rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 9:56:18 GMT -5
I don't trust Dombrowski, he's going to make things interesting but he has no track record of building a bullpen which is why they didn't win a WS and I feel he's going to make a trade or two that will REALLY piss people here off, like really badly.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 9:58:15 GMT -5
I'd drive Guerra to the airport to get Chapman...
The issue I have with Chapman is be one year of control. Hopefully, they could and would sign him afterwards. The other issue is the timing. If they trade for him and then can't get the top starter then it was useless. Does the trade make them even more desperate and cause an even greater over pay than he's already going to do?
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 13, 2015 10:13:04 GMT -5
I'd drive Guerra to the airport to get Chapman... The issue I have with Chapman is be one year of control. Hopefully, they could and would sign him afterwards. The other issue is the timing. If they trade for him and then can't get the top starter then it was useless. Does the trade make them even more desperate and cause an even greater over pay than he's already going to do? If CIN is willing to take Guerra instead of Margot, I'm all for it. I don't see it happening though. I would not say it is useless to get a closer, even if the starting pitching staff doesn't improve. The bullpen was a major problem last year. Having Chapman, Taz and Koji in the back end and Barnes as a 5th/6th inning guy will help the starters by not having them have to turn over a lineup more than twice on a regular basis.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 13, 2015 10:18:36 GMT -5
I agree. Someone like Kopech, Guerra, or Johnson plus a lesser piece seems appropriate to me. No one from the top five. Good luck in the FA market, then. Why is that such a bad thing? I'd rather overpay a FA reliever than give up a top 30 prospect to pay $10M for one year of a closer.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 13, 2015 10:58:33 GMT -5
I'd drive Guerra to the airport to get Chapman... The issue I have with Chapman is be one year of control. Hopefully, they could and would sign him afterwards. The other issue is the timing. If they trade for him and then can't get the top starter then it was useless. Does the trade make them even more desperate and cause an even greater over pay than he's already going to do? If CIN is willing to take Guerra instead of Margot, I'm all for it. I don't see it happening though. I would not say it is useless to get a closer, even if the starting pitching staff doesn't improve. The bullpen was a major problem last year. Having Chapman, Taz and Koji in the back end and Barnes as a 5th/6th inning guy will help the starters by not having them have to turn over a lineup more than twice on a regular basis. In addition to an improved BP, I believe the improved defense already in place (even with 1B still a ?) will help the entire staff.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 13, 2015 13:03:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade Guerra for 1 year of Chapman. As said before, at 1yr/$12M he doesn't have a ton of surplus value, and I don't put much value into the QO or the extend possibility. If he cost Guerra or more, I'd pass and take my chances elsewhere. We could make a run at him 365 days from now.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 13, 2015 13:13:32 GMT -5
All the talk of passing on Chapman this year and signing a top flight closer via FA next year surprises me. Most people on this thread can't fathom giving up a draft pick for a starter, I can only imagine the outrage of giving up a 1st for a guy who throws 75 innings.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 13:17:20 GMT -5
People are way too high on Guerra at this point. If he nets you Chapman, you jump all over that.
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 13, 2015 13:44:02 GMT -5
I'd rather overpay a FA reliever than give up a top 30 prospect to pay $10M for one year of a closer. So, the top FA relievers (and estimated contract terms) are: Darren O'Day (3/$21) Joakim Soria (3/$21) Tyler Clippard (2/$12) Mark Lowe (2/$11) Shawn Kelley (2/$11) Ryan Madson (2/$10) Tony Sipp (LH) (2/$10) Assume those are the prices and trade avenues for Papelbon/Storen, et al would be as expensive as obtaining Chapman. So, how do you plan to proceed?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 13, 2015 13:58:22 GMT -5
I'd rather overpay a FA reliever than give up a top 30 prospect to pay $10M for one year of a closer. So, the top FA relievers (and estimated contract terms) are: Darren O'Day (3/$21) Joakim Soria (3/$21) Tyler Clippard (2/$12) Mark Lowe (2/$11) Shawn Kelley (2/$11) Ryan Madson (2/$10) Tony Sipp (LH) (2/$10) Assume those are the prices and trade avenues for Papelbon/Storen, et al would be as expensive as obtaining Chapman. So, how do you plan to proceed? Sign one of them before I trade away a top 30 prospect. You'd rather give up Margot than just sign a reliever? Giving him up for one year of Chapman is extremely short sighted.
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 13, 2015 14:36:20 GMT -5
So, the top FA relievers (and estimated contract terms) are: Darren O'Day (3/$21) Joakim Soria (3/$21) Tyler Clippard (2/$12) Mark Lowe (2/$11) Shawn Kelley (2/$11) Ryan Madson (2/$10) Tony Sipp (LH) (2/$10) Assume those are the prices and trade avenues for Papelbon/Storen, et al would be as expensive as obtaining Chapman. So, how do you plan to proceed? Sign one of them before I trade away a top 30 prospect. You'd rather give up Margot than just sign a reliever? Giving him up for one year of Chapman is extremely short sighted. That's fair - you won't trade Margot except in a deal for a premier starter. I view Chapman as better than a typical reliever (read: O'Day and Soria) and he will bring back a 2017 first round pick if QO'ed and not re-signed (although I believe DD would sign him to a long-term contract before next season starts). O'Day is six years older than Chapman (33 vs. 27) and is more of the Koji-esque finesse/gimmick pitcher rather than the velocity-laden pitcher that DD covets. Soria's velocity ticked up last year but still throws in the low 90s.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 13, 2015 14:46:05 GMT -5
I don't trust Dombrowski, he's going to make things interesting but he has no track record of building a bullpen which is why they didn't win a WS and I feel he's going to make a trade or two that will REALLY piss people here off, like really badly. Do you learn from your mistakes? He built a team with ownership that went for it on big position players and starting pitching. In an interview he mentioned that the pen was a place they made a conscious decision to not prioritize money and prospects on given the fluctuating nature of relievers. He's not in that mindset currently. He stating they need power arms. I bet you're scared of the boogeyman too.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 13, 2015 15:54:00 GMT -5
I don't trust Dombrowski, he's going to make things interesting but he has no track record of building a bullpen which is why they didn't win a WS and I feel he's going to make a trade or two that will REALLY piss people here off, like really badly. Do you learn from your mistakes? He built a team with ownership that went for it on big position players and starting pitching. In an interview he mentioned that the pen was a place they made a conscious decision to not prioritize money and prospects on given the fluctuating nature of relievers. He's not in that mindset currently. He stating they need power arms. I bet you're scared of the boogeyman too. pokey......pokey......you are being naughty. We are all scared of the boogeyman.....including you. I believe Dombrowski (god that is long name) will do us right. I just want him to understand "Rome was not built in a day" or a year. You don't have to listen to all of our ramblings just be smart. Chapman is a dominant pitcher, but I'd be careful giving up too much for him unless we can extend the guy. I guess I'd be OK with Guerra for him, but not Margot. And for that reason, the Reds probably say no. I'm personally OK with that. Margot is worth more than 65 innings of dominance in 2016. Now if we got that dominance for 2017 and 2018, I'd think twice.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 16:17:39 GMT -5
I don't trust Dombrowski, he's going to make things interesting but he has no track record of building a bullpen which is why they didn't win a WS and I feel he's going to make a trade or two that will REALLY piss people here off, like really badly. Do you learn from your mistakes? He built a team with ownership that went for it on big position players and starting pitching. In an interview he mentioned that the pen was a place they made a conscious decision to not prioritize money and prospects on given the fluctuating nature of relievers. He's not in that mindset currently. He stating they need power arms. I bet you're scared of the boogeyman too. Don't be a jack***. I'll trust him when he proves to know how to do something he has thus far shown an inability to. Oh good he admitted he had bad bullpens and that he can't do that. Let's see him execute it. I hopeNow dies because i value a bullpen more than probably anyone else here.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 16:27:34 GMT -5
Chapman is the best closer in my opinion... there are a few others, I know, but Chapman is #1 in my mind. If we get him and put Uehara in the 8th that significantly improves the pen and in turn out team. One move. That said, I think we would wants an extension in place before the deal is finalized... at least an understanding of an agreement. Margot straight up? Yes. Margot is NOT a sure thing at all.... do you remember the three guys we traded for Adrian Gonzalez???
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Post by jmei on Nov 13, 2015 16:34:36 GMT -5
do you remember the three guys we traded for Adrian Gonzalez??? Yeah, I remember that guy who finished in the top 10 in NL MVP voting last year and should finish top 5 this year.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 13, 2015 18:08:47 GMT -5
Sign one of them before I trade away a top 30 prospect. You'd rather give up Margot than just sign a reliever? Giving him up for one year of Chapman is extremely short sighted. That's fair - you won't trade Margot except in a deal for a premier starter. I view Chapman as better than a typical reliever (read: O'Day and Soria) and he will bring back a 2017 first round pick if QO'ed and not re-signed (although I believe DD would sign him to a long-term contract before next season starts). O'Day is six years older than Chapman (33 vs. 27) and is more of the Koji-esque finesse/gimmick pitcher rather than the velocity-laden pitcher that DD covets. Soria's velocity ticked up last year but still throws in the low 90s. Agreed there
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 13, 2015 19:33:30 GMT -5
Do you learn from your mistakes? He built a team with ownership that went for it on big position players and starting pitching. In an interview he mentioned that the pen was a place they made a conscious decision to not prioritize money and prospects on given the fluctuating nature of relievers. He's not in that mindset currently. He stating they need power arms. I bet you're scared of the boogeyman too. Oh good he admitted he had bad bullpens and that he can't do that. Reading comprehension is not your strong point lol. So far of 3 concrete rumors we've had, 2 of them have been DD talking to Soria and Chapman. Sounds like he's on the right track.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Nov 13, 2015 19:40:08 GMT -5
Oh good he admitted he had bad bullpens and that he can't do that. Reading comprehension is not your strong point lol. So far of 3 concrete rumors we've had, 2 of them have been DD talking to Soria and Chapman. Sounds like he's on the right track. Knock it off. You're brand new to the board and almost every post you make is hostile. Stop it or your run on this board will be short.
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rjp313jr
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 13, 2015 19:48:40 GMT -5
Sox got Kimbrel not getting chapman
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 13, 2015 19:49:40 GMT -5
Sox got Kimbrel not getting chapman And gave up Margot AND Guerra.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 21:47:54 GMT -5
do you remember the three guys we traded for Adrian Gonzalez??? Yeah, I remember that guy who finished in the top 10 in NL MVP voting last year and should finish top 5 this year.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 13, 2015 21:54:37 GMT -5
Yeah... Rizzo, but the other two not so much... Kelly was supposed to be a top pitcher... at least he made it to the bigs, that Center Fielder didn't even make it. They were all three top 6-7 prospects. Prospects are just not a sure thing. Margot may or may not be good... same w Guerra n Logan.
We got Kimbrel... gave up a lot, but Kimbrel is one of the best closers... those four prospects? Maybe one pans out... more maybe, who knows. I'm fine with the deal.
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Post by jmei on Nov 13, 2015 23:20:43 GMT -5
Of course prospects aren't a sure thing. If they were, you wouldn't be trading them. But if even one of them turns out, you get six cheap years of them. That's hugely valuable.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 14, 2015 7:52:28 GMT -5
Prospects are 100% valuable, which is why teams are willing to take them for good players.... the team sending them and getting them are taking a chance. I'm not saying we should give up all our young talent, but in order to get a top starter, closer or good hitter we need to give up good prospects. Sometimes teams hold them too long and then get nothing at all for them. Ranaudo, Webster, DeLaRosa, Cecchini, Middlebrooks, Brentz, Lavarnway,Kalish, Lars Anderson, etc. The guys we sent packing may or may not pan out... we know the track record of Kimbrel. We traded Rizzo and two other very good prospects (Kelly and Fuentes) for Gonzalez. Rizzo panned out, the other two not so much. At the time we would all make that trade again. Gonzalez was a great hitter in his prime that can play good 1B too. No one knew Rizzo would turn into what he is now. Kelly was our #1 prospect at the time, Rizzo was #3. We included Rizzo because we were getting one of MLB's best 1B in their prime. That is how trades work out.
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