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Gomes and sox close to 2 year deal
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Post by welovewally on Nov 22, 2012 4:21:51 GMT -5
I would have preferred that they signed Delmon Young to be the right handed bat.
I know everybody here hates him.
When do you think they announce the signing? Not until they make room on the 40 man roster. How do they get him on the 40 man roster?
Edit; Spelling & Name
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Post by dcb26 on Nov 22, 2012 7:19:11 GMT -5
I would disappointed if the "significant payroll" BC added this offseason was to create platoons in right and left with veterans entering their 30s. In practical terms I agree, but if the Sox could find a couple of OF bats who hit RHP the way Gomes and Ross hit LHP, then yeah, I'd be OK with All-Star level production from both corner OF spots. It's rare that a team pulls off even 1 true platoon, never mind multiple positions, but if you can find the right bench guys, with the right splits and the necessary defensive versatility to be bench guys, you can build a hell of a team.
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Post by izzy on Nov 22, 2012 8:15:58 GMT -5
I would have preferred that they signed Damitri Young to be the right handed bat. I know everybody here hates him. When do you think they announce the signing? Not until they make room on the 40 man roster. How do they get him on the 40 man roster? I'm assuming you mean Delmon Young because Dmitri hasn't played in four years. Delmon has hit lefties very well in his career but he has the same deficiencies as Gomes: a poor defender and baserunner. He also has had some problems outside of baseball while the Red Sox seem to really like what Gomes brings in the locker room. I don't think signing Delmon would accomplish anything that signing Gomes doesn't.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
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Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 22, 2012 8:28:32 GMT -5
I am OK with the Gomes signing. The way I see it, Hamilton is now much less of an option because Gomes (and Nava) can only play left. Before this signing I didn't see Nava as a key player, now I think their platoon will work.
I actually believe a Sands/Kalish platoon may work in right, but because: 1) Kalish hasn't yet shown he is healthy, and 2) the Sox don't know if Sands can play right or if he will hit they probably won't get the chance immediately.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd love to see them get the opportunity.....but because of my 2 points.....I doubt it.
In Boston, we will probably need more certainty heading into spring training.
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Post by welovewally on Nov 22, 2012 8:46:08 GMT -5
I would have preferred that they signed Damitri Young to be the right handed bat. I know everybody here hates him. When do you think they announce the signing? Not until they make room on the 40 man roster. How do they get him on the 40 man roster? I'm assuming you mean Delmon Young because Dmitri hasn't played in four years. Delmon has hit lefties very well in his career but he has the same deficiencies as Gomes: a poor defender and baserunner. He also has had some problems outside of baseball while the Red Sox seem to really like what Gomes brings in the locker room. I don't think signing Delmon would accomplish anything that signing Gomes doesn't. Yes I meant Delmon.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 22, 2012 8:55:57 GMT -5
2) the Sox don't know if Sands can play right or if he will hit. There doubt whether Sands can play a decent left field, much less right.
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Post by jdb on Nov 22, 2012 9:43:22 GMT -5
Isn't Young a clubhouse cancer? No thanks. It's hard to get upset with this signing. I think Gomes/Nava will give us decent production in LF. Now on to our other needs.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 22, 2012 9:52:20 GMT -5
As long as he's used as a platoon guy I don't have a problem with it. You could quibble about the money but it's a two year deal and it's hard to imagine a scenario where his salary becomes an issue within two years. If they do take on a bunch of salary over the next few years, they can start penny-pinching on platoon bats then, but for right now, they have the luxury of paying a little extra for a player like Gomes or David Ross.
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Post by jioh on Nov 22, 2012 9:53:27 GMT -5
I would rather have the RF Ross at 3x7=21 (if that were possible) than Gomes at 2x5=10 because of Ross' defensive flexibility (including the the ability to backup CF) and because I think $7m will not handcuff us in 12, 13 or even 14 as it would have in 11 before the Punto trade. But Gomes at 2x5=10 is not much money, and Millar played RF 40+ games in 04. The total figure reminds me of the proposal by the young Jim Rice's agent, seen as outrageous at the time, that the Sox pay Rice $1M a year for ten years.
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Post by jdb on Nov 22, 2012 9:59:46 GMT -5
From Busters blog insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog/_/name/olney_buster/id/8662636/the-baltimore-orioles-draw-free-agency-not-just-fake-kind-mlbSixteen of Gomes's 18 homers with the Athletics last year were hit to left field, and the other two went to center field. In a division with CC Sabathia, Andy Pettitte, Mark Buehrle, Ricky Romero, Matt Moore, David Price, Joe Saunders (in all likelihood), etc., yes, it helps to get someone who can do damage against lefties. The Red Sox locked up a good guy in Gomes, and the money turned out to be really good for him. And if you think that Boston overpaid on Gomes, at 2 times 5, well, just wait a few weeks; his salary is going to be a lot closer to major-league average than you realize, with the expected bump in salaries this winter.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 22, 2012 10:45:40 GMT -5
As long as he's used as a platoon guy I don't have a problem with it. You could quibble about the money but it's a two year deal and it's hard to imagine a scenario where his salary becomes an issue within two years. If they do take on a bunch of salary over the next few years, they can start penny-pinching on platoon bats then, but for right now, they have the luxury of paying a little extra for a player like Gomes or David Ross. Sums up my feelings. The added benefit is that he is a good clubhouse guy by reputation and the Sox apparently see a need to establish better team chemistry. I also had a feeling that the Sox wanted to get off the snide...get things moving. They may have paid more than necessary, but they had the 'luxury' of being able to.
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Post by bluechip on Nov 22, 2012 11:15:41 GMT -5
I would rather have the RF Ross at 3x7=21 (if that were possible) than Gomes at 2x5=10 because of Ross' defensive flexibility (including the the ability to backup CF) and because I think $7m will not handcuff us in 12, 13 or even 14 as it would have in 11 before the Punto trade. But Gomes at 2x5=10 is not much money, and Millar played RF 40+ games in 04. The total figure reminds me of the proposal by the young Jim Rice's agent, seen as outrageous at the time, that the Sox pay Rice $1M a year for ten years. I agree that Ross is the superior player, and I like his versatility and defensive ability. Seven million dollars a year is a lot to pay for a guy like Ross. Especially if it ties up a spot in the lineup for three years. The advantage of giving Gomes 5 x 2, is that it gives the Red Sox the opportunity to upgrade the position in the future if Gomes/Ross does not work out or a better option becomes available.
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Post by jmei on Nov 22, 2012 11:54:23 GMT -5
I just don't think Ross will end up signing anywhere close to three years, $21m. The fangraphs crowdsourcing ( link) has been eerily accurate so far (they got Melky at two years, $16m and Gomes at two years, $10m and were close with D. Ross (predicted two years, $10m) and Hunter (predicted two years, $20m)). For Ross, they predicted three years, $30m, and while I think that's on the high side (especially with the Red Sox out of the bidding), I think Ross might end up with something close, especially given the weak remaining corner outfield crop.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 22, 2012 19:32:38 GMT -5
I just don't think Ross will end up signing anywhere close to three years, $21m. The fangraphs crowdsourcing ( link) has been eerily accurate so far (they got Melky at two years, $16m and Gomes at two years, $10m and were close with D. Ross (predicted two years, $10m) and Hunter (predicted two years, $20m)). For Ross, they predicted three years, $30m, and while I think that's on the high side (especially with the Red Sox out of the bidding), I think Ross might end up with something close, especially given the weak remaining corner outfield crop. If that's the case, there's no reason to sign him at all. I think Brentz outperforms him right now if they give him a shot. With that as context, why would you want to give him 3 years? You'd be giving the guy $10 mil to block someone who's just as good, most likely better in the near future, and who'll cost at least ten times less.
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Post by jioh on Nov 22, 2012 22:45:47 GMT -5
I just don't think Ross will end up signing anywhere close to three years, $21m. .... If that's the case, there's no reason to sign him at all. I think Brentz outperforms him right now if they give him a shot. With that as context, why would you want to give him 3 years? You'd be giving the guy $10 mil to block someone who's just as good, most likely better in the near future, and who'll cost at least ten times less. How many people are there who think Brentz would outperform Ross in the major leagues in 2013? Not many, I would think, given his 130 Ks in 122 games in AA etc; his offense and also his defense are a work in progress, although he should be fine if he moves up one level a year. For Brentz to be a good major leaguer in 2013 is an extremely rosy scenario.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 23, 2012 0:37:08 GMT -5
If that's the case, there's no reason to sign him at all. I think Brentz outperforms him right now if they give him a shot. With that as context, why would you want to give him 3 years? You'd be giving the guy $10 mil to block someone who's just as good, most likely better in the near future, and who'll cost at least ten times less. How many people are there who think Brentz would outperform Ross in the major leagues in 2013? Not many, I would think, given his 130 Ks in 122 games in AA etc; his offense and also his defense are a work in progress, although he should be fine if he moves up one level a year. For Brentz to be a good major leaguer in 2013 is an extremely rosy scenario. There is minimal chance Brentz outperforms Ross next year, but i would be happy to be wrong. He should however find some time as a callup from injuries or underperformance. Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 23, 2012 2:21:03 GMT -5
If that's the case, there's no reason to sign him at all. I think Brentz outperforms him right now if they give him a shot. With that as context, why would you want to give him 3 years? You'd be giving the guy $10 mil to block someone who's just as good, most likely better in the near future, and who'll cost at least ten times less. How many people are there who think Brentz would outperform Ross in the major leagues in 2013? Not many, I would think, given his 130 Ks in 122 games in AA etc; his offense and also his defense are a work in progress, although he should be fine if he moves up one level a year. For Brentz to be a good major leaguer in 2013 is an extremely rosy scenario. My reasoning is pretty simple. You could look high and low in the Sox system, or outside for that matter, and you'd be hard pressed to find a player with as similar a mix of strengths and weaknesses to Ross' as Brentz'. Defensively and offensively one is the mirror image of the other. Brentz' average would take a hit, no doubt, but Fenway would help his slugging. His arm would play up but otherwise his defensive skills would be average. Is it smart to bring up such a player when he's still refining his game? No it isn't. But it isn't very smart to shell out what Ross is asking for either, not for a player with quite a few holes in his skillset. As I've written before, I don't think there's a magic door that shrinks players in the high minors once they reach the majors. They bring their strengths and weaknesses with them. Ross has certainly done that.
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Post by jioh on Nov 23, 2012 12:37:02 GMT -5
How many people are there who think Brentz would outperform Ross in the major leagues in 2013? Not many, I would think, given his 130 Ks in 122 games in AA etc; his offense and also his defense are a work in progress, although he should be fine if he moves up one level a year. For Brentz to be a good major leaguer in 2013 is an extremely rosy scenario. My reasoning is pretty simple. You could look high and low in the Sox system, or outside for that matter, and you'd be hard pressed to find a player with as similar a mix of strengths and weaknesses to Ross' as Brentz'. Defensively and offensively one is the mirror image of the other. Brentz' average would take a hit, no doubt, but Fenway would help his slugging. His arm would play up but otherwise his defensive skills would be average. Is it smart to bring up such a player when he's still refining his game? No it isn't. But it isn't very smart to shell out what Ross is asking for either, not for a player with quite a few holes in his skillset. As I've written before, I don't think there's a magic door that shrinks players in the high minors once they reach the majors. They bring their strengths and weaknesses with them. Ross has certainly done that. I don't even see this as "reasoning." Ross and Brentz have some similarities, but not that many. Ross hit in the minors, very similar AA stats to Brentz except Ross was 21 not 23, then at age 25 Ross hit .212 for the Marlins in a little over half a season. Only at 27 did he become the moderately successful hitter he is now. There is not a "magic door" that shrinks player in the major, but the pitches that caused Brentz to strike out 130 times in 122 games in AA are pitches that major league hurlers can throw with more speed, movement and control than most AA hurlers. Brentz needs to work on this in AAA, and then probably in his first year or two or three in MLB. You have produced ZERO evidence suggesting that Brentz in MLB would hit as well as Ross this year edited for one spelling
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 23, 2012 15:38:01 GMT -5
That's because there is no evidence outside of a comparison between minor league and major league numbers. Ross's minor league numbers are so skewed by the hitting environment in Las Vegas and the PCL, they're near useless.
What I see are two low-OBP right handed power hitters both of whom have issues with chasing pitches out of the zone. Ross is very hard for me to watch sometimes for that very reason. Having only watched Brentz via online clips I have to rely on this website and the scouting reports which indicate he gets into the same sort of funk, getting himself out by chasing breaking pitches away. That's the tease that dogged Reddick for a long time, something I pointed out on the site when I first watched him years ago. He's gradually worked his way out of it to his benefit.
As for the strikeouts, last year Ross whiffed 129 times in 528 PAs. For Brentz it was 136 in 522. I'm sorry but I see very little difference in their approaches, right down to the isolated discipline, or lack of it and the .450 slugging percentage both are capable of.
We can agree to disagree since there's no way to resolve this. I got my two cents in when Reddick was finally given a full season somewhere else. He did largely what he'd done in the minors, except he did it over a larger number of PAs. That meant lots of home runs but also big swings in his effectiveness as he struggled to regain control of the strike zone.
As I've said, I don't believe they should bring Brentz up. But I also believe that if they did, he'd look an awful lot like Cody Ross.
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Post by jioh on Nov 23, 2012 17:15:47 GMT -5
That's because there is no evidence outside of a comparison between minor league and major league numbers. Ross's minor league numbers are so skewed by the hitting environment in Las Vegas and the PCL, they're near useless. What I see are two low-OBP right handed power hitters both of whom have issues with chasing pitches out of the zone. Ross is very hard for me to watch sometimes for that very reason. Having only watched Brentz via online clips I have to rely on this website and the scouting reports which indicate he gets into the same sort of funk, getting himself out by chasing breaking pitches away. That's the tease that dogged Reddick for a long time, something I pointed out on the site when I first watched him years ago. He's gradually worked his way out of it to his benefit. As for the strikeouts, last year Ross whiffed 129 times in 528 PAs. For Brentz it was 136 in 522. I'm sorry but I see very little difference in their approaches, right down to the isolated discipline, or lack of it and the .450 slugging percentage both are capable of. We can agree to disagree since there's no way to resolve this. I got my two cents in when Reddick was finally given a full season somewhere else. He did largely what he'd done in the minors, except he did it over a larger number of PAs. That meant lots of home runs but also big swings in his effectiveness as he struggled to regain control of the strike zone. As I've said, I don't believe they should bring Brentz up. But I also believe that if they did, he'd look an awful lot like Cody Ross. I don't see what you're saying at all. You're assuming that the ability to do X in AA means that the next year you can do this in MLB. Isn't this just 100% wrong? Reddick indeed "did largely what he'd done in the minors, " but not the year after he had a decent year in AA, but only two and three years later, and Reddick struck out about 60x a year in the minors. I don't care about Ross' strikeouts, MLB strikeouts are just outs. Brentz' AA strikeouts are a serious problem, because mlb pitchers are better. Brentz' 2 for 17 in AAA is a tiny sample size, but it wouldn't be surprising if he is challenged in AAA, and we hope he adjusts and meets the challenge. Your claim that we shouldn't be or have been interested in Ross because Brentz could equal his performance is also just wrong.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 24, 2012 12:13:50 GMT -5
I think the Red Sox see in Gomes the type of player that will thrive in Fenway much the same way Ross did.
I also think this shows a concerted effort to change the clubhouse culture. Both Ross and Gomes are thought of as great clubhouse guys.
As for the outfield, I'd be stunned if there wasn't another OF signing/acquisition.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 24, 2012 20:55:49 GMT -5
I think the Red Sox see in Gomes the type of player that will thrive in Fenway much the same way Ross did. I also think this shows a concerted effort to change the clubhouse culture. Both Ross and Gomes are thought of as great clubhouse guys. As for the outfield, I'd be stunned if there wasn't another OF signing/acquisition. Also Gomes has a superior approach at the plate with very good discipline. He's had many years when his OBP is nearly 100 points over his average. He'll be very useful as the right-handed part of a platoon. That separates him from Ross and makes him more valuable.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2012 21:34:15 GMT -5
If the Sox view Gomes as a 500 AB outfielder, then there is an issue. But if they view him as a platoon/bench player, even at an overpay, there isn't much downside. They have the financial flexibility where if it turns out to be a disaster in year 1, they can either just cut him and eat the $ or trade him and pay the majority of that 2nd year
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 25, 2012 0:08:02 GMT -5
...I don't see what you're saying at all. You're assuming that the ability to do X in AA means that the next year you can do this in MLB. Isn't this just 100% wrong? Reddick indeed "did largely what he'd done in the minors, " but not the year after he had a decent year in AA, but only two and three years later, and Reddick struck out about 60x a year in the minors. I don't care about Ross' strikeouts, MLB strikeouts are just outs. Brentz' AA strikeouts are a serious problem, because mlb pitchers are better. Brentz' 2 for 17 in AAA is a tiny sample size, but it wouldn't be surprising if he is challenged in AAA, and we hope he adjusts and meets the challenge. Your claim that we shouldn't be or have been interested in Ross because Brentz could equal his performance is also just wrong. First things first. This isn't a comparison of Reddick and Brentz. It's a discussion about the trajectory of young players. When given the chance for a permanent spot, Reddick showed both the strengths and weaknesses he'd shown in the minors. The strengths resulted in good power as he adjusted to the pitching, and the weaknesses led to a lower batting average as the pitchers adjusted to him. That dynamic continues. Take his first 600+ plate appearances. That includes his two seasons with the Sox where he had minimal at bats and his third where he was a part-time player at best.. Add to that his first three months in Oakland as the full time right-fielder and an option in center. That gets you to 617. That's not a full season but it does start to give you an idea about a player's abilities. The variation isn't completely washed out but you do have a decent sample. Do that and you get a line of .253/.310/.460 for Reddick, or an OPS of .770. That may not be who he is, and it doesn't take into account the additional back and forth of more time familiarizing himself with pitchers and what they want to accomplish when he's at the plat. But it starts to get you in the ballpark. It's my opinion that given 600+ at bats, Brentz would approximate Ross's numbers. I think he could put up a line something like .260/.310/.460. He'd lose a bit off his average, he'd have a poorer walk rate, and Fenway might help a little with the power. His strikeout rate would be worse and he could approach 150+ strikeouts which is B.J. Upton territory. You're certainly welcome to give your own guesstimate. That's all this is after all, unless the team parks him out there and leaves him which I hope they don't. He's not ready. Judging from his OBP and his performance against righthanders, neither is Ross. I don't think that's very good at all for a corner outfielder. I don't think Cody Ross, who's lifetime numbers approximate that line is a very good hitter. So why pay $10 million for something mediocre you could get more cheaply if you had to?
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