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Post by MLBDreams on Dec 15, 2014 13:23:45 GMT -5
#1-They're happy with Mr. 100 RBI Cespedes & attempt to offer contract extension beyond 2015. He said no & want to test FA market. We knew that he has to GO.
#2- Detroit didn't lock up Rick Porcello either with 1 yr left of service time. They needed OF help after Torii Hunter depart. We gave them 3 players to let Rick GO.
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Post by soxfan06 on Dec 15, 2014 13:43:10 GMT -5
#1-They're happy with Mr. 100 RBI Cespedes & attempt to offer contract extension beyond 2015. He said no & want to test FA market. We knew that he has to GO. #2- Detroit didn't lock up Rick Porcello either with 1 yr left of service time. They needed OF help after Torii Hunter depart. We gave them 3 players to let Rick GO. What does this have to do with anything? Two teams traded from positions of strength to address a weakness, yes we know that. How does that affect whether they should extend Porcello?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 15, 2014 14:17:31 GMT -5
#1-They're happy with Mr. 100 RBI Cespedes & attempt to offer contract extension beyond 2015. He said no & want to test FA market. We knew that he has to GO. #2- Detroit didn't lock up Rick Porcello either with 1 yr left of service time. They needed OF help after Torii Hunter depart. We gave them 3 players to let Rick GO. Detroit is stupid. I really don't care what they think. I love the trade and want to extend Porcello.
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Post by ramireja on Dec 18, 2014 13:28:58 GMT -5
Nice summary of some factors we've discussed so far that may benefit our new pitchers. This article mentions all three SP acquisitions but focuses on Porcello with the prediction that he may benefit the most from park effects, defense (+ shifting) and framing effects.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 18, 2014 13:44:56 GMT -5
#1-They're happy with Mr. 100 RBI Cespedes & attempt to offer contract extension beyond 2015. He said no & want to test FA market. We knew that he has to GO. #2- Detroit didn't lock up Rick Porcello either with 1 yr left of service time. They needed OF help after Torii Hunter depart. We gave them 3 players to let Rick GO. Detroit is stupid. I really don't care what they think. I love the trade and want to extend Porcello. I mean, Dombrowski is one of the most respected GMs in the game with a long track record of success but sure, they're "stupid".
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 18, 2014 14:26:18 GMT -5
Detroit is stupid. I really don't care what they think. I love the trade and want to extend Porcello. I mean, Dombrowski is one of the most respected GMs in the game with a long track record of success but sure, they're "stupid". Maybe that was a little harsh, but absurd extensions for Cabrera and Verlander so far in advance of needing to give them, not even mentioning the Fielder contract, giving away Fister for nothing and never having a decent bullpen suggest that they don't deserve all of the praise. Maybe it's the owner pulling the strings, which is why I didn't single out the GM. I'm glad I'm not a Tigers fan.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 18, 2014 17:09:53 GMT -5
Dombrowski is digging himself a big hole, I think that's fair to say. If I was a Tigers fan I would be weary of a Scherzer deal. If he went south that's a nail in the coffin.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 18, 2014 17:17:16 GMT -5
Dombrowski is an excellent GM. He also made some boneheaded moves in the past (Doug Fister trade, Peralta's lack of qualifying offer, the Prince Fielder contract) so giving Porcello away wouldn't be a first.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 18, 2014 17:30:02 GMT -5
The Prince Fielder contract was bad but dumping it on the Rangers sure wasn't. Doug Fister notwithstanding, that guy doesn't lose many trades.
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Post by Don Caballero on Dec 18, 2014 17:51:21 GMT -5
The Prince Fielder contract was bad but dumping it on the Rangers sure wasn't. Doug Fister notwithstanding, that guy doesn't lose many trades. Yeah, you're right, dumping that contract was genius. The fact he did it on an also good GM in Jon Daniels makes it even nicer.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 18, 2014 18:17:12 GMT -5
I like the fit in Texas if Fielder can rebound, but even if he does he'll be an overpaid DH/bad glove 1B. AAV is insane there. At the time of the trade Kinsler looked to be trending downwards too (like Pedroia his glove is keeping him afloat). Fielder has almost no chance at all of being worth the remainder of his contract, but I guess Texas was willing to accept that with good power hitters being a rarity now. It was the right move for Detroit though.
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Post by jclmontana on Dec 18, 2014 18:37:28 GMT -5
Maybe the Cespedes trades and the Fielder trade is less about Dombrowski and more about the scarcity of power, the perceived need for players who can hit for power, and the price that Front Offices are willing to pay for it. I think the perception of this board as to the worth (not necessarily value, but what teams are willing to pay for it) of power in the game may be out of synch with reality.
Cespedes was not very well regarded on this board, but he seems to be valued pretty highly by the industry. Fielder brought back a good deal of value, although he was subsidized. Not trying to make a thesis out of this, just a thought.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 18, 2014 18:43:22 GMT -5
I'll take Hanley Ramirez and the attendant risk over Cespedes, and there's plenty of power in that bat. As a bonus, the team gets Porcello.
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Post by jclmontana on Dec 18, 2014 19:21:00 GMT -5
I'll take Hanley Ramirez and the attendant risk over Cespedes, and there's plenty of power in that bat. As a bonus, the team gets Porcello. I absolutely agree. Saying the Cespedes may have been undervalued by some on the board doesn't mean that I prefer him, or that he should not have been traded. As to the Hanley signing, I think his contract supports the point of my post: power is getting paid, will get paid, and maybe we should stop being surprised that it gets paid (or that it brings back a lot in trade, like Cespedes did).
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 8:42:34 GMT -5
Cespedes isn't undervalued. He's still overrated. His OBP the last two seasons was .294 and .301. His defense is completely overrated because of how awful his routes are. If he had a wrist or shoulder injury that sapped his power at all, he'd be out of the majors. Don't see a long career for him.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Dec 19, 2014 9:20:27 GMT -5
Cespedes isn't undervalued. He's still overrated. His OBP the last two seasons was .294 and .301. His defense is completely overrated because of how awful his routes are. If he had a wrist or shoulder injury that sapped his power at all, he'd be out of the majors. Don't see a long career for him. Is there anyone in North America that doesn't know that Cespedes has a 300ish OBP (about .013 worse than league average in 2014) and that his arm is better than the rest of his defensive game? isn't repeating this like saying water is wet?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 9:24:05 GMT -5
Cespedes isn't undervalued. He's still overrated. His OBP the last two seasons was .294 and .301. His defense is completely overrated because of how awful his routes are. If he had a wrist or shoulder injury that sapped his power at all, he'd be out of the majors. Don't see a long career for him. Is there anyone in North America that doesn't know that Cespedes has a 300ish OBP (about .013 worse than league average in 2014) and that his arm is better than the rest of his defensive game? isn't repeating this like saying water is wet? Apparently everyone who still only cares about HR and RBI still either doesn't know it or care about it.
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Post by jclmontana on Dec 19, 2014 11:09:57 GMT -5
Is there anyone in North America that doesn't know that Cespedes has a 300ish OBP (about .013 worse than league average in 2014) and that his arm is better than the rest of his defensive game? isn't repeating this like saying water is wet? Apparently everyone who still only cares about HR and RBI still either doesn't know it or care about it. Yet he was the centerpiece of the trade that brought back Porcello. Hmm, wonder what that means? Either the Tigers grossly overvalued Cespedes, ( which I have not read anywhere besides message boards), Porcello is not very valuable, or the above sentiment is way off base. I am going with door number 3. You don't have to like Cespedes, but at least acknowledge reality: he was a valuable trade chip. And it is really not hard to understand why, his limited skillset is relatively rare and in demand, and that creates value, whether you agree with that valuation or not.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 11:18:48 GMT -5
Apparently everyone who still only cares about HR and RBI still either doesn't know it or care about it. Yet he was the centerpiece of the trade that brought back Porcello. Hmm, wonder what that means? Either the Tigers grossly overvalued Cespedes, ( which I have not read anywhere besides message boards), Porcello is not very valuable, or the above sentiment is way off base. I am going with door number 3. You don't have to like Cespedes, but at least acknowledge reality: he was a valuable trade chip. And it is really not hard to understand why, his limited skillset is relatively rare and in demand, and that creates value, whether you agree with that valuation or not. That's fine and all. I still would be completely opposed to signing him to an extension at just about any realistic price. There is no room for a drop in power in his game. I just don't like guys who won't take a walk so they can add a little value even when they're slumping.
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Post by okin15 on Dec 19, 2014 11:35:13 GMT -5
Apparently everyone who still only cares about HR and RBI still either doesn't know it or care about it. Yet he was the centerpiece of the trade that brought back Porcello. Hmm, wonder what that means? Either the Tigers grossly overvalued Cespedes, (which I have not read anywhere besides message boards), Porcello is not very valuable, or the above sentiment is way off base. I am going with door number 3. You don't have to like Cespedes, but at least acknowledge reality: he was a valuable trade chip. And it is really not hard to understand why, his limited skillset is relatively rare and in demand, and that creates value, whether you agree with that valuation or not. We're not arguing about whether people value Cespedes, but whether that value is warranted. Also, your options are over-agressive, and not mutually exclusive. The Tigers did overvalue Cespedes. Porcello is only moderately valuable, and the low OBP isn't as far out of line with the majors as we are used to, and so it's not as bad as jimed (and I) want to believe.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 19, 2014 13:34:51 GMT -5
His in game power isn't anything spectacular so the OBP makes him pretty disappointing offensively.
The thing I like about Cespedes is that he's a timely hitter. His WPA is in a league with a lot of hitters much better than he is.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 19, 2014 14:19:54 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on Dec 20, 2014 23:14:21 GMT -5
How many times was he paired with Ross in 2013, because pitch framing was, under those numbers, a much smaller portion of his success in 2013 than it was in 2014. I don't want to get on your case specifically, but if you have b-ref bookmarked, you can answer that question in less than 30 seconds. The answer is that Ross caught him 11 times and Saltalamacchia, a below-average pitch framer, caught him 22. Well he his bWAR was driven by great BWAR in OAK, which had, by the numbers I've seen below average pitch framing, so there seems to be a bit of a disconnect here.
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Post by jdb on Dec 26, 2014 11:34:04 GMT -5
ive been away for a while but I really like this trade and the thought of Porcello in Boston. Curious if they try to lock him up this offseason or let him put another year on his resume. Would a 5 year 85 million offer be fair now?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 26, 2014 22:14:31 GMT -5
ive been away for a while but I really like this trade and the thought of Porcello in Boston. Curious if they try to lock him up this offseason or let him put another year on his resume. Would a 5 year 85 million offer be fair now? Way too low. 6/110 to 120 more likely this offseason, much more next year if he stays healthy. He's only 26.
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