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Breaking: Larry Lucchino out as Red Sox CEO
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 1, 2015 23:33:28 GMT -5
What are people going to do now that they won't be able to blame Larry for everything that goes wrong? Sam Kennedy might be a perfectly fine CEO but he seems like he'll make an awful boogeyman.
On the other hand, he's a Kennedy from Brookline, so at least for some in the AM radio crowd maybe he's the ultimate boogeyman.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 1, 2015 23:56:08 GMT -5
For most of us there's no knowing at whose feet the poor decisions should be laid. But as Fenway pointed out, this is telling, that he would be the first to go.
Some perspective is in order. Ramirez is still dangerous at the plate - when healthy. So it's easy to understand the logic of his contract. Ortiz isn't getting younger, with the time he takes to kickstart his season an issue once again this year. Others have said this: Ramirez is a nice chip to have in your stack when the end finally comes for Papi, as long as you hold your nose at some of the defensive gaffs. He won't have to carry a glove forever, and he does seem to have figured out at least a few of the bounces off the monster.
Sandoval was much more difficult to fathom. His production has been declining for a while, something that many pointed out. I don't attribute that to his weight either. The guy will just swing at anything and everything. As for the defensive shortcomings, they're painful because he was decent in the past. Even though he's been better lately - he's much smoother at the bag than either Holt, Shaw, or anyone else the team could stick there - the early lapses were demoralizing and they cost games. It just looked like a lack of focus.
Was he Lucchino's doing? We won't know till the memoirs get published. I will say this. If we start seeing a very different approach - in the team's efforts to retain talent, for free agent buys, in the way minor league trade assets are utilized, and in the way the roster gets constructed - that will go a long way to figuring out who had what role. The baseball ecosystem has changed dramatically. Teams will really have to be smart about their resources. Let's see what happens next.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 1:15:43 GMT -5
Larry getting shown the door is like Christmas come early.
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Post by burythehammer on Aug 2, 2015 4:27:57 GMT -5
I don't think it's telling. Who says he's being forced out? I'm literally waking up to this news but I don't believe even Shaughnessy is pushing the narrative that Larry's been "fired"? And that is literally exactly the agenda Shank would want to push ("The nerds have won", etc).
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Post by chud on Aug 2, 2015 8:07:31 GMT -5
Larry getting shown the door is like Christmas come early. LL is definitely the "bad cop" in the organization. Although most of us (including me) only really know anything about the dynamics in the FO from what we read and hear, it certainly sounds like he's had his share of misgivings (Lester, Texiera, A-Rod, Theo etc...)...But think we need to at least acknowledge that as CEO he played a large role in most/all of the Sox successes over this historic run. The funny thing is, prior to 2004, fans (again, including me) thought whomever brought the Sox a WS victory would have a free pass for life. But, isn't that a very naive of any of us to think, "free passes" don't exist in sports...Francona was accused of running a loose ship after winning 2 WS, Theo wanted out (probably in part due to LL) and immediately following some historically bad FA signings and trades, and now LL is being replaced (the guy is 70 after all and i believe he wants to step back...not being fired) and carries a lot of bad will with him as the "bad cop"...but the guy did bring in 3 WS over 11 years, not too shabby right?!...The guy gets credit for that! That said, I'm very hopeful they build in a "President of Baseball Ops" position like Theo has in Chicago...The trend of splitting responsibilities and increasing span of control seems like a total no brainer, and is also gaining steam in the NFL with some teams preferring the GM and HC to both have equal power (not saying that here, but giving an example of how Kennnedy would work side by side with a Baseball Ops President)...Again, just a thought, but think it's time for the split in responsibilities...and I can't help but notice the timing of all of this...hmmmm...comes right on the heals of a terrible season and "no deal" trade deadline...So a switch they of course have been planning for a while, but color me crazy in that even in his out processing LL has spun this into a PR masterpiece as if to say "don't worry fans, I know we didn't make any trades and that you're not interested in the team, but the change is beginning and it's starting with me"...genius actually
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Post by GyIantosca on Aug 2, 2015 8:56:21 GMT -5
Is he the fall guy for the pitching strategy? He admitted to the Lester fiasco. He started with 4 and 70 million. I wonder if he lead the don't sign anyone under 30 to long term deals regarding pitchers. This is what is frustrating about finding out what Ben did do and didn't do with regards to building this team.
I don't know if this is the complete answer but something needs to happen here with this team. I know Shawnessey must be sick. There is his big connection to the team. Watch his articles now. We will see.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 2, 2015 9:04:48 GMT -5
I don't think it's telling. Who says he's being forced out? I'm literally waking up to this news but I don't believe even Shaughnessy is pushing the narrative that Larry's been "fired"? And that is literally exactly the agenda Shank would want to push ("The nerds have won", etc). I agreed with Oregon Norm except with the 'Larry going is telling' part. Larry is 70 and Kennedy has been taking over some responsibilities since the spring in a gradual transformation. And you are so right about Shaughnessy....This would be right in his wheelhouse if there was fire behind the smoke. He would chew on the hardest jerky until it was mush if his 'sniffer' detected a one part per million odor.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,823
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Post by steveofbradenton on Aug 2, 2015 9:30:44 GMT -5
It will be interesting if they replace some of Larry's responsibilities. Sam Kennedy will not be fulfilling all of Lucchino's skills. Many of us on here think another strong personality with in-depth major league knowledge will be helpful to Ben Cherington. Just make sure it is not Bowden.
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Post by arzjake on Aug 2, 2015 9:41:45 GMT -5
Henry setting up the Front Office for a run at Billy the Beane??
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Post by arzjake on Aug 2, 2015 9:45:21 GMT -5
Larry getting shown the door is like Christmas come early. LL is definitely the "bad cop" in the organization. Although most of us (including me) only really know anything about the dynamics in the FO from what we read and hear, it certainly sounds like he's had his share of misgivings (Lester, Texiera, A-Rod, Theo etc...)...But think we need to at least acknowledge that as CEO he played a large role in most/all of the Sox successes over this historic run. The funny thing is, prior to 2004, fans (again, including me) thought whomever brought the Sox a WS victory would have a free pass for life. But, isn't that a very naive of any of us to think, "free passes" don't exist in sports...Francona was accused of running a loose ship after winning 2 WS, Theo wanted out (probably in part due to LL) and immediately following some historically bad FA signings and trades, and now LL is being replaced (the guy is 70 after all and i believe he wants to step back...not being fired) and carries a lot of bad will with him as the "bad cop"...but the guy did bring in 3 WS over 11 years, not too shabby right?!...The guy gets credit for that! That said, I'm very hopeful they build in a "President of Baseball Ops" position like Theo has in Chicago...The trend of splitting responsibilities and increasing span of control seems like a total no brainer, and is also gaining steam in the NFL with some teams preferring the GM and HC to both have equal power (not saying that here, but giving an example of how Kennnedy would work side by side with a Baseball Ops President)...Again, just a thought, but think it's time for the split in responsibilities...and I can't help but notice the timing of all of this...hmmmm...comes right on the heals of a terrible season and "no deal" trade deadline...So a switch they of course have been planning for a while, but color me crazy in that even in his out processing LL has spun this into a PR masterpiece as if to say "don't worry fans, I know we didn't make any trades and that you're not interested in the team, but the change is beginning and it's starting with me"...genius actually The on field product starting falling apart when Epstein and Francona were let go. Was LL the main culprit?
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Post by jmei on Aug 2, 2015 9:54:38 GMT -5
My take: Lucchino's retirement following the season was in the works all year. They decided to announce it early to take some of the heat off Cherington. Lucchino was not fired because of the struggles of the 2015 Red Sox, and I suspect he had far less to do with such struggles than you all seem you think.
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Post by Gwell55 on Aug 2, 2015 10:01:37 GMT -5
LL is definitely the "bad cop" in the organization. Although most of us (including me) only really know anything about the dynamics in the FO from what we read and hear, it certainly sounds like he's had his share of misgivings (Lester, Texiera, A-Rod, Theo etc...)...But think we need to at least acknowledge that as CEO he played a large role in most/all of the Sox successes over this historic run. The funny thing is, prior to 2004, fans (again, including me) thought whomever brought the Sox a WS victory would have a free pass for life. But, isn't that a very naive of any of us to think, "free passes" don't exist in sports...Francona was accused of running a loose ship after winning 2 WS, Theo wanted out (probably in part due to LL) and immediately following some historically bad FA signings and trades, and now LL is being replaced (the guy is 70 after all and i believe he wants to step back...not being fired) and carries a lot of bad will with him as the "bad cop"...but the guy did bring in 3 WS over 11 years, not too shabby right?!...The guy gets credit for that! That said, I'm very hopeful they build in a "President of Baseball Ops" position like Theo has in Chicago...The trend of splitting responsibilities and increasing span of control seems like a total no brainer, and is also gaining steam in the NFL with some teams preferring the GM and HC to both have equal power (not saying that here, but giving an example of how Kennnedy would work side by side with a Baseball Ops President)...Again, just a thought, but think it's time for the split in responsibilities...and I can't help but notice the timing of all of this...hmmmm...comes right on the heals of a terrible season and "no deal" trade deadline...So a switch they of course have been planning for a while, but color me crazy in that even in his out processing LL has spun this into a PR masterpiece as if to say "don't worry fans, I know we didn't make any trades and that you're not interested in the team, but the change is beginning and it's starting with me"...genius actually The on field product starting falling apart when Epstein and Francona were let go. Was LL the main culprit? A few thoughts Funny that everyone doesn't consider LL was the one who led the Beckett/Lowell acquisition which led to 2007 WS Win. All the talk was about the gorilla suit back then but someone was still working in the front office. Theo doesn't deserve much if any of the credit for running out back then really. In real world reality Larry seemed to embrace his roll in the front office and did a great job of deflecting also it appears. All you have to do is look at this board and the celebrating now to see that. No one remembers who took Theo under his wing prior to the sox either. Who brought Theo here as it turned out? When a guy reaches 70 and is still working strong sometimes more rest is in their future or a different motivational bar is seen. How much of this "motorcycle wreck" and looking at life at 70 changed Larry's outlook? We don't know and probably never will regardless of what the media minions and nutcases claim. LL did a fine job for this organization and got needlessly attacked over and over and that doesn't seem fair to me.
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Post by chud on Aug 2, 2015 10:03:36 GMT -5
My take: Lucchino's retirement following the season was in the works all year. They decided to announce it early to take some of the heat off Cherington. Lucchino was not fired because of the struggles of the 2015 Red Sox, and I suspect he had far less to do with such struggles than you all seem you think. Here's my scientific comment on the above: Agree in spades to all of it!
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Post by chud on Aug 2, 2015 10:12:28 GMT -5
[/quote]
LL did a fine job for this organization and got needlessly attacked over and over and that doesn't seem fair to me.
[/quote]
I'll add one thought to the above...I think he understood his role was being the heavy to soak up all the negative comments to pave the way for others to act...He almost seemed to embrace that part of his job, but certainly understood it was part of the job description...And I'm just trying to be fair to LL, as i'm not an apologist for him...But he was vital to the 3 WS and deserves credit...How many other Sox CEO's were responsible for 3 WS wins, never mind that they took place in an 11 year span...Same goes for Warner/Henry et al and the entire ownership group...These guys, as all high level executives, are judged on results not necessarily on their style/personality etc...and it's tough to argue with these results over their span since buying/running the team despite the lack of success over the last couple of seasons...
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 2, 2015 10:24:39 GMT -5
Lucchino is the strongest, most authoritative appearing personality in Sox management. He appears to be an assertive, aggressive, driving the bus guy and that type IMO can create some unease. When things go wrong people are more likely to extract a measure of retribution in a sense. None of us knows what part he played in decision making. We have just assumed the lead role by virtue of his personality. It does not appear from the report that there is any measure of dissension or acrimony within the organization. Larry will, if he wants, continue in an executive capacity with the club. He publicly championed Kennedy as his replacement. The transfer of responsibilities has been under way at least since spring. Larry is 70 as noted. He has been intimately immersed in baseball forever. Give him a nod and his due and let him put his feet up.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 2, 2015 11:27:16 GMT -5
My take: Lucchino's retirement following the season was in the works all year. They decided to announce it early to take some of the heat off Cherington. Lucchino was not fired because of the struggles of the 2015 Red Sox, and I suspect he had far less to do with such struggles than you all seem you think. If so, this puts Ben squarely in the crosshairs. Someone mentioned that Beane has an ownership position with OAK. The exact same percentage in Boston would be worth 4-5x more. In all honesty though, if they are splitting off the non-baseball business items from this job, I'm not sure why you'd needed a president of baseball ops AND a GM. One or the other will do fine. Whomever it is should report directly to the ownership group. Titularly, that may be better served, org-chartwise, by a "President" but you don't need both job-descriptionwise, unless you're loking for another layer of bureaucracy.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 2, 2015 11:37:38 GMT -5
I have no inside knowledge of the Red Sox organization, and would defer to those who do, but I would like to add three observations:
1. Well-run organizations seldom delegate important decisions solely to one person; good managers are expected to elicit input from above and below and generate consensus. It was never clear to me whether Theo - Larry tensions were about a micromanaging superior or a subordinate chafing that the next rung on the ladder was occupied.
2. Theo managed to land a job in Chicago which is not only equivalent to Lucchino's but includes far more influence over baseball ops than Lucchino ever exerted. Theo is a very ambitious man, and such men seldom succeed without a touch of ruthlessness.
3. There have been far more negative things leaked to the press about Lucchino than anyone else in the Red Sox FO. It's really unlikely that he was ever the primary source of leaks.
And a comment on the Beckett trade, which may be the defining moment of Lucchino's legacy.
While it is hard to imaging the Red Sox winning it all in 2007 without Beckett, that trade cost the Red Sox 15-20 WAR over half a decade, and set off a chain reaction of decisions that contributed mightily to 3 last place finishes in 4 years. While there is no way of knowing what decisions would have been made, it isn't hard to see how the Red Sox spent a lot of money and traded prospects to recover those 15 to 20 WAR.
In the end, I expect Lucchino's legacy will be as ambiguous as anyone else's, but will still include that he was part of three champion teams.
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Post by beavertontim on Aug 2, 2015 12:32:05 GMT -5
I have no inside knowledge of the Red Sox organization, and would defer to those who do, but I would like to add three observations: 1. Well-run organizations seldom delegate important decisions solely to one person; good managers are expected to elicit input from above and below and generate consensus. It was never clear to me whether Theo - Larry tensions were about a micromanaging superior or a subordinate chafing that the next rung on the ladder was occupied. 2. Theo managed to land a job in Chicago which is not only equivalent to Lucchino's but includes far more influence over baseball ops than Lucchino ever exerted. Theo is a very ambitious man, and such men seldom succeed without a touch of ruthlessness. 3. There have been far more negative things leaked to the press about Lucchino than anyone else in the Red Sox FO. It's really unlikely that he was ever the primary source of leaks. And a comment on the Beckett trade, which may be the defining moment of Lucchino's legacy. While it is hard to imaging the Red Sox winning it all in 2007 without Beckett, that trade cost the Red Sox 15-20 WAR over half a decade, and set off a chain reaction of decisions that contributed mightily to 3 last place finishes in 4 years. While there is no way of knowing what decisions would have been made, it isn't hard to see how the Red Sox spent a lot of money and traded prospects to recover those 15 to 20 WAR. In the end, I expect Lucchino's legacy will be as ambiguous as anyone else's, but will still include that he was part of three champion teams. I will take 4 last place finishes over a twelve year period in exchange for 3 World Series wins during that same period anytime.
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Post by jdb on Aug 2, 2015 13:59:50 GMT -5
So does this make it less or more likely Cherington is replaced?
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Post by sammo420 on Aug 2, 2015 14:23:00 GMT -5
So does this make it less or more likely Cherington is replaced? My early guess is less, at least if you believe LL having his hands in things is responsible for some of our struggles and bad decision making. Right away the thought entered my head "I wonder if something happened at the deadline. Maybe BC didn't get the go ahead on a trade and put his foot down a la Theo?" But those thoughts quickly left. I think I was reading too much into the timing of this.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Aug 2, 2015 14:31:33 GMT -5
It's tough to know exactly how involved Lucchino was in each aspect of the Red Sox, but I thought I'd make a quick pros and cons list:
Cons: 1. Too involved in player decisions: it has often been noted how he clashed with Epstein and many of the 'bad' decisions have been pushed onto Lucchino - whether his fault or not. 2. Public relations: At times he seemed liked an emotional guy who is desperate to make the Red Sox a winner (just like many of us) - but at other times he sounded like a blow hard that many of us would have preferred being quiet.
Pros: 1. Stadium remains Fenway Park: When this new ownership group, and Lucchino, took over the Red Sox there was heavy discussion that Fenway would have to be torn down and a new Stadium would need to be built as Fenway was too small and antiquated. A decade and a half later and all of that seems like a distant memory. 2. Renovation of Fenway park: remember when those right field seats weren't there? The bathroom and restaurant renovations? The Green Monster seats? There were many who objected to the Green Monster seats when they were built - when was the last time you heard someone complain about those seats? 3. Bringing Epstein to the Red Sox: Theo Epstein, who many revere as 'the guy who brought the Red Sox their first championship in over 85 years' followed Luccchino here from the Padres. Even if all of the blame goes to Lucchino and all of the praise goes to Epstein, there would be no Epstein without Lucchino. 4. Opening up the pockets: This is mostly an ownership decision, but I'm sure Lucchino was part of the 'spend as much money on MLB acquisitions up to the luxury tax' and 'spend as much, or more, than everyone else outside of MLB acquisitions'. These costs are not just for minor league and international players but also for the above renovations, marketing, etc. Everything needed for a top-notch franchise. 5. Focusing on building the Farm: Cherrington and Epstein rightfully get much of the credit for this, but if an organization is going to concentrated so heavily on this aspect it is clearly a directive from the top. The increased spending, scouting heavily in areas that weren't an emphasis in the past (Japan and Venezuela come to mind), and a second Dominican team all come to mind. 6. Purchasing the Pawsox: In theory I love this idea, and we know from reports that this has been Lucchino's project of late. 7. Winning 3 World Series: there are many who can take credit for this, but in any company much of the blame and credit has to go to the top. Lucchino overlooked a team that was one of the most successful sports franchises over the past decade and a half.
I'm certainly not a Lucchino fan as I've been just as annoyed/frustrated by his actions as everyone else. But looking back on things - it's hard to argue with the results.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 2, 2015 14:57:56 GMT -5
I didn't expect Lucchino to go this soon and from what Scott Miller from CBS had tweeted, it sounds like Lucchino is taking a break from the game and will be trying to catch on with another team at some point in the future. If that's the case that tells me that Lucchino, who Henry referred to as the guy who ran the Red Sox, was in essence let go, or pushed aside (I don't want to say fired), and if that's the case, this could mean that the Sox change their M.O. I'd be interested in what Eric Van has to say about this as far as - if Lucchino isn't running the Sox, and the Sox found a guy to replace Larry who was more statistically oriented, would that increase the chances of the Sox bringing back the analysts they let go? If so, that would be a change in the way the Sox are doing business, which could be a good thing. In mid-2008 Tito finally got fed up with all the daily lineup advice that was coming from the analysts and being passed through Zack Scott (not 2007 as per his book with Shaugnessy, BTW). The last straw was a recommendation for Mike Lowell to sit against Chien-Ming Wang, which Tito correctly rejected. That advice must have come from someone else doing matchup analysis (swing paths, I think), because my recommendation for that series mentioned only C and SS and then said "I don't think anyone else will want to sit against the Yankees." Not as much as an aside as it seems: I actually gave Tito a printout of that e-mail when he was at a book signing at Costco! He apparently always wondered who I was, and the FO didn't want him to meet me. But I would have been on his side in terms of putting player's comfort and mental game ahead of the stats. It's the job of the FO and manager to convince the players to do the sabermetrically correct thing, and some of those things, like asking a guy as proud as Lowell to sit against the Yankees, will never fly and in the long run will be counter-productive. Jed Hoyer was great at conveying these ideas to Tito; Zack, who succeeded him, was less good. It was Jed, who hadn't been my direct boss since 2005, and not Zack, who called me to tell me that my days giving lineup advice for each series were over. What should I do instead? Jed said, whatever I felt like doing. His phrase was something like "just use your genius" (the last word I certainly remember, of course). And I mention that only because it's a fact about what the Asst. GM would have told the CEO about the quality and potential value of my work. The next February I learned from Zack that "ownership" had ordered the FO to lay off all their consultants but one (Tom Tippett). I was told that the FO was very pissed about this. And they asked for, and eventually got, six months of pay for me, to do nothing. Which was, BTW, just $9K. Given that John Henry had hired me personally and that he hired Bill James as the first thing he did, I think it's safe to say that this "ownership" directive came from LL. But I want to make it clear that I don't know that for a fact. I should also mention that I had told a few years previously that I would do a heck of a lot more for them if they'd pay me more than $1500 a month, that I had more ideas for advanced projects than I could count. This led to a clause in my contract stating that I should write up a set of proposed "New Projects" which would be contracted for separately, after discussion with Bill and the FO. I spent two years on that proposal, and was within a few weeks of finishing it up when I was laid off. Some of those ideas have still not been pursued. Given all of this, how much value do you think LL placed on analysis? I don't think the same analysts will be re-hired, but I would certainly think that we might see a greater emphasis on analysis in general. Wow, Hope you are comfortably retired. You won't work in the bigs again.
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Post by arzjake on Aug 2, 2015 15:04:18 GMT -5
I have no inside knowledge of the Red Sox organization, and would defer to those who do, but I would like to add three observations: 1. Well-run organizations seldom delegate important decisions solely to one person; good managers are expected to elicit input from above and below and generate consensus. It was never clear to me whether Theo - Larry tensions were about a micromanaging superior or a subordinate chafing that the next rung on the ladder was occupied. 2. Theo managed to land a job in Chicago which is not only equivalent to Lucchino's but includes far more influence over baseball ops than Lucchino ever exerted. Theo is a very ambitious man, and such men seldom succeed without a touch of ruthlessness. 3. There have been far more negative things leaked to the press about Lucchino than anyone else in the Red Sox FO. It's really unlikely that he was ever the primary source of leaks. And a comment on the Beckett trade, which may be the defining moment of Lucchino's legacy. While it is hard to imaging the Red Sox winning it all in 2007 without Beckett, that trade cost the Red Sox 15-20 WAR over half a decade, and set off a chain reaction of decisions that contributed mightily to 3 last place finishes in 4 years. While there is no way of knowing what decisions would have been made, it isn't hard to see how the Red Sox spent a lot of money and traded prospects to recover those 15 to 20 WAR. In the end, I expect Lucchino's legacy will be as ambiguous as anyone else's, but will still include that he was part of three champion teams. I will take 4 last place finishes over a twelve year period in exchange for 3 World Series wins during that same period anytime. Problem is 3 of those last place finishes in last 4 seasons. With the resources Boston has that is unacceptable in anyone's tenure
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2015 15:16:11 GMT -5
Billy Beane makes perfect sense for all parties concerned. The A's and San Jose have tried every avenue available to make that move happen. However, without a commissioner capable and/or willing to make a concerted effort to get the 23 owner votes necessary to change the Giants and A's territorial rights to what they're supposed to be in the first place, the A's are stuck in the dump that is Oakland. And before anyone claims the A's could make it work in Oakland, I challenge you to walk the streets of that city at night. In the Bay Area, Oakland's the place you go at night if you want to be mugged or murdered. And then there's the fact that Beane loves soccer - He even calls it "futbol" - and might be attracted to the opportunity of working with the Liverpool franchise. Hell, it even makes sense from a personal standpoint. Billy's oldest daughter is reaching the age where she's applying to college. Surely, the Red Sox can pull some strings and get her accepted to Harvard so that Billy won't be "caught in the middle." For the love of God make it happen!
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 2, 2015 15:19:54 GMT -5
And Larry let the MFY know a new sheriff was in town. Labeling them the Evil Empire was a beautiful thing. Larry could trade barbs with the best of them.
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