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Post by cambos174 on Oct 13, 2015 21:03:16 GMT -5
As terrible as the bullpen was in 2015 at times, I don't think that the pen is irreparable.
There are some very interesting FAs that could make significant strides towards a pen that's an asset.
There's a need for a number of new arms to add to Koji and Taz (and hopefully Wright) and would be interested to see what the group here would want to do to build the right group. Obviously won't be as sexy as the Price, Gray, Sale talk, but may be the easiest component of the team to pick up 5-6 wins without signing a 9 figure check or trading the farm away.
Personally,I love the idea of O'Day and Hill (assuming he'd be open to a pen role). These transactions would not come cheap, but I think it would be worth opening the pockets a little to have a level of certainty in improving this part of the team.
One last question for the group: would there be any interest in getting Papelbon, if he was subsidized by Washington? I'm sure they're looking to dump.
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Post by p23w on Oct 13, 2015 21:26:16 GMT -5
Drew Storen, excellent arm. Good match, closer in waiting.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 13, 2015 21:30:33 GMT -5
As terrible as the bullpen was in 2015 at times, I don't think that the pen is irreparable. There are some very interesting FAs that could make significant strides towards a pen that's an asset. There's a need for a number of new arms to add to Koji and Taz (and hopefully Wright) and would be interested to see what the group here would want to do to build the right group. Obviously won't be as sexy as the Price, Gray, Sale talk, but may be the easiest component of the team to pick up 5-6 wins without signing a 9 figure check or trading the farm away. Personally,I love the idea of O'Day and Hill (assuming he'd be open to a pen role). These transactions would not come cheap, but I think it would be worth opening the pockets a little to have a level of certainty in improving this part of the team. One last question for the group: would there be any interest in getting Papelbon, if he was subsidized by Washington? I'm sure they're looking to dump. I wouldn't assume that Hill will be open to a pen role. He will likely sign with somebody and be given a chance to be a starter. While it's nice to think of him in the pen and on standby should an opening in the rotation come up, and I've certainly thought of that, too, it's not really likely.
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 14, 2015 3:56:23 GMT -5
Drew Storen, excellent arm. Good match, closer in waiting. Yeah, he's a good example of buying low. He's been a solid reiever for years, but fell out of favor in DC. I think they'll trade him this winter.
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Post by soxfanatic on Oct 14, 2015 4:11:26 GMT -5
FA relievers I would target for various reasons:
RHP:
Mark Lowe Tommy Hunter (provided he's not too expensive) Shawn Kelley
LHP:
Sean Marshall Tony Sipp (provided he's not too expensive)
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 14, 2015 7:37:22 GMT -5
Good thread. I assume Breslow and Ogando are gone, though the latter is still under contract. That opens two spots. From within, Hembree and Escobar, the Peavy treasure trove, should get a shot. Escobar is out of options and is still only 23 or years old. Hembree can bring the heat, though he needs to show consistency. Noe Ramirez also impressed me with good movement on his pitches. I agree that Rich Hill will be seeking a starting role and wants assurances before signing with the Sox or any other team.
I do like O'Day, and Papelbon would be a good addition. I believe the Nats would prefer to keep Storen and will be anxious to dump Paps who choked their fair haired boy.
Lots of options and DD needs to make the right decisions.
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Post by mandelbro on Oct 14, 2015 8:59:35 GMT -5
For me, the pen is really where I'd like to see FIREWORKS!!!!!!.
If I were the Red Sox I would target two high-end relief arms with goal of reducing the length of games to 6 IP for our starters.
Ideally, one elite guy (Kimbrel, Chapman, Storen, Robertson) and one LOOGY who is good enough to set up (Sipp, Will Smith).
This transforms the worst bullpen in baseball into a weapon. Robertson, Koji, Taz, Will Smith? With Pat Light figuring out his splitter on the farm? Oh my.
All of a sudden, the worst BP in the league is a weapon. It also makes the pitchers we have (and are realistically stuck with) better. Rodriguez, Miley and Kelly all waste pitches - telling them to go 6 IP a night should greatly improve their bottom lines and indirectly improve our rotation.
This also creates a plan of succession for Koji, who is a few years older than Papi, who is a few years older than everyone.
All this with less expenditure of resources than the other possible ways to improve the team. So we still have the flexibility to make more moves as necessary. People always talk about renting relievers at the deadline. Perhaps the opposite approach - start the season with a fearsome bullpen and rent-a-starter if the need arises, is just as relevant and worth pursuing.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Oct 14, 2015 9:59:51 GMT -5
Good thread. I assume Breslow and Ogando are gone, though the latter is still under contract. That opens two spots. From within, Hembree and Escobar, the Peavy treasure trove, should get a shot. Escobar is out of options and is still only 23 or years old. Hembree can bring the heat, though he needs to show consistency. Noe Ramirez also impressed me with good movement on his pitches. I agree that Rich Hill will be seeking a starting role and wants assurances before signing with the Sox or any other team. I hope they keep Escobar and give him an honest shot. I hate when a guy runs out of options that young; he might even still have back of the rotation ability but has no path to finish development.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 14, 2015 10:18:56 GMT -5
Maybe a young estranged starter like Justin Grimm was when Theo acquired him. Wily Peralta?
I would take a shot at Cingrani too. He needs a change of scenery and could be a very good reliever.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Oct 14, 2015 10:42:08 GMT -5
For me, the pen is really where I'd like to see FIREWORKS!!!!!!. If I were the Red Sox I would target two high-end relief arms with goal of reducing the length of games to 6 IP for our starters. Ideally, one elite guy (Kimbrel, Chapman, Storen, Robertson) and one LOOGY who is good enough to set up (Sipp, Will Smith). This transforms the worst bullpen in baseball into a weapon. Robertson, Koji, Taz, Will Smith? With Pat Light figuring out his splitter on the farm? Oh my. All of a sudden, the worst BP in the league is a weapon. It also makes the pitchers we have (and are realistically stuck with) better. Rodriguez, Miley and Kelly all waste pitches - telling them to go 6 IP a night should greatly improve their bottom lines and indirectly improve our rotation. This also creates a plan of succession for Koji, who is a few years older than Papi, who is a few years older than everyone. All this with less expenditure of resources than the other possible ways to improve the team. So we still have the flexibility to make more moves as necessary. People always talk about renting relievers at the deadline. Perhaps the opposite approach - start the season with a fearsome bullpen and rent-a-starter if the need arises, is just as relevant and worth pursuing. I agree adding to the back end of Koji and Taz should be a priority. And that Light, Noe, Hembree, Escobar, Marban and others provide solid depth and promising future. Chapman and Sipp would make Koji, Taz and Wright a formidable group. As would Paps and O'Day with Ross and/or Layne. They Pen can be very good with a couple of exceptional back end stars. But the same can be said with the top of the Rotation, and with available $$ and redundant players and prospects, Dave can improve both. They won't be mutually exclusive. And Dave will have the $$ to spend wisely. We are lucky. Very. The Dodger AAV is nearly $200M more than teams like the Rays. Because of huge fan support (despite the misery of May-July and how NESN botched the Orsillo departure and O'Brien entrance) will again be closer to the top tier than bottom, even as the team fills up with young, cost controlled prospects
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 14, 2015 10:48:19 GMT -5
This MAY be the best way to go when improving our staff!! Either way, we can't go cheap.
Here is a few ideas to consider out of the free agent class: 1) I do believe we need at least a couple of power arms. Tommy Hunter is 29, made 4.65 mill this year and was throwing 97. He has been a decent reliever, but may be ready to really come into his own. Mark Lowe is 33 years old, wasn't real expensive, and throws at 95. Has some control problems at times, but can be rough on a hitter. Jim Johnson is 33 and made just 1.6 mill in 2015. Hasn't shown much for a couple of years, but did show some improvement earlier in the year in Atlanta. Jonathan Broxton threw 94.7 MPH this year on average and is coming off a 3 year contract that paid him 9 mill this year. May be a buy low guy with his poor performance the last couple of years. Ryan Madson is 36 and made a strong come-back this season after missing considerable time. Made only $850K and was throwing 94. 2) a good middle reliever who is a more of a unique different look pitcher. Darren O'Day is definitely someone who fits that and could be a good fit. He is 33 and made 4.25 mill this year (last year of a 3 year contract). Not sure where to put Bobby Parnell who is 31. May be a buy low after his injuries. 3) previous closers. Tyler Clippard is just 31, average about 92 mph, and made some big dollars this season at 8.3 mill. Very consistent and hard to hit. Never gives up many base runners. Joakim Soria is 32 and made 7 mill in his last year of a 3 year contract. His average mph was 92. 4) a left reliever would be very helpful. Tony Sipp is 32 and made 2.4 mill in 2015 and his velo is around 91, but has great numbers this last 2 years for hits per 9 innings. Antonio Bastardo is 30 and made 3.1 this season. His average velocity is 92.7. Finally Sean Marshall if healthy may be a good buy low candidate. He made 6.5 mill this year and was injured most of the season.
I think Hunter would be reliable, but I like Lowe and even Madson. I love O'Day and would like him targeted for sure. Clippard would be a nice pick-up IMO, and Sipp would fit real nicely in our pen. I hope Dombrowski brings in 2 to 3 guys. These are my guys who intrigue me for 2016. I know velocity isn't close to being everything, but it can be a part of the final decision.
How about Lowe for $2 mill, Madson for $1.5 mill, O'Day a 2 year contract for $10 mill, and Tony Sipp a 2 year contract for $7 mill?
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Post by 0ap0 on Oct 14, 2015 13:02:23 GMT -5
2) a good middle reliever who is a more of a unique different look pitcher. I ask this as an honest question: is there any evidence that a unique different look pitcher as middle relief helps?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 13:02:42 GMT -5
This MAY be the best way to go when improving our staff!! Either way, we can't go cheap. Here is a few ideas to consider out of the free agent class: 1) I do believe we need at least a couple of power arms. Tommy Hunter is 29, made 4.65 mill this year and was throwing 97. He has been a decent reliever, but may be ready to really come into his own. Mark Lowe is 33 years old, wasn't real expensive, and throws at 95. Has some control problems at times, but can be rough on a hitter. Jim Johnson is 33 and made just 1.6 mill in 2015. Hasn't shown much for a couple of years, but did show some improvement earlier in the year in Atlanta. Jonathan Broxton threw 94.7 MPH this year on average and is coming off a 3 year contract that paid him 9 mill this year. May be a buy low guy with his poor performance the last couple of years. Ryan Madson is 36 and made a strong come-back this season after missing considerable time. Made only $850K and was throwing 94. 2) a good middle reliever who is a more of a unique different look pitcher. Darren O'Day is definitely someone who fits that and could be a good fit. He is 33 and made 4.25 mill this year (last year of a 3 year contract). Not sure where to put Bobby Parnell who is 31. May be a buy low after his injuries. 3) previous closers. Tyler Clippard is just 31, average about 92 mph, and made some big dollars this season at 8.3 mill. Very consistent and hard to hit. Never gives up many base runners. Joakim Soria is 32 and made 7 mill in his last year of a 3 year contract. His average mph was 92. 4) a left reliever would be very helpful. Tony Sipp is 32 and made 2.4 mill in 2015 and his velo is around 91, but has great numbers this last 2 years for hits per 9 innings. Antonio Bastardo is 30 and made 3.1 this season. His average velocity is 92.7. Finally Sean Marshall if healthy may be a good buy low candidate. He made 6.5 mill this year and was injured most of the season. I think Hunter would be reliable, but I like Lowe and even Madson. I love O'Day and would like him targeted for sure. Clippard would be a nice pick-up IMO, and Sipp would fit real nicely in our pen. I hope Dombrowski brings in 2 to 3 guys. These are my guys who intrigue me for 2016. I know velocity isn't close to being everything, but it can be a part of the final decision. How about Lowe for $2 mill, Madson for $1.5 mill, O'Day a 2 year contract for $10 mill, and Tony Sipp a 2 year contract for $7 mill? With those numbers you're floating, it's likely those guys go elsewhere. I would guess O'Day can get more than 2 years and Lowe and Madson can get more $ than those figures? There's going to be a lot of competition for those kinds of guys. I think the Sox will get one or two of them, not necessarily the guys you mentioned, but they will add, and I think they'll get somebody who'll bump Uehara to setup guy at some point. This is cheapest spot to improve the team drastically. I figure that Uehara, Tazawa, Layne, Ross, and Wright are most likely to secure bullpen spots leaving room for two more relievers, one a late inning reliever, and one a middle reliever, and if Kelly does wind up in the rotation or dealt away, he could wind up in the bullpen, too.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 14, 2015 13:17:20 GMT -5
Drew Storen, excellent arm. Good match, closer in waiting. Yeah, he's a good example of buying low. He's been a solid reiever for years, but fell out of favor in DC. I think they'll trade him this winter. I don't think there will be much of a discount for Storen. He has 95 career saves and would've gotten to 40 this year if they hadn't (foolishly) traded for Papelbon. I think there's a real chance that the Nationals deal him but I think several teams will be interested.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 14, 2015 13:23:30 GMT -5
I guess strong hard throwing bullpens are the new Moneyball? Why spend $200 million on one guy likely to underperform his contract at some point or break down or disappoint, when you can spread around the money on much lower cost guys who can take you from the 6th thru the 9th innings? I guess it's the new market efficiency, until it isn't.
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Post by jmei on Oct 14, 2015 13:50:22 GMT -5
I guess strong hard throwing bullpens are the new Moneyball? Why spend $200 million on one guy likely to underperform his contract at some point or break down or disappoint, when you can spread around the money on much lower cost guys who can take you from the 6th thru the 9th innings? I guess it's the new market efficiency, until it isn't. You're conflating having a hard throwing bullpen and spending money on hard throwing bullpen arms in free agency. The former is obviously desirable, but the latter may not be the best way of getting there. My philosophy has been that, with a few exceptions, the bullpen is one of those areas where there are enough relatively fungible arms and performance is variable enough that you really do need to consider value above all else. Maybe that's acquiring Papelbon for cheap because the Nats are desperate to move him and other teams are wary of his reputation. Maybe that's taking a flier on an injury- or performance-related buy low candidate (many of the names mentioned above). Maybe there a team with a highly-paid, highly-skilled reliever who is willing to move him unexpectedly cheaply (think Chapman, Kimbrel, Melancon, Cody Allen). Maybe it's a free agent that the market is undervaluing because of age or lack of velocity (O'Day). Hell, every once in a while it is a stud guy who has a track record of success (think Robertson or Miller). But you have the opportunity to be more creative than to just sign the best free agent out there, which is rarely the best move out there.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 14, 2015 14:14:55 GMT -5
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 15, 2015 10:29:08 GMT -5
I think with a full offseason of work, Barnes can take a big step forward. He definitely has backend of the bullpen potential. Also we'll see how Workman is doing because he could be a solid MRP too. Brian Johnson could see time in the pen too if he isn't traded, and I think out of the pen he could throw 94-96 consistently as a lefty.
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Post by ramireja on Oct 15, 2015 11:28:10 GMT -5
I think with a full offseason of work, Barnes can take a big step forward. He definitely has backend of the bullpen potential. Also we'll see how Workman is doing because he could be a solid MRP too. Brian Johnson could see time in the pen too if he isn't traded, and I think out of the pen he could throw 94-96 consistently as a lefty.I wouldn't assume that at all
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radiohix
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Post by radiohix on Oct 15, 2015 11:38:00 GMT -5
I think that the guy that may have a big impact on the whole BP building dynamic is Pat Light: If he shows up with a better control/command (a big IF I know), this team will be in a much much better position. It's been his first year as a reliever, I believe, in the organization so it's in the realm of possibilities that he'll get better next year and maybe tap into that closer potential.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 15, 2015 11:40:29 GMT -5
I think with a full offseason of work, Barnes can take a big step forward. He definitely has backend of the bullpen potential. Also we'll see how Workman is doing because he could be a solid MRP too. Brian Johnson could see time in the pen too if he isn't traded, and I think out of the pen he could throw 94-96 consistently as a lefty.I wouldn't assume that at all Isn't he 92-94 as a starter? I may be misremembering. Edit: apparently not. My bad there.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 15, 2015 15:01:14 GMT -5
I like Ryan Madson quite a bit. His stuff looked really good during the 2nd half. No idea what it would take, but would think it wouldn't be too bad.
Darren O'Day certainly looks like a sure thing (as much as a reliever can be). What kind of contracts will these guys and Tony Sipp get this off season?
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radiohix
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Post by radiohix on Oct 15, 2015 16:34:08 GMT -5
Darren O'Day looks like a great fit to me mainly because he's as tough as it gets vs RHH (1.93/2.4O FIP/xFIP) and in our division all the good hitters swing from the right side. He could be a real weapon late in a game.
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Post by jmei on Oct 18, 2015 21:21:57 GMT -5
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Post by jrffam05 on Oct 19, 2015 8:35:00 GMT -5
I might be the only one tooting this horn, but I'm still of the belief that Joe Kelly is a reliever.
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