:11:55 GMT -5
Clearing Victorino is going to be tough unless a sweetener is thrown in. You might have to eat some of Craig's contract too. Clearing Napoli and Cespedes gives them 30m more. You could clear Mujica and that's anorher 4.5m.
You gotta think they will need to add 40m more in payroll if you count possible trades, to fill all their needs.
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Post by jmei on Nov 25, 2014 8:18:34 GMT -5
If they add 40m to cover their three needs (say, $24m Lester, $12m SP2, $4m RP), but subtract Cespedes ($9m AAV), they add $31m in payroll. Per Speier, they're roughly $14m below the cap (assuming Francisco is non-tendered), which means they'd only be $16m over, which seems pretty doable.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,753
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Post by mobaz on Nov 25, 2014 8:42:44 GMT -5
It makes sense to go all out on FA some years and lose no draft picks at all in others. Having a protected #1 helps a lot and if we sign even 3-4 compensated picks it doesn't hurt us that bad draft wise compared to the benefit. If they signed Pablo this year (filling 3B need) and a Hanley next year (filling LF/1B need), no one would bat an eye. But Hanley isn't available next year (and other than Cespedes no one knows who will be) so they bought a year early while they also have a protected pick. Spree does not bother me, though AAV under actual contracts seems excessive for both. Neither feels like a "deal" anymore. Now we NEED to sign Lester, or spending a year early is a problem, if we have to sacrifice Betts/Bogaerts/Blake to field a viable rotation.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 25, 2014 9:04:59 GMT -5
If they go over the luxury tax threshold, the tax rate they'd pay is 17.5%, which is not much at all. I wouldn't be surprised if they were $20m+ over the cap this year. ADD: and I've discussed before how the idea that the new CBA strengthened the luxury tax has mostly been a red herring. The most tax they have ever paid is 6.6m. That would mean they could go 34m over to pay that. However once you start going over by 20-30m ,it's very hard to get back under the cap in future years. Besides, they still need at least two starters and at least one reliever. That is going to cost more than 30m. They do have some payroll to clear, but I don't think there is any guarantee you can trade their excess guys for pitching. One way or another, they are going to clear payroll. As a general statement, I think that's probably true, but we don't have to deal in general statements ... we know exactly what the Sox situation is. They have, without a doubt, $24 million on the current books in Cespedes and Victorino that can come off without being replaced by other players. Whether that can happen by trade this year or by attrition after 2015 season is irrelevant to the analysis of their 2016 situation. Napoli is another $16 million that's coming off after next season, but he's complicated by the fact that you have to replace him somehow. Maybe that's taking Craig/Nava from backup roles this year into a platoon at first next year, which would be ideal from a payroll standpoint ... that would mean $40 million coming off that doesn't need to be replaced using any significant resources (you'd maybe have to add a player or two of depth, depending on what happens with JBJ/Cecchini/etc). The reason the Sox can do all of this and go significantly over the cap is because of Cherington's strategy so far of signing guys to short contracts at high AAV. It leads to precisely this situation, where they can go over in a pretty significant way in one year without drowning their future. Of course, this is leaving aside some roster issues ... they can't keep everyone this year even leaving aside payroll.
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Post by dirtywater on Nov 25, 2014 11:01:46 GMT -5
The most tax they have ever paid is 6.6m. That would mean they could go 34m over to pay that. However once you start going over by 20-30m ,it's very hard to get back under the cap in future years. Besides, they still need at least two starters and at least one reliever. That is going to cost more than 30m. They do have some payroll to clear, but I don't think there is any guarantee you can trade their excess guys for pitching. One way or another, they are going to clear payroll. As a general statement, I think that's probably true, but we don't have to deal in general statements ... we know exactly what the Sox situation is. They have, without a doubt, $24 million on the current books in Cespedes and Victorino that can come off without being replaced by other players. Whether that can happen by trade this year or by attrition after 2015 season is irrelevant to the analysis of their 2016 situation. Napoli is another $16 million that's coming off after next season, but he's complicated by the fact that you have to replace him somehow. Maybe that's taking Craig/Nava from backup roles this year into a platoon at first next year, which would be ideal from a payroll standpoint ... that would mean $40 million coming off that doesn't need to be replaced using any significant resources (you'd maybe have to add a player or two of depth, depending on what happens with JBJ/Cecchini/etc). The reason the Sox can do all of this and go significantly over the cap is because of Cherington's strategy so far of signing guys to short contracts at high AAV. It leads to precisely this situation, where they can go over in a pretty significant way in one year without drowning their future. Of course, this is leaving aside some roster issues ... they can't keep everyone this year even leaving aside payroll. Hanley Ramirez could easily be plugged into 1B.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Nov 25, 2014 11:47:30 GMT -5
Check out the fan graphs article that really gives hard reasoned facts to specifically project Hanley and the panda in the fens. www.fangraphs.com/blogs/hanley-panda-and-the-monster/While his line drive rate may steal some dingers, if he runs correctly 50 doubles may be possible. I think someone should climb in his head and suggest he could break records to get him sprinting but playing left (and aggressively throwing out guys at 2nd, which he should project to excel at) should teach him as well. Overall, I'm really happy with both signings but Hanley in particular could regain his top 10 mlb hitter form. This was the new inefficiency and the sox happily took advantage. The youth movement makes this investment financially possible and the timing was necessary. No impact free agents in the next few years come close and more and more guys are getting locked up with Stanton the obvious example.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 25, 2014 11:57:05 GMT -5
No impact free agents in the next few years come close and more and more guys are getting locked up with Stanton the obvious example. Plus, signing everyone in one offseason when you have a protected first rounded really minimizes the draft pick/slot money cost of FA signings.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 25, 2014 12:23:34 GMT -5
No impact free agents in the next few years come close and more and more guys are getting locked up with Stanton the obvious example. Plus, signing everyone in one offseason when you have a protected first rounded really minimizes the draft pick/slot money cost of FA signings. Plus, signing everyone in one offseason when they aren't competing with the Yankees or Dodgers to bid them up.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Nov 25, 2014 13:13:06 GMT -5
Plus, signing everyone in one offseason when you have a protected first rounded really minimizes the draft pick/slot money cost of FA signings. Plus, signing everyone in one offseason when they aren't competing with the Yankees or Dodgers to bid them up. Great point. I am truly shocked that the yanks had no interest in the panda and in Hanley. Had they pulled this off this board would be engulfed in whatifism. I'm glad the fo executed on a well thought out plan. My only q is if we can get an illiterative nickname for Hanley. Petey, papi, panda and if it is ok with Lester, the pizza?
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 25, 2014 13:17:55 GMT -5
Ramirez’s news conference is at 4 p.m.
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