SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Ben Cherington to step down; Dave Dombrowski joins FO
|
Post by jrffam05 on Aug 18, 2015 21:11:12 GMT -5
Let's not get carried away with hyperbole about DD trading the entire farm system. I'm sure he and JWH discussed that and I doubt JWH would have hired him if DD didn't express respect for the development process. Ben's mistake (well, one of them anyways) was a reluctance to trade from the farm system. Prospects that may have had some value at one time were kept around until they had no value. Remember all the hype about Renaudo after Boras extracted a big bonus from his buddy Theo? He reached the bigs last year and it was striking how pedestrian his stuff was. Garin Cecchini, Deven Marrero, Bryce Brentz are also among those who could have been at least pot sweeteners in a trade at one time but whose value has plummeted. One of the strengths of a good organization is sage evaluation of its own young players and making the right judgments about which ones to keep and which ones to cash in. That's what we need DD to bring. If Ranaldo, Cecchinni, Marrero, and Brentz lose their trade value in a process that brought us Bogaerts, Betts, and Swihart there isn't much to complain about.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2015 21:11:59 GMT -5
Remember: Dombrowski built excellent farm systems when he was GM of the Expos (Cliff Flord, Rondell White, Charles Johnson) and Marlins (Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Edgar Rentaria). It would be unfair to say that he does not understand the importance of building a strong farm system or that he is unable to build such a farm system. It would be fair, however, to say that DD will likely build a different type of farm system than the Epstein/Cherington regimes. DD has tended to focus on power arms and athletic tools and has been far less active internationally. Fair enough-- Dombrowski has certainly favored the toolshed-type of player. That said, he may well retain some or all of the amateur scouting apparatus, and if he does so, there should be less of a transition than you'd initially think.
|
|
|
Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Aug 18, 2015 21:12:22 GMT -5
Remember: he traded Randy Freaking Johnson for Mark Langston. Expect history to repeat itself. Cabrera and Willis for miller and maybin worked out pretty well
|
|
|
Post by notguilty on Aug 18, 2015 21:12:46 GMT -5
Remember: Dombrowski built excellent farm systems when he was GM of the Expos (Cliff Flord, Rondell White, Charles Johnson) and Marlins (Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Edgar Rentaria). It would be unfair to say that he does not understand the importance of building a strong farm system or that he is unable to build such a farm system. I hear that, but when was that? The situation in Boston, with the pressure to win is much closer to what he had in Detroit than what he faced with the Expos and the Marlins. Boston has more of a win-now mindset, as Detroit did. It's not unreasonable to anticipate that hos MO is going to be closer to what it was in Detroit than with the Expos and the marlins more than a decade ago. It's not that he can't build farm systems; it's that his most recent track record has shown that in a win-now context, he doesn't seem to care much for them.
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Aug 18, 2015 21:12:49 GMT -5
Remember: he traded Randy Freaking Johnson for Mark Langston. Expect history to repeat itself. He's going to trade Randy Johnson again?
|
|
|
Post by ibsmith85 on Aug 18, 2015 21:13:22 GMT -5
Ahhhh, another reason I hate this move, it somehow brought back the overly aggravating misspellings of Ranaudo.
|
|
|
Post by theolearyfactor on Aug 18, 2015 21:14:09 GMT -5
Remember: Dombrowski built excellent farm systems when he was GM of the Expos (Cliff Flord, Rondell White, Charles Johnson) and Marlins (Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Edgar Rentaria). It would be unfair to say that he does not understand the importance of building a strong farm system or that he is unable to build such a farm system. Agreed. As I understand it his Detroit tenure was shaped by Mike Ilitch desperately wanting a World Series in his old age. Operating under those specific conditions shouldn't speak to his perceived inability to build a farm.
|
|
|
Post by Legion of Bloom on Aug 18, 2015 21:14:30 GMT -5
I'm perfectly fine with Dombrowski as President of Baseball Ops, I'm much more saddened by the fact that Ben decided to step down as GM even when DD wanted him to stay. Maybe this means Dipoto will be our GM now? I'm hoping that Eddie Romero stays with us and that we hire a new manager.
|
|
|
Post by notguilty on Aug 18, 2015 21:14:59 GMT -5
Frank Wren. Oh my God. Like somebody said above, this has disaster written over it, and I'm not just talking Bullpens. At least we'll win the winter in signing a few big money free agents.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Aug 18, 2015 21:15:49 GMT -5
Remember: he traded Randy Freaking Johnson for Mark Langston. Expect history to repeat itself. Right, because every trade he makes will be like that. Jesus, people. Settle down. Let's see what he does. I'm skeptical, but this is a different organization and there's a decent chance he runs things a bit differently here. Like most GM's, he has a mixed bag track record.
|
|
|
Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2015 21:16:22 GMT -5
I thought it was common knowledge that Mike Illich had all of the Tigers upper management under strict orders to win now? As he wanted to win a title before he passed away.
Unless, I'm clearly mistaken, the whole freaking out over him is a bit silly.
|
|
|
Post by ethanbein on Aug 18, 2015 21:16:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Aug 18, 2015 21:16:58 GMT -5
It would be fair, however, to say that DD will likely build a different type of farm system than the Epstein/Cherington regimes. DD has tended to focus on power arms and athletic tools and has been far less active internationally. Fair enough-- Dombrowski has certainly favored the toolshed-type of player. That said, he may well retain some or all of the amateur scouting apparatus, and if he does so, there should be less of a transition than you'd initially think. My guess is that Ben will get another job quickly. I could see SD or BAL (prior relationship with Duquette, with Duquette stepping up to President) as two possibilities, plus an open invitation to join CHC in some advisory capacity. I would expect to see a lot of staff turnover this offseason, including a new manager and field staff and a new US scouting staff. I would hope that the international staff (read: Romero) survives the purge.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 18, 2015 21:17:19 GMT -5
The Price deals the last two years were also fantastic for Detroit in my opinion. Seems to be a better MLB talent evaluator than Cherington. We've had two straight GMs who have signed some pretty awful busts.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2015 21:18:19 GMT -5
Remember: Dombrowski built excellent farm systems when he was GM of the Expos (Cliff Flord, Rondell White, Charles Johnson) and Marlins (Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Edgar Rentaria). It would be unfair to say that he does not understand the importance of building a strong farm system or that he is unable to build such a farm system. I hear that, but when was that? The situation in Boston, with the pressure to win is much closer to what he had in Detroit than what he faced with the Expos and the Marlins. Boston has more of a win-now mindset, as Detroit did. It's not unreasonable to anticipate that hos MO is going to be closer to what it was in Detroit than with the Expos and the marlins more than a decade ago. It's not that he can't build farm systems; it's that his most recent track record has shown that in a win-now context, he doesn't seem to care much for them. John Henry isn't Mike Illitch.
|
|
|
Post by thegoo13 on Aug 18, 2015 21:18:59 GMT -5
Say goodbye to some of your favorite prospects now. Oh and if you thought Ben was bad at building bullpens...
Good side is major league personel decisions might get better.
Things will change and the farm will never be the same. 3 horrible teams in 4 years will usually do it. I am sorry to see Ben go.
|
|
ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,414
|
Post by ianrs on Aug 18, 2015 21:19:16 GMT -5
I'm not going to lie, I am nervous. Change means uncertainty, so of course, I am nervous. But some of the reactions 15 minutes into the hiring of Dombrowski are absolutely absurd. Let the guy make a move or two before reigning supreme judgment upon him.
Let's also remember that Dombrowski is only one person. Cherington is only one person. We still need to know who the GM will be (hopefully, Dipoto), as well as any additional internal changes to follow. If there are not a significant number of internal changes, I don't expect the team's philosophy to shift in any dramatic or insane way.
It's too bad we couldn't hold onto Ben in another organizational role. Thanks for making Soxprospects fun, Ben, and best of luck in your next endeavor.
|
|
|
Post by bigpupp on Aug 18, 2015 21:19:44 GMT -5
I thought it was common knowledge that Mike Illich had all of the Tigers upper management under strict orders to win now? As he wanted to win a title before he passed away. Unless, I'm clearly mistaken, the whole freaking out over him is a bit silly. I thought this too. Dombrowski has proven he can win in multiple places and in different ways. That's a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by soxpatsceltics on Aug 18, 2015 21:19:34 GMT -5
grantland.com/features/dave-dombrowski-detroit-tigers/To be honest I'm not real freaked out about the possibility of several prospect trades. We are at the stage where we really do need to sell at least a small chunk of our farm. And Dombrowski has a fantastic record of selling high on prospects. I remember reading this article last year and it being one of the most insightful ones I read. Basically he aces almost all trades.
|
|
|
Post by amfox1 on Aug 18, 2015 21:19:56 GMT -5
Ryan Hannable @ryanhannable 6m6 minutes ago John Henry on June 2: Ben Cherington "is going to be the general manager of this club for a very long time."
Whoopsie.
|
|
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,821
|
Post by wcp3 on Aug 18, 2015 21:22:11 GMT -5
I thought it was common knowledge that Mike Illich had all of the Tigers upper management under strict orders to win now? As he wanted to win a title before he passed away. Unless, I'm clearly mistaken, the whole freaking out over him is a bit silly. Good thing the Sox have never had overly involved owners..
|
|
|
Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 18, 2015 21:22:45 GMT -5
Because pennants aren't titles and 90+ ought be a baseline expectation for a big market team. Heck, I remember when Theo said they build a team in the offseason expecting 95 wins every year and adjust during the season as need be. You can focus on winning the AL Central five times, home of the downtrodden Tribe, the penurious Twins and the Kenny-run Chisox, while I wonder how the above resume will play in Boston. Playoff appearances are a much more meaningful benchmark. Every single GM in the league will tell you they would rather win 89 and make the playoffs as opposed to 91 and missing out. Since the turn of the decade, the Indians, Twins, and White Sox have all had successful runs. I'd guess Dombrowski's 27-year-run of being one of the most highly-regarded GMs in baseball will play just fine in Boston. 91+ wins three freaking times in 14 years. If that makes someone "highly-regarded" it's more testament to the intellectual laziness of those doing the regarding than the accomplishment of the regardee. All this with a large payroll in a weak division. And that you would even argue "perception of" as if it is any sort of evidence is embarrassing. I mean, surely Nick Cafardo will be leading the applause — does this make it a sound choice?
|
|
|
Post by taftreign on Aug 18, 2015 21:23:52 GMT -5
Remember: Dombrowski built excellent farm systems when he was GM of the Expos (Cliff Flord, Rondell White, Charles Johnson) and Marlins (Miguel Cabrera, Josh Beckett, Edgar Rentaria). It would be unfair to say that he does not understand the importance of building a strong farm system or that he is unable to build such a farm system. Agreed. As I understand it his Detroit tenure was shaped by Mike Ilitch desperately wanting a World Series in his old age. Operating under those specific conditions shouldn't speak to his perceived inability to build a farm. This!
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
|
Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 18, 2015 21:24:08 GMT -5
At the time he traded Randy Johnson, Randy was just a big malfunctioning unit. He was a tall, gangly goober with no control (minor league BB/9 numbers: 7.9, 7.1, 8.2, 5.7, 4.5) and there was no way to project that he would become one of the top 2-3 LH SP of all time. Small-market Montreal was trying to cash in on a rare chance to win, so DD traded for a solid veteran SP.
It's easy to criticize the move 300 wins and one HOF plaque later but a lot of GMs would have done the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 18, 2015 21:24:16 GMT -5
I'd be more worried about Wren than Dombrowski
|
|
|