brendan98
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Salty
Nov 9, 2012 12:01:57 GMT -5
Post by brendan98 on Nov 9, 2012 12:01:57 GMT -5
I'd really like to know what everyone thinks about this guy, he had a few big HR's this past year, and I was actually a little optimistic about him during the 1st half, but he fell off a cliff in the summer months, and his .288 OBP for the season (for the 2nd year in a row, BTW) is really hard to swallow. IMO, he is an average to below average defensive catcher, in taking all aspects under consideration (blocking, throwing, calling a game). As far as I am concerned, the only reason Salty has any value at all is that he has good power at an offensively deficient position.
If the Sox go with Salty at C in 2013, I think we know pretty well what we will get, and I would rather see the Sox give Lavarnway a full season of starts to see if he can be better.
I guess another question I have is, due to the lack of talent at the C position, does Salty have trade value? I'd rather have a strong defensive C, with minimal offense, than a weaker defensive C, with mid 20 HR power but abysmal on base skills.
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Salty
Nov 9, 2012 14:36:52 GMT -5
Post by sibbysisti on Nov 9, 2012 14:36:52 GMT -5
His puny BA and horrible OBP certainly don't guarantee him a full time job for the Sox in 2013. But his power is undeniable. I don't know whether that carries the day for him.
Checked his D stats. He has a FPCT of .991 (2012) which ranks him ahead of Lavarnway and Carlos Santana and tied with Weiters. He had seven errors in 104 games, compared to 10 for Weiters (134G) and 7 for Santana. Six PB as opposed to Santana 10.
He ranks low in throwing out potential base stealers. He probably be used better as a LH platoon with Lavarnway or Napoli.
As for calling a game, I didn't read about any complaints from pitchers or adverse statements from the staff.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 9, 2012 16:29:40 GMT -5
His rare combo of power and catching nets him value to some team. He is an above average offensive player at a premium position. I think his value is high right now and is one of the pieces I would not mind moving.
If we are to get back to the philosophy of grinding down pitchers and money ball OBP emphasis... then Salty has no more value to this team than Doug M. He has more value in a trade than as a backup catcher.
The ERA of pitchers with Shop behind the plate was almost a full run less than with Salty. If there is a starter I would not mind seeing in a trade its Willy Mo Salty.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 10:14:36 GMT -5
I love the signing of Ross as our backup catcher. I was just writing on this yesterday while thinking how the sox could fill holes without impacting the MLB team.
With one year left on Salty's deal I could see the sox move him as the centerpiece of a deal. It is a clear sign the Sox see the failure of the entire rotation as partly to blame on the catcher. I pointed out yesterday that our rotation was a full ERA point better with Shop behind the plate.
Lets consider that neither Lava nor Salty are good defensive catchers. This means that Lava has nobody to mentor him in how to excel at the major league level. I can see the signing of Tek by the front office as a way to partially help this problem... but the best way is to play day to day with a quality catcher. Salty already had that opportunity with Tek and he still is poor defensively albeit better than he used to be.
We have many more years of control at a drastically lower price in Lava and he fits the classic red sox mold of an on base type of hitter with some pop. His first year wasn't great but neither are most players first years in the bigs. This gives insurance while Lava either grows or fails.
To me Salty had no more value to this team than a backup catcher... this move solidifies my presumptions. His best value to the team is in a trade to net us a quality, young cost controlled building block to move towards the future. In a league with pathetic hitting at catcher... his power sets him near the top.
I would not be shocked to see Salty moved for a middle of the order bat... most likely one that plays right field. I dont think he has enough value to net a quality starter... but he could take down the demands from one of the killer Bs to somebody like Cechinni who will be blocked in the long run anyways.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 10:27:21 GMT -5
Post by James Dunne on Nov 10, 2012 10:27:21 GMT -5
Other teams noticed that Salty had a .288 OBP too. Nobody is giving up a building block to get him. The average American League catcher hit .243/.311/.399 in 2012. Losing 23 points of OBP to get 51 of SLG is a net negative in terms of run production, so he's actually a below-average hitting catcher. His numbers were remarkably consistent from 2011 to 2012, and he turns 28 in May. This is the player that he is.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 10:30:37 GMT -5
Post by justen on Nov 10, 2012 10:30:37 GMT -5
I love the signing of Ross as our backup catcher. I was just writing on this yesterday while thinking how the sox could fill holes without impacting the MLB team. With one year left on Salty's deal I could see the sox move him as the centerpiece of a deal. It is a clear sign the Sox see the failure of the entire rotation as partly to blame on the catcher. I pointed out yesterday that our rotation was a full ERA point better with Shop behind the plate. Lets consider that neither Lava nor Salty are good defensive catchers. This means that Lava has nobody to mentor him in how to excel at the major league level. I can see the signing of Tek by the front office as a way to partially help this problem... but the best way is to play day to day with a quality catcher. Salty already had that opportunity with Tek and he still is poor defensively albeit better than he used to be. We have many more years of control at a drastically lower price in Lava and he fits the classic red sox mold of an on base type of hitter with some pop. His first year wasn't great but neither are most players first years in the bigs. This gives insurance while Lava either grows or fails. To me Salty had no more value to this team than a backup catcher... this move solidifies my presumptions. His best value to the team is in a trade to net us a quality, young cost controlled building block to move towards the future. In a league with pathetic hitting at catcher... his power sets him near the top. I would not be shocked to see Salty moved for a middle of the order bat... most likely one that plays right field. I dont think he has enough value to net a quality starter... but he could take down the demands from one of the killer Bs to somebody like Cechinni who will be blocked in the long run anyways. Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards I'm not sure Salty has as much value as you think he does. There's no way imo that he's moved as the centerpiece in any deal. He has power, yes. He also strikes out a ton and doesn't get on base much. His defense is no better than average, and he's in the last year of his contract. I could see him being sent to a second tier team for C - C+ prospects. The closest to being a centerpiece in a deal would probably be Lavarnway, as he's got a lot more value being younger, and maybe even better defensively. Or, this could be Lavarnway's year to get some good playing time in. I'm guessing they keep him and have David Ross really help in his time here. Nothing wrong with pairing your offense first catcher with a defensive specialist. I expect Lavarnway to have learned a lot by the time Ross leaves. Love the signing.
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 10:51:20 GMT -5
Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 10, 2012 10:51:20 GMT -5
Count me in with LOVING the signing of David Ross. In a previous post, I had made many of the same points above. Other than his occasional home run, Salty really doesn't move the club forward.
I was all for Tek retiring, and wow did his influence show up last year. You'd hope guys like Lester, Buchholz, etc. would be able to make their own adjustments during a game and in a season. It looks like they needed what a Varitek brought. Now don't get me wrong: Tek was at the end of a great career and needed to retire. I haven't forgot his % throwing out runners or his poor offense these last few years, but it did show last year that his "handling" of the pitching staff was very valuable.
I remember when Ross was with us before and wondering why we didn't give a guy who was solid defensively, had some power, and had been a starting catcher for the Reds a better opportunity to show what he could do. I gather, at that time, it was all about Tek and who really cared about the back-up other than being capable to catch Wake.
I love the signing and hope he catches, at least, 90 games next year. I think the pitching staff will enjoy having him behind the plate and actually having a chance to throw out a runner.
Good 1st move Ben......now sign a decent #3 or #4 starter on a one year contract. Oh.......I hope they trade Salty and not Lava.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 10:51:27 GMT -5
Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 10, 2012 10:51:27 GMT -5
Unfortunately Salty won't get the Sox much in a deal now. The time to have dealt him, like Cody Ross, would have been on the July 31st deadline last season. Now Salty becomes arbitration eligible and probably not worth what he'll make. Still, he should have some value - perhaps a decent middle reliever - the Sox seem to have trouble acquiring them
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 10:52:50 GMT -5
He also had 25 home runs in about 400 at bats... the only person to have more with close to that few at bats was Bautista. Salty was second in the league in home runs from catchers and for the first couple months of the year there were fans clamoring for him to make the all star team.
Chicks dig the long ball and so do GMs. You can't teach power but you can teach discipline... there will be a GM that thinks that way. Salty also has had a 352 OBP in 2008 so it is not like his career OBP is this low or without hope to some GM that needs to add power.
I can see Salty being a fall back plan from teams that are looking for a Mike N. type player who can play first or catcher without the expense or years. Same power... same crap defensive players... but mike gets on base more and Salty is younger. Mike will command a big multi year contract and Salty is cheap without the risk to another team. There is most definitely value there that could help net a player.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 11:03:41 GMT -5
The key for value in salty is a very weak catching market. Like stock his value is relatively strong. Dealing from a position of strength is the best way to maximize value.
Now ben.. dont fk this up and trade for another right handed bullpen arm. Get us an outfielder or starter where we have the greatest need.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 11:08:42 GMT -5
Post by James Dunne on Nov 10, 2012 11:08:42 GMT -5
He also had 25 home runs in about 400 at bats... the only person to have more with close to that few at bats was Bautista. There's something self-selecting in this statistic. The reason Saltalamacchia had so few at bats despite the home run total is because he was the worst all-around player to hit 25 home runs. It's the only part of his game that is a plus. The next lowest OBP among 25 home run hitters was BJ Upton, ten points higher. Upton is also an excellent defensive outfielder, as well as something of an enigma himself. I want to make it clear that I'm not bashing the guy. He's far from terrible and a team could certainly do worse than him at catcher if they had a desperate need. He's a switch hitter with pop who can catch. But he's simply not good enough to build around, and no team is going to give the Red Sox an important piece to make him their starting catcher. The equivalent outfielder, when considering Saltalamacchia's value level, is Peter Bourjos.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 11:16:05 GMT -5
I agree that salty isn't great... but power is the most overrated aspect of hitting. The reason for it is that you simply can't teach it. Salty is young, switch hitting as pointed out and plays an adequate premier position defensively. He also has versatility as he can play first. I am not saying that he will net us a total stud... but he can take trade demands down from one of our top five prospects in a trade to a trade with him as a MLB ready starter along with a 6-10 prospect to get us a centerpiece.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 11:19:36 GMT -5
Post by sibbysisti on Nov 10, 2012 11:19:36 GMT -5
I believe there is still a huge question mark on Lavarnway at this point. Last year at Pawtucket he hit .295 again but his HRs dropped off to 8.
In two late season appearances with Boston he hit .231 and .158 respectively. He's not known for his defensive prowess, either. Sure his minor league BAs have been impressive, but he's far from a complete packege at age 25, two years younger than Saltalamacchia.
I think many are excited about his build and ability to hit. But, imo, he's a work in progress.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 11:22:58 GMT -5
Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 10, 2012 11:22:58 GMT -5
The equivalent outfielder, when considering Saltalamacchia's value level, is Peter Bourjos. SOLD! (but i think a Salty as a backup C throw-in in a larger deal for someone like Lincecum or Alex Gordon would be ideal)
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 11:31:47 GMT -5
Lava doesnt even have a half season of at bats at the MLB level. With his minor league numbers we would be fools to give up on him so early. It should also be noted that we have only seen Lava in the show at the end of the season when catchers are typically worn down.
Lava doesnt have eye popping stats with the rotation but it should be noted that the rotation's ERA was lower with him in the small sample size than Salty.
We gave Salty time and he is a one trick pony with the bat. He is as good as gone in my book.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 11:49:11 GMT -5
Post by sibbysisti on Nov 10, 2012 11:49:11 GMT -5
The equivalent outfielder, when considering Saltalamacchia's value level, is Peter Bourjos. SOLD! (but i think a Salty as a backup C throw-in in a larger deal for someone like Lincecum or Alex Gordon would be ideal) You can bet that with Posey and Perez, Salty will never be more than a backup catcher with either of those teams. I believe he's worth more than that, though not a "centerpiece" as others have described him, in a trade. Lavarnway would have more value, and bring back better player(s), as part of a trade package.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 10, 2012 12:00:03 GMT -5
Lava would probably bring back marginally better returns for the same reason the Sox should keep him. Salty as a piece of a trade has value... not something that will bring back upton or another star... but it could net us a starter if he were packaged with a good but non blue chip prospect.
I simply think Lava has a much better approach at the plate and I see a breakout year for him coming into his prime.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 18:44:17 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Nov 10, 2012 18:44:17 GMT -5
Color Salty gone. He is still young enough and has great power numbers. He will attract people. His CERA has been below average and the Sox want to better their pitching staff. Same pitchers but new coaches and a new catching tandem that is better by whatever metric except power is in store. If Napoli climbs aboard, he may take a few shots behind the plate but I think he would man 1B unless we also sign LaRoche. I suspect, barring change in personnel, that Lavarnway will be given a continuing chance to establish himself. (Same with Iglesias).
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 20:25:54 GMT -5
Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 10, 2012 20:25:54 GMT -5
"We have to get rid of this terrible player, I bet some GM really wants him". Logic!
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 21:17:58 GMT -5
Post by rcmark on Nov 10, 2012 21:17:58 GMT -5
"We have to get rid of this terrible player, I bet some GM really wants him". Logic! Love it.
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Salty
Nov 10, 2012 21:18:55 GMT -5
Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 10, 2012 21:18:55 GMT -5
Driving back from town (time for snow tires), listening to ESPN radio. They listed the deals today - Ross to the Sox for instance - and also trade talks. They mentioned that the team was shopping Saltalamacchia around.
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Salty
Nov 11, 2012 7:44:29 GMT -5
Post by sarasoxer on Nov 11, 2012 7:44:29 GMT -5
"We have to get rid of this terrible player, I bet some GM really wants him". Logic! You have a point, of course, but isn't it a bit simplistic and dismissive? And I don't think anyone said that Salty would bring Pujols in return. There is a famous idiom which you may have heard: "One man's meat is another man's poison". And isn't that the basis of many trades? Salty's power numbers are exceptional for anyone let alone a catcher. The Sox reportedly coveted him for years. He had outstanding minor league offensive stats and was a switch-hitter. He hadn't been given much opportunity and had a solvable problem throwing back to the pitcher...Salty was that potential diamond in the rough...Eliza Doolittle. With the organization back at the drawing board and with a seemingly renewed emphasis on pitching performance and OBP, he lost luster. That doesn't mean another team might not have something of a covetous eye. Maybe someone else has a need for more power and can live with the other metrics. Still he has not caught a lot of games and he is yet young. His career rate of throwing out base-runners is probably average. Perhaps the CERA is misleading or not etched in stone. And maybe some team has a Henry Higgins who believes that all that is needed are a few cosmetic brush strokes. At any rate the Sox appear headed for divorce. Another organization might feel that Salty has a 'great body' and that with just a little make-up and in a soft light, he could be quite stunning.
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Salty
Nov 11, 2012 8:04:27 GMT -5
Post by welovewally on Nov 11, 2012 8:04:27 GMT -5
Ahh... If Salty could just clean up as good as Eliza - great play
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Salty
Nov 11, 2012 12:44:04 GMT -5
Post by Guidas on Nov 11, 2012 12:44:04 GMT -5
I would've traded Salty on July 31 instead of Shoppach. I'd use him in a package now to get what I could, or I'd resign Shoppach to a 1-2 year deal platoon him with Ross and trade Salty AND Lavarnway in packages for needs (1st base, OF, SS etc).
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Salty
Nov 11, 2012 13:14:40 GMT -5
Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 11, 2012 13:14:40 GMT -5
...and we'd be listening to moans and groans as Lavarnaway develops into a 25-30 HR/year guy, with a.380+ OBP. That's exactly where he's going. The only question that's ever existed about the guy is where he's going to play. Can you please explain why you think the Sox should sell low?
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