|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 19, 2014 12:16:25 GMT -5
This brings up a whole slew of possibilities. Example, would anyone top Vazquez and Kelly for Hamels. Would we prefer to keep Hannigan and work him into Swihart's backup or Vazquez and figure out who's on top. If we were willing to go with Vazquez, we should be willing to go with Hannigan and then come up with another backup.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 19, 2014 12:17:36 GMT -5
This brings up a whole slew of possibilities. Example, would anyone top Vazquez and Kelly for Hamels. Would we prefer to keep Hannigan and work him into Swihart's backup or Vazquez and figure out who's on top. If we were willing to go with Vazquez, we should be willing to go with Hannigan and then come up with another backup. Do you mean next offseason? If you trade one of Vazquez or Hanigan now then you need to go out and get another catcher.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 19, 2014 12:21:05 GMT -5
No, I mean this off season. If we trade one of them then we're basically in the same situation as 2 hours ago, needing a temporary backup catcher. We now have 2 catchers capable of being the starter. Vazquez would have the higher trade value though because he has 6 more years of team control as opposed to Hannigan's 3. Padres signed Ross, Fedex is available.
Would we be better off with Vazquez/Hannigan/Kelly or Hannigan/Fedex/Hamels ? Keeping in mind that Swihart is looming.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,438
|
Post by nomar on Dec 19, 2014 12:21:12 GMT -5
Two years plus a 3.75M option for 2017? Great deal.
|
|
|
Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 19, 2014 12:22:29 GMT -5
Eric's gonna happy about this one ...
This is a good, solid baseball trade for the Sox. Hanigan's got immediate value to the team as a better-than-backup catcher with the young catchers developing, Middlebrooks really doesn't. WMB has some small amount of future value still with the low chance he turns into something, but it's totally fine to trade that for some current value. I always kind of geek out on the smaller trades like this, just important to roster construction.
The mention about doing this trade last year is a good example of how guys' value can change; I think most people would've considered a WMB-Hanigan trade to be a terrible one for the Sox last year. But it would've been even better then than it is today ...
|
|
|
Post by draft37 on Dec 19, 2014 12:32:11 GMT -5
I love this deal for 2015. Hanigan is a decent upgrade over Ross with only a minimal cost increase. Veteran with experience to mentor Vazquez and Swihart. Middlebrooks was incredibly unlikely to have much of a role on the team in the next few years.
I will say though if Swihart makes a successful debut this season or makes himself known during Spring Training in 2016, how will they manage three MLB caliber C's (trade one, release Hanigan, keep Swihart in AAA for his third go around?)
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 12:33:09 GMT -5
No, I mean this off season. If we trade one of them then we're basically in the same situation as 2 hours ago, needing a temporary backup catcher. We now have 2 catchers capable of being the starter. Vazquez would have the higher trade value though because he has 6 more years of team control as opposed to Hannigan's 3. Padres signed Ross, Fedex is available. Would we be better off with Vazquez/Hannigan/Kelly or Hannigan/Fedex/Hamels ? Keeping in mind that Swihart is looming. If Cherington was willing to trade Vazquez (I doubt it) in a Hamels trade, the Phillies would throw in Ruiz to get it done. Hanigan means very little other than a much better backup than Butler or Ross. The difference between Vazquez and Hanigan is probably bigger than Hamels and someone else we can get. Just the fact that we only got a 34 year old backup catcher for WMB shows a little about how scarce catching is right now.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Dec 19, 2014 12:43:15 GMT -5
Great move. Great insurance for potential CVaz struggles.
Looks like Ben has found - or thinks he has found (and let's hope he as found) - the 2015 market inefficiency. Groundball pitchers and great defensive catchers. A new way to revamp this team's run prevention. It's almost like 2013, except we still have Napoli and Victorino (although I don't think anyone would have predicted how awesome Shane would be defensively and also how good Napoli turned out with the glove).
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 19, 2014 12:47:36 GMT -5
No, I mean this off season. If we trade one of them then we're basically in the same situation as 2 hours ago, needing a temporary backup catcher. We now have 2 catchers capable of being the starter. Vazquez would have the higher trade value though because he has 6 more years of team control as opposed to Hannigan's 3. Padres signed Ross, Fedex is available. Would we be better off with Vazquez/Hannigan/Kelly or Hannigan/Fedex/Hamels ? Keeping in mind that Swihart is looming. If Cherington was willing to trade Vazquez (I doubt it) in a Hamels trade, the Phillies would throw in Ruiz to get it done. Hanigan means very little other than a much better backup than Butler or Ross. The difference between Vazquez and Hanigan is probably bigger than Hamels and someone else we can get. Just the fact that we only got a 34 year old backup catcher for WMB shows a little about how scarce catching is right now. I think the difference between Hamels and Kelly is greater than the difference between Vazquez and Hannigan IF you believe Swihart will be ready no later than next spring and especially if you think Swihart will be ready by July. Hamels would still fit under the cap for 2016.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 12:51:29 GMT -5
If Cherington was willing to trade Vazquez (I doubt it) in a Hamels trade, the Phillies would throw in Ruiz to get it done. Hanigan means very little other than a much better backup than Butler or Ross. The difference between Vazquez and Hanigan is probably bigger than Hamels and someone else we can get. Just the fact that we only got a 34 year old backup catcher for WMB shows a little about how scarce catching is right now. I think the difference between Hamels and Kelly is greater than the difference between Vazquez and Hannigan IF you believe Swihart will be ready no later than next spring and especially if you think Swihart will be ready by July. Hamels would still fit under the cap for 2016. That's a lot to assume, and I wasn't comparing Hamels to Kelly. I was comparing Hamels to someone else we could get like Shields. And we should be looking at more than one year.
|
|
|
Post by ramireja on Dec 19, 2014 12:52:46 GMT -5
Just the fact that we only got a 34 year old backup catcher for WMB shows a little about how scarce catching is right now. Just out of curiosity what do you consider a fair trade for WMB in the current market? As someone else mentioned, he's slashed .213/.265/.364 over the last two years. I know as sox prospect fans we want to believe the upside is still there and attainable, but I mean if it were a failed prospect on another team, how would you view this? What would you think of a Justin Smoak for Hanigan trade?
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 13:03:53 GMT -5
Just the fact that we only got a 34 year old backup catcher for WMB shows a little about how scarce catching is right now. Just out of curiosity what do you consider a fair trade for WMB in the current market? As someone else mentioned, he's slashed .213/.265/.364 over the last two years. I know as sox prospect fans we want to believe the upside is still there and attainable, but I mean if it were a failed prospect on another team, how would you view this? What would you think of a Justin Smoak for Hanigan trade? I don't have any idea. This trade seems about right. But with the absence of 3B around the league, I wouldn't have been surprised if they were offered something a little more exciting from a team that wanted to buy a scratch off lottery ticket in hopes of filling 3rd. Smoak is a DH who can't hit, so he's worth less than WMB IMO. There are tons of those guys on waivers every year. Mike Carp is still a free agent too. Some team out there may think WMB's main issue is a lack of health. The broken wrist probably sapped his power and will likely return as he moves further from the injury. They might be right. I doubt it, but all it takes is one team to dream who can afford to dream.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 19, 2014 13:05:20 GMT -5
This trade rounds out your all former Sox lineup:
(1) Ellsbury - CF (2) Lowrie - 2B (3) Rizzo - 1B (4) Moss - DH (5) Middlebrooks - 3B (6) Reddick - RF
(7) Lavarnway - C (8) Kalish - LF (9) Iglesias - SS That would be a really awful team.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 19, 2014 13:05:47 GMT -5
I think the difference between Hamels and Kelly is greater than the difference between Vazquez and Hannigan IF you believe Swihart will be ready no later than next spring and especially if you think Swihart will be ready by July. Hamels would still fit under the cap for 2016. That's a lot to assume, and I wasn't comparing Hamels to Kelly. I was comparing Hamels to someone else we could get like Shields. And we should be looking at more than one year. I don't think banking on Swihart is a lot to assume and this is for more than 1 year. Hamels has a 4 year + 1 option year contract and is a better pitcher than Sheilds who is likely to get more money than Hamels. Sheilds is about to get a contract well into the age danger zone.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Dec 19, 2014 13:06:25 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity what do you consider a fair trade for WMB in the current market? As someone else mentioned, he's slashed .213/.265/.364 over the last two years. I know as sox prospect fans we want to believe the upside is still there and attainable, but I mean if it were a failed prospect on another team, how would you view this? What would you think of a Justin Smoak for Hanigan trade? I don't have any idea. This trade seems about right. But with the absence of 3B around the league, I wouldn't have been surprised if they were offered something a little more exciting from a team that wanted to buy a scratch off lottery ticket in hopes of filling 3rd. Smoak is a DH who can't hit, so he's worth less than WMB IMO. There are tons of those guys on waivers every year. Mike Carp is still a free agent too. Some team out there may think WMB's main issue is a lack of health. The broken wrist probably sapped his power and will likely return as he moves further from the injury. They might be right. I doubt it, but all it takes is one team to dream who can afford to dream. Something more exciting than exactly what they need?
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 13:08:22 GMT -5
That's a lot to assume, and I wasn't comparing Hamels to Kelly. I was comparing Hamels to someone else we could get like Shields. And we should be looking at more than one year. I don't think banking on Swihart is a lot to assume and this is for more than 1 year. Hamels has a 4 year + 1 option year contract and is a better pitcher than Sheilds who is likely to get more money than Hamels. I think the team is better with Vazquez and Shields this year than with Hanigan and Hamels this year. And then there's all the other prospects gone too.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 13:10:34 GMT -5
I don't have any idea. This trade seems about right. But with the absence of 3B around the league, I wouldn't have been surprised if they were offered something a little more exciting from a team that wanted to buy a scratch off lottery ticket in hopes of filling 3rd. Smoak is a DH who can't hit, so he's worth less than WMB IMO. There are tons of those guys on waivers every year. Mike Carp is still a free agent too. Some team out there may think WMB's main issue is a lack of health. The broken wrist probably sapped his power and will likely return as he moves further from the injury. They might be right. I doubt it, but all it takes is one team to dream who can afford to dream. Something more exciting than exactly what they need? I'm happy with the trade. You know what I mean.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 19, 2014 13:11:03 GMT -5
I don't think banking on Swihart is a lot to assume and this is for more than 1 year. Hamels has a 4 year + 1 option year contract and is a better pitcher than Sheilds who is likely to get more money than Hamels. I think the team is better with Vazquez and Shields this year than with Hanigan and Hamels this year. And then there's all the other prospects gone too. Sheilds is about to get a contract to age 37 or 38. No thank you.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Dec 19, 2014 13:14:05 GMT -5
I think the team is better with Vazquez and Shields this year than with Hanigan and Hamels this year. And then there's all the other prospects gone too. Sheilds is about to get a contract to age 37 or 38. No thank you. And you're giving up a very good starting catcher under control for Hamels under contract until age 36. How much are good starting catchers worth? See Martin and McCann.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,438
|
Post by nomar on Dec 19, 2014 13:17:04 GMT -5
This is OT to begin with but I agree giving up Vazquez for Hamels is a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by bsout2 on Dec 19, 2014 13:23:19 GMT -5
This trade rounds out your all former Sox lineup:
(1) Ellsbury - CF (2) Lowrie - 2B (3) Rizzo - 1B (4) Moss - DH (5) Middlebrooks - 3B (6) Reddick - RF
(7) Lavarnway - C (8) Kalish - LF (9) Iglesias - SS That would be a really awful team. Don't forget the rotation Lester Sanchez Doubront Kelly Pimentel
|
|
|
Post by mgoetze on Dec 19, 2014 13:25:45 GMT -5
Looks like Ben has found - or thinks he has found (and let's hope he as found) - the 2015 market inefficiency. Groundball pitchers and great defensive catchers. Yeah, it's just too bad he only realized this after trading away Jose Iglesias. Anyway, excellent move. Everyone who thought moving WMB to another position was ever a good idea is deluded - he is an above average defender there and moving him anywhere else would lose so much value you'd have to put him on waivers immediately because, sorry, he's not going to be an above-average hitter. The other people who are deluded are those who think Hanigan is going to have any effect on the Vazquez/Swihart dynamic. As before, the only player standing in the way of Swihart getting the starting job is Vazquez, who has superstar potential himself. Hanigan is a good backup to average starter. He is eminently tradable and not going to get in anyone's way.
|
|
|
Post by mredsox89 on Dec 19, 2014 13:27:54 GMT -5
With no context of roster construction for the Sox, then sure, I'd think maybe something a bit more for Middlebrooks would be realistic. But given the way their current roster/system is set, a better than normal backup catcher is one of the only remaining holes, and thus I'm all for this move. Helps bridge the Vazquez/Swihart gap if either struggle, and it doesn't cost them much, as WMB has no place on the team. He's unlikely to be a good enough hitter to ever man 1B on a plus team, and Sandoval isn't moving off third for a few years at minimum. Solid back end move from BC that won't get a ton of publicity but could be a decently important move
|
|
|
Post by stevedillard on Dec 19, 2014 13:29:23 GMT -5
Just clearing room in Pawtucket for Moncada
(ok, probably just Cecchini)
|
|
|
Post by GyIantosca on Dec 19, 2014 13:31:12 GMT -5
I guess that's that for Butler. Or the Sox feel he needs more seasoning in AAA.
I really thought it was Vasquez show and Butler like 40 games. Vasquez isn't a old veteran that kid can play a lot of games. I don't know how that sits with this guy there gonna get from The Padres.
|
|