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Evaluating Ben Cherington 2014-15
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 9, 2014 13:39:23 GMT -5
If we're being stingy now hopefully that bodes well for the likes of mookie, xander and swihart. I'm not sure what we can decipher about their intentions. I don't think we can be confident that Ben Cherington will make the right moves. This a GM that's coming off a bungled Lester Negotiation, a last place finish, aided by massive miscalculation of top prospects Middlebrooks and Bradley, a terrible Lackey and Lester trade, the disaster that was AJ perzinski, about 3 bad deals in the closer market (Bailey, melancon and mujica) has collected 7 starting outfielders , and still sitting on them all. He won a World Series , I got it. With 90% theo players and sitting on theos stacked farm system, not helped by a blown top ten bust in BC' s big pick in Ball. I guess I'm questioning whether I want this guy to make any moves, bc I think he might hurt Red Sox long term. I gotta say giving $20 million a year to Pablo Sandoval doesn't make me feel he's improved .
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,406
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Post by ianrs on Dec 9, 2014 13:51:22 GMT -5
I'm not sure what we can decipher about their intentions. I don't think we can be confident that Ben Cherington will make the right moves. This a GM that's coming off a bungled Lester Negotiation, a last place finish, aided by massive miscalculation of top prospects Middlebrooks and Bradley, a terrible Lackey and Lester trade, the disaster that was AJ perzinski, about 3 bad deals in the closer market (Bailey, melancon and mujica) has collected 7 starting outfielders , and still sitting on them all. He won a World Series , I got it. With 90% theo players and sitting on theos stacked farm system, not helped by a blown top ten bust in BC' s big pick in Ball. I guess I'm questioning whether I want this guy to make any moves, bc I think he might hurt Red Sox long term. I gotta say giving $20 million a year to Pablo Sandoval doesn't make me feel he's improved . Funny how you don't mention... Signing Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, and Koji Uehara. The miracle Dodgers trade to create tons of financial flexibility. Resurrecting Andrew Miller. Drafting Blake Swihart, Mookie Betts, Henry Owens, Matt Barnes, JBJ, and Brian Johnson. Not to mention he oversaw drafts prior to being a GM that brought in Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, and Justin Masterson. Sure, BC has had some bad decisions. All GM's do, he's not perfect. But I would argue that he's also put the franchise in a very positive position overall. A World Series is no small feat. That said, he is unpredictable, which I think is a good thing - so you're right in saying that we really can't decipher his intentions.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 9, 2014 13:57:43 GMT -5
Wait Ball is a busted pick? I missed that memo.
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Post by kman22 on Dec 9, 2014 14:05:19 GMT -5
Wait Ball is a busted pick? I missed that memo. Yeah, obviously. I mean what kind of top 10 pick take more than a year and a half to make it to the majors? Also, pass on Bastardo. The good news is that Philly is interested in Coyle.
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 9, 2014 14:21:03 GMT -5
Funny how you don't mention... Drafting Blake Swihart, Mookie Betts, Henry Owens, Matt Barnes, JBJ, and Brian Johnson. Those guys came from Theo's last draft (2011). It's too early to say much about Ben's drafts for the most part, though Johnson looks like a good one and I think Marrero will have a long career somewhere.
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 9, 2014 14:23:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure what we can decipher about their intentions. I don't think we can be confident that Ben Cherington will make the right moves. This a GM that's coming off a bungled Lester Negotiation, a last place finish, aided by massive miscalculation of top prospects Middlebrooks and Bradley, a terrible Lackey and Lester trade, the disaster that was AJ perzinski, about 3 bad deals in the closer market (Bailey, melancon and mujica) has collected 7 starting outfielders , and still sitting on them all. He won a World Series , I got it. With 90% theo players and sitting on theos stacked farm system, not helped by a blown top ten bust in BC' s big pick in Ball. I guess I'm questioning whether I want this guy to make any moves, bc I think he might hurt Red Sox long term. I gotta say giving $20 million a year to Pablo Sandoval doesn't make me feel he's improved . Funny how you don't mention... Signing Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, and Koji Uehara. The miracle Dodgers trade to create tons of financial flexibility. Resurrecting Andrew Miller. Drafting Blake Swihart, Mookie Betts, Henry Owens, Matt Barnes, JBJ, and Brian Johnson. Not to mention he oversaw drafts prior to being a GM that brought in Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, and Justin Masterson. Sure, BC has had some bad decisions. All GM's do, he's not perfect. But I would argue that he's also put the franchise in a very positive position overall. A World Series is no small feat. That said, he is unpredictable, which I think is a good thing - so you're right in saying that we really can't decipher his intentions. 1. Koji - good move but after 2. Melancon- disaster 3. Bailey- disaster 4. Mujica-disaster 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster 7. Napoli- great move 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. 13-aj perzinski -disaster 14-rusney Castillo- unknown 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster 16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move That is a spotty record, at best
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,406
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Post by ianrs on Dec 9, 2014 14:26:31 GMT -5
It's too early to say much about Ben's drafts for the most part, though Johnson looks like a good one and I think Marrero will have a long career somewhere. Hm, for some reason the Soxprospects draft history lists Cherington as the GM for that draft. My mistake, and thanks for the correction. You're right about it being largely too early. Anyway, this offseason should give us more insight into how well BC handles surplus assets while needing to fill some holes.
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 9, 2014 14:28:18 GMT -5
8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! I don't know about that. TBD
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Post by stevedillard on Dec 9, 2014 14:28:39 GMT -5
Wait Ball is a busted pick? I missed that memo. Yeah, obviously. I mean what kind of top 10 pick take more than a year and a half to make it to the majors? Sigh. I'm not really sure that the 2013 draft, featuring the #7 pick on player who didn't make the league's top 20 prospects, while 5 of the kids draft right after him are in BA's top 100 list, and a third rounder who has twice been suspended, will be a highlight for BC. 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! I don't know about that. TBD Add in the Cespedes (rather than a prospect) for Lester deal, and we're developing quite a track record of "sure it looks bad now, but maybe we can save it."
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 9, 2014 14:28:41 GMT -5
Wait Ball is a busted pick? I missed that memo. Yeah, obviously. I mean what kind of top 10 pick take more than a year and a half to make it to the majors? Also, pass on Bastardo. The good news is that Philly is interested in Coyle. Yes it's a bust. Ball not being in the majors is not the disaster. It's getting hammered in low A ball, and the reports of scouts read on this site of average stuff I don't think they send memo's btw
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Post by kman22 on Dec 9, 2014 14:39:39 GMT -5
Funny how you don't mention... Signing Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, and Koji Uehara. The miracle Dodgers trade to create tons of financial flexibility. Resurrecting Andrew Miller. Drafting Blake Swihart, Mookie Betts, Henry Owens, Matt Barnes, JBJ, and Brian Johnson. Not to mention he oversaw drafts prior to being a GM that brought in Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, and Justin Masterson. Sure, BC has had some bad decisions. All GM's do, he's not perfect. But I would argue that he's also put the franchise in a very positive position overall. A World Series is no small feat. That said, he is unpredictable, which I think is a good thing - so you're right in saying that we really can't decipher his intentions. 1. Koji - good move but after 2. Melancon- disaster 3. Bailey- disaster 4. Mujica-disaster 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster 7. Napoli- great move 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. 13-aj perzinski -disaster 14-rusney Castillo- unknown 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move That is a spotty record, at best You missed out on the early 90's. I'm sorry.
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 9, 2014 14:49:32 GMT -5
1. Koji - good move but after 2. Melancon- disaster 3. Bailey- disaster 4. Mujica-disaster 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster 7. Napoli- great move 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. 13-aj perzinski -disaster 14-rusney Castillo- unknown 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move That is a spotty record, at best You missed out on the early 90's. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I get your point. The Red Sox didn't draft that high in the early 90's. Trey Ball is a bad pick. That's undeniable at this point. Maybe a miracle will happen. The list of moves is based on what the players have done .
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Post by kman22 on Dec 9, 2014 14:54:44 GMT -5
You missed out on the early 90's. I'm sorry. I'm not sure I get your point. The Red Sox didn't draft that high in the early 90's. Trey Ball is a bad pick. That's undeniable at this point. Maybe a miracle will happen. The list of moves is based on what the players have done . I think Trot Nixon might beg to differ.
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Post by mvbigtuna on Dec 9, 2014 15:06:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure I get your point. The Red Sox didn't draft that high in the early 90's. Trey Ball is a bad pick. That's undeniable at this point. Maybe a miracle will happen. The list of moves is based on what the players have done . I think Trot Nixon might beg to differ. Trot Nixon wasn't higher. He was the 7th pick. Same as Ball. What's your point? Nixon is a good pick !, I agree if that's it. I'm pretty sure Cherington didn't select him. He was in high school.
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Post by taftreign on Dec 9, 2014 15:14:13 GMT -5
1. Koji - good move but after 2. Melancon- disaster 3. Bailey- disaster 4. Mujica-disaster 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster 7. Napoli- great move 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. 13-aj perzinski -disaster 14-rusney Castillo- unknown 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster 16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move That is a spotty record, at best Glad I don't go through life with this level of pessimism! Edit: Sorry pedro, just read your comment.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 9, 2014 15:18:34 GMT -5
Funny how you don't mention... Signing Mike Napoli, Shane Victorino, and Koji Uehara. The miracle Dodgers trade to create tons of financial flexibility. Resurrecting Andrew Miller. Drafting Blake Swihart, Mookie Betts, Henry Owens, Matt Barnes, JBJ, and Brian Johnson. Not to mention he oversaw drafts prior to being a GM that brought in Anthony Rizzo, Josh Reddick, and Justin Masterson. Sure, BC has had some bad decisions. All GM's do, he's not perfect. But I would argue that he's also put the franchise in a very positive position overall. A World Series is no small feat. That said, he is unpredictable, which I think is a good thing - so you're right in saying that we really can't decipher his intentions. 1. Koji - good move but after 2. Melancon- disaster 3. Bailey- disaster 4. Mujica-disaster 5. Allen Webster for Gonzalez and Crawford and Beckett is not a good trade. Is meh at best. The Dodgers love it, we gave Henry extra profit. 6. Victorino- one good season for $26 million is tolerable at best. 1 season for $39 million is a disaster 7. Napoli- great move 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- disaster monumental!!! 9. Lester Negotiation- disaster 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- not a disaster yet, but looking like it. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc -disaster 12. Btw he gets no credit for the farm . He drafted none of those players you mentioned, nor was he the director of PD at the time. He was last in charge of the farm/draft in 2005. He was asst GM vp from 2005 I believe till he was promoted.. 13-aj perzinski -disaster 14-rusney Castillo- unknown 15-Ball- highest draft pick in my lifetime and it is near a Brien Taylor disaster 16. Sandoval . Unknown but the money doesn't match up with the production. $20 million for Sandoval is good but it's not good for Ellsbury? If a 750 ops gets you $20 mill, wouldn't it for a guy who is in shape and hits lead off and steals 60 bases, in your town,? Btw I'm not advocating Ellsbury, just there seems to be mixed messages in their actions. 17. Ramirez. Who knows. $22 million if he is healthy and behaves. Big if. 18. Ortiz- resigning him was a great move That is a spotty record, at best 19. Took a nightmare of a payroll situation that was left for him and turned it into a World Series championship in a little over a year while holding onto the prospects that had us in the top 5 of baseball along with an incredibly flexible payroll situation moving forward.
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Post by dmaineah on Dec 9, 2014 15:34:06 GMT -5
19. Took a nightmare of a payroll situation that was left for him and turned it into a World Series championship in a little over a year while holding onto the prospects that had us in the top 5 of baseball along with an incredibly flexible payroll situation moving forward.I'd say that was more a doing by Larry Lucchino
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Dec 9, 2014 15:37:43 GMT -5
Wow, the pessimism is just ridiculous. 1. Koji - We got the best closer in the MLB in 2013 as an after thought. Without him do we win the Series in 13? 2. Melancon- Has pitched well everywhere but Boston, clearly Cherington's fault 3. Bailey- injured, agree this wasn't great, but it's not like Reddick is an upgrade in RF 4. Mujica- a 1.78 ERA post All Star break isn't good enough for you to think he may continue the success in 2015? 5. If we don't make the Punto trade, we don't win a World Series in 2013. Simple as that. 6. Victorino- Big contributor to 2013 World Series, and injured a lot since. See what 2015 brings. 7. Napoli- great move (agreed!) 8. Lackey for Craig kelly- 2015 will decide whether this trade was a win or not. No one has any idea what any of these guys will produce next season 9. Lester Negotiation- How does a pitcher coming off 1.5 pretty good years after a DISASTROUS 2012 equal a max contract pitcher in the Spring of 2014? 10. Lester trade for Cespedes- If we re-sign Lester, Cherington is a genius. Otherwise jury is out until we see what we get for Cespedes in a trade. 11. Counting on Bradley middlebrooks etc - Gambled and lost, agree this was a miss by Cherington and scouting dept 12. He gets credit for Marrero, Johnson, Devers, Rodriguez and Chavis. That's 5 of your top 10 prospects. 13-aj perzinski - Agreed a disaster. They should have signed one of those other All Star catchers that took 1 year deals? 14-rusney Castillo- unknown (But after 1 season Trey Ball is a known disaster?) 15-Ball- Did you miss all those scouting reports that came out at the end of the year with all the improvements he made? Must have missed those. I agree he doesn't look like a transcendent future Ace, but give the kid til AA to decide his career, jeez. 16. Sandoval . I hated this signing, I think it was an overpay. Jury is out until at least a couple years from now. 17. Ramirez. Jury is out like Sandoval 18. Ortiz- When will this guy finally decline? Just keep rolling the dice I guess...
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 9, 2014 15:46:58 GMT -5
19. Took a nightmare of a payroll situation that was left for him and turned it into a World Series championship in a little over a year while holding onto the prospects that had us in the top 5 of baseball along with an incredibly flexible payroll situation moving forward.I'd say that was more a doing by Larry Lucchino No, he did all the bad stuff and Cherington did all the good stuff. Or maybe it's the other way around. Or maybe it's stupid to separate them like that.
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Post by stevedillard on Dec 9, 2014 15:53:28 GMT -5
For all of the decision cited above, his biggest challenge will be getting a starting pitcher without impacting our long-term core (Bogarts, Betts, Swihart). Given the wild pivoting of philosophies by the battle between short term decision makers/NESN ratings pressures (presumably owners) and the longer term ones he has a lot of pressure. I think that the mid-year nadir and the failure of rookies Bogarts/JBJ/WMB led them to value short term more (Cespedes, Craig), and spending a lot on Castillo. Hopefully Ramirez/Sandoval scratched that itch enough so that the "win now" crowd has been placated and the core guys are not sacrificed.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 9, 2014 16:01:02 GMT -5
For all of the decision cited above, his biggest challenge will be getting a starting pitcher without impacting our long-term core (Bogarts, Betts, Swihart). Given the wild pivoting of philosophies by the battle between short term decision makers/NESN ratings pressures (presumably owners) and the longer term ones he has a lot of pressure. I think that the mid-year nadir and the failure of rookies Bogarts/JBJ/WMB led them to value short term more (Cespedes, Craig), and spending a lot on Castillo. Hopefully Ramirez/Sandoval scratched that itch enough so that the "win now" crowd has been placated and the core guys are not sacrificed. The problem they have is none of their young pitchers seem like front of the rotation guys. So short or long term they need pitching.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Dec 9, 2014 16:16:10 GMT -5
For all of the decision cited above, his biggest challenge will be getting a starting pitcher without impacting our long-term core (Bogarts, Betts, Swihart). Given the wild pivoting of philosophies by the battle between short term decision makers/NESN ratings pressures (presumably owners) and the longer term ones he has a lot of pressure. I think that the mid-year nadir and the failure of rookies Bogarts/JBJ/WMB led them to value short term more (Cespedes, Craig), and spending a lot on Castillo. Hopefully Ramirez/Sandoval scratched that itch enough so that the "win now" crowd has been placated and the core guys are not sacrificed. The problem they have is none of their young pitchers seem like front of the rotation guys. So short or long term they need pitching. But then again neither did Cliff Lee or Corey Kluber or Garret Richardson. I think the Red Sox pitching prospects collectively are better than a lot of people think. Red Sox prospects tend to be over-hyped AND underrated. Hype brings additional scrutiny.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 9, 2014 16:17:30 GMT -5
I'd say that was more a doing by Larry Lucchino No, he did all the bad stuff and Cherington did all the good stuff. Or maybe it's the other way around. Or maybe it's stupid to separate them like that.Yes! It's like blaming/crediting BC with the drafts ... really, how much of that is him, and how much is Sawdaye? It's fine to personalize "Red Sox Baseball Operations" in the person of Ben Cherington - in the end, the buck stops with him - but let's be clear that's what we're doing. "He" inherited a team with a very high payroll, high expectations, but a deeply flawed roster. The farm system had a long dry period, leaving the team completely bereft of young players entering into their prime at a time when the free agent market was producing fewer and fewer of those. He made a very bad decision in Bobby Valentine (yeah, yeah, maybe he wanted someone else, but remember, he's getting credit/blame for everything here), and that cost the team. He pulled off a great trade, packing a big asset in Gonzalez with a couple of albatrosses in Beckett and Crawford to clear some space, and picked up some promising pitchers in the mix. Then, just about every decision he made in the winter of 2012-2013 came up roses ... extraordinary, rarely-to-be-repeated. It was like pitching a perfect game. But even mediocre pitchers can pitch a perfect game once in a while ... He had one glorious blaze of success and some mixed results this past year, obviously. AJ Pierzinski looked like a bad idea from the get-go, and the Drew signing was a total panic move that was somewhere between a mistake and a disaster. His bullpen construction has actually been pretty good consistently (as much as people complain about individual moves), but he clearly underestimated the transition for JBJ and Bogaerts and put too much faith in WMB. But he also was crushed by a rash of injuries and underperformance by guys who should've been the core the team (Victorino, Pedroia, Napoli, Buchholz, etc) But that's almost all in the volatile side of the equation, free agent signings and other things that are inherently risky. On the fundamentals, Cherington has the Sox positioned really, really well. They have a ton of payroll flexibility because of his smart management. They have a young core of players who look like possible All-Starts in Bogaerts, Betts, and even possibly Swihart, if he keeps developing next year. They have a stocked farm system because he has developed a set of players very well and has added to it with some good draft picks and international signings, with young, high upside guys like Margot, Devers, Chavis, etc. To me, he looks like a guy who can implement a long-term plan really, really well. His ability to maximize the opportunities that plan creates is still TBD. He was dealing with a relatively poor hand the first couple of years, so it's tough to know.
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 9, 2014 16:21:01 GMT -5
It's funny to me how people continue to declare Ball a bust based on his terrible first half of '14 rather than seeing his very good second half as cause for optimism going forward. I get it if you still aren't thrilled about the pick, but it seems to me he's at least worthy of "wait and see" status.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Dec 9, 2014 19:40:38 GMT -5
The worst ever.
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