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Post by Nick Rabasco2 on Nov 11, 2015 13:06:27 GMT -5
Really interesting. Basically, WAR might be undervaluing elite relievers. Conclusion: having an elite reliever is a really good thing for a baseball team to have
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 11, 2015 13:09:05 GMT -5
... Red Sox have interest in Joakim Soria. He'd fit the power arm factor Dombrowski is seeking. While he may not be the closer, he'd slide in nicely as a set up guy to take some of the pressure off Taz. Maybe we all need to get off the power pitcher mantra? There are already arms on the team that can bring it at 95+ - Barnes, Kelly, and Hembree to name three. The number of posters doing backflips over those guys could fit in a phone booth... are there any of those around anymore?? As Eric made clear above, it's all about command. With that command and refinement of his secondary stuff, there's a real likelihood that Matt Barnes would be that Power Pitcher© so many are craving. None of these players are, right now, what they will be in the future. It doesn't work that way in a learning environment, and that's what MLB is. I think that sending a clear message to Barnes about his status with the team is a good place to start. He got that memo from Dombrowski, now let's see what happens.
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Post by ray88h66 on Nov 11, 2015 13:14:09 GMT -5
He'd fit the power arm factor Dombrowski is seeking. While he may not be the closer, he'd slide in nicely as a set up guy to take some of the pressure off Taz. Maybe we all need to get off the power pitcher mantra? There are already arms on the team that can bring it at 95+ - Barnes, Kelly, and Hembree to name three. The number of posters doing backflips over those guys could fit in a phone booth... are there any of those around anymore?? As Eric made clear above, it's all about command. With that command and refinement of his secondary stuff, there's a real likelihood that Matt Barnes would be that Power Pitcher© so many are craving. None of these players are, right now, what they will be in the future. It doesn't work that way in a learning environment, and that's what MLB is. I think that sending a clear message to Barnes about his status with the team is a good place to start. He got that memo from Dombrowski, now let's see what happens. This years playoffs show the Sox have fewer 95 plus guys than the playoff teams. Could be a fluke, but I don't think so.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 11, 2015 13:19:35 GMT -5
He'd fit the power arm factor Dombrowski is seeking. While he may not be the closer, he'd slide in nicely as a set up guy to take some of the pressure off Taz. Maybe we all need to get off the power pitcher mantra? There are already arms on the team that can bring it at 95+ - Barnes, Kelly, and Hembree to name three. The number of posters doing backflips over those guys could fit in a phone booth... are there any of those around anymore?? As Eric made clear above, it's all about command. With that command and refinement of his secondary stuff, there's a real likelihood that Matt Barnes would be that Power Pitcher© so many are craving. None of these players are, right now, what they will be in the future. It doesn't work that way in a learning environment, and that's what MLB is. I think that sending a clear message to Barnes about his status with the team is a good place to start. He got that memo from Dombrowski, now let's see what happens. "Power pitcher" is useful, though, in the sense that Dombrowski confirmed that he likes pitchers that throw hard after he was hired. It helps not necessarily to indicate success, but to indicate guys Dombrowski would like.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 11, 2015 13:36:40 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that with a 10 million dollar salary, there is a high chance the Pirates could make a move. He might also cost a little more than Matt Barnes (but not as much as everyone may think). That being said, if I'm the Red Sox, I would not make that trade in a vacuum. Melancon "And The Infinite Sadness" as some of my buddies called him is just a complete risk to come back here. The fans wouldn't like the move and he'd have a pretty short leash with the media imo. The last thing DD would want to do in his first year is copy Ben Cherington. I'd rather take the risk of holding onto Barnes and hope he becomes something similar. We'd have him for a lot longer and cheaper. His value is not high right now and it would be prudent for the FO to ride him out a little longer. Not saying the Sox should necessarily bring back Melancon in a deal, but I wouldn't have a problem with him pitching in a Red Sox uniform again. He got off to a terrible start, Valentine quickly gave up on him, and he pitched well when he got back from the minors. I would hope the Sox wouldn't make a deal or not make a deal based on possible fan backlash, media, etc. That wouldn't make for a good organization. Honestly, who cares what reactionary Johnny from Burger King has to say anyways? It's like the old saying, if you do what the fans want you to do, sooner or later you will be sitting among them as one of the fans. I doubt the Sox will want to give the Pirates what they're looking for, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the pitcher himself back.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 11, 2015 14:03:28 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that with a 10 million dollar salary, there is a high chance the Pirates could make a move. He might also cost a little more than Matt Barnes (but not as much as everyone may think). That being said, if I'm the Red Sox, I would not make that trade in a vacuum. Melancon "And The Infinite Sadness" as some of my buddies called him is just a complete risk to come back here. The fans wouldn't like the move and he'd have a pretty short leash with the media imo. The last thing DD would want to do in his first year is copy Ben Cherington. I'd rather take the risk of holding onto Barnes and hope he becomes something similar. We'd have him for a lot longer and cheaper. His value is not high right now and it would be prudent for the FO to ride him out a little longer. Not saying the Sox should necessarily bring back Melancon in a deal, but I wouldn't have a problem with him pitching in a Red Sox uniform again. He got off to a terrible start, Valentine quickly gave up on him, and he pitched well when he got back from the minors. I would hope the Sox wouldn't make a deal or not make a deal based on possible fan backlash, media, etc. That wouldn't make for a good organization. Honestly, who cares what reactionary Johnny from Burger King has to say anyways? It's like the old saying, if you do what the fans want you to do, sooner or later you will be sitting among them as one of the fans. I doubt the Sox will want to give the Pirates what they're looking for, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the pitcher himself back. Not that it always happens, but players in their walk years (Melancon/Chapman) have more to gain this year by having a quality season. Just thinking.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2015 16:27:43 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm not saying he's a bad pitcher, but it seems like a stretch to characterize him as a power pitcher, especially if (and I've seen this a bunch on these forums, though not specifically from you that I can remember) you don't think Tazawa (and his 93-94 mph fastball) is a power pitcher. Tazawa is a power pitcher in my book
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 11, 2015 16:28:39 GMT -5
I want no part of Melancon
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Post by alec97898 on Nov 11, 2015 16:59:01 GMT -5
Call me crazy, I probably am but: Closer: Clay Buchholtz- Wade Davis developed his cutter by watching game film of Buchholtz. Davis is great. Buchholtz cutter isn't even his best pitch. Plus there would be a much higher likelihood he stays healthy 8th: Uehara- Pitched well last year when healthy, I would go back to the way the sox used him at the beginning of '13 where he was not used for more than an inning or in back to back games to save him. 7th: Tazawa- I know he didn't pitch that well last year but a lot of that came from being placed in the closer spot where he was uncomfortable 6th: Robbie Ross Jr.- Pitched really well at the end of last year
Barnes- Sucked last year but maybe with a full commitment to the bullpen his power arm will translate better to the majors Brandon Workman- Was great in the '13 playoffs, maybe can be more consistent post TJ if he becomes a full time reliever.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 11, 2015 18:05:55 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 11, 2015 18:09:01 GMT -5
The Red Sox should definitely sign somebody who has the nickname of "The Final Boss." I don't even want to hear a scouting report. Sign him now.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 11, 2015 18:46:50 GMT -5
The Red Sox should definitely sign somebody who has the nickname of "The Final Boss." I don't even want to hear a scouting report. Sign him now. ...and the Final Boss throws a Stone Fastball.
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Post by rafael on Nov 11, 2015 18:51:35 GMT -5
That Korean closer is someone I would take a flyer on if my scouts liked him. He will probably be undervalued due to fear that his stuff does not play up in the majors, and he has probably closer upside. Even if he fails, the financial burden would not be big enough to be a major issue going forward.
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Post by dirtywater on Nov 11, 2015 19:50:02 GMT -5
Great nickname. Apparently he is a free agent so he will not require a posting fee. Sounds like he might be a small market team kinda guy but I'd like the Sox to pursue.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 11, 2015 21:21:40 GMT -5
That Korean closer is someone I would take a flyer on if my scouts liked him. He will probably be undervalued due to fear that his stuff does not play up in the majors, and he has probably closer upside. Even if he fails, the financial burden would not be big enough to be a major issue going forward. H/9 jumped way up this year compared to recent years. Strikeouts dropped. 33 years old. This team has questionable arms to throw in the pen, they need some proven track records to add in there. Soria, Kimbrel, Chapman, Giles, O'Day fit the bill. And maybe look into some hard throwers like Jeffress/Sipp/Fields, etc.
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Post by burythehammer on Nov 12, 2015 13:23:16 GMT -5
"Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal 11m11 minutes ago
As expected, #RedSox aggressive on multiple fronts. Chapman believed to be one. Team also could go for setup type to put in front of Uehara."
I've been feeling this one for awhile now. Chapman makes a ton of sense for this team.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 12, 2015 15:46:07 GMT -5
Shocking.... WAR discounts relievers, who would have thought that?
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Post by pedey on Nov 12, 2015 18:03:42 GMT -5
Can we please NOT trade for Aroldis Chapman? The price would be astronomical.
I just don't like it when good prospects or a huge loads of money are exchanged for relief pitchers, because relief pitchers tend to flame out or completely lose effectiveness without warning and almost immediately. ESPECIALLY when the pitcher comes from the NL to the AL.
In addition, how have relief pitchers trades worked out for the Sox in past years? (Anderson/Bagwell, Gagne/Murphy, Bailey/Reddick, Melancon/Lowrie)
I would be much more open to signing some mid-level guys or just filling relief pitcher roles from within or with an insignificant acquisition that wouldn't cost a top prospect. And it seems there are always guys who are signed on minor league contracts that become effective relief pitchers.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 12, 2015 18:29:52 GMT -5
Can we please NOT trade for Aroldis Chapman? The price would be astronomical. I just don't like it when good prospects or a huge loads of money are exchanged for relief pitchers, because relief pitchers tend to flame out or completely lose effectiveness without warning and almost immediately. ESPECIALLY when the pitcher comes from the NL to the AL. In addition, how have relief pitchers trades worked out for the Sox in past years? (Anderson/Bagwell, Gagne/Murphy, Bailey/Reddick, Melancon/Lowrie) I would be much more open to signing some mid-level guys or just filling relief pitcher roles from within or with an insignificant acquisition that wouldn't cost a top prospect. And it seems there are always guys who are signed on minor league contracts that become effective relief pitchers. Chapman is on a 1 year deal, which tempers his price a bit. Reds are also rebuilding which means they'd be more open to taking an A ball prospect (who despite his ceiling) might never make AA ball. Chapman will also return a draft pick after giving up a QO. This isn't some middling reliever coming from the NL to AL. This is a guy who throws 100+ mph who has 15.4K/9 over his career. Would I rather go after Ken giles? Sure. But for a team that has started the clocks on Rodriguez/Bogaerts/Betts, etc. lets start competing now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 12, 2015 21:01:42 GMT -5
"Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal 11m11 minutes ago As expected, #RedSox aggressive on multiple fronts. Chapman believed to be one. Team also could go for setup type to put in front of Uehara." I've been feeling this one for awhile now. Chapman makes a ton of sense for this team. I'm starting to think you're right. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire. The Sox might have Chapman by the weekend. Hope the price isn't much more than Guerra and a good second but expendable piece.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 12, 2015 21:08:44 GMT -5
I'm all for Chapman if the cost is anything outside the top 5 prospects from this site's list, even if it requires something from the big club (not that I really know what that would be, Miley?)
If they get Chapman, they either get a stud reliever for a year and a draft pick, a stud reliever for half a year and trade him at the deadline, or they get him for this year and sign him to an extension and have the obvious back end of the bullpen locked up. There are only a handful of relievers you should "pay" for, he is undoubtedly one of them.
Also, I think they should try to pursue both Chapman and Giles. They need multiple pieces. Add those two guys and the pen goes from a weakness to a strength immediately
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Post by geostorm on Nov 12, 2015 21:15:29 GMT -5
speaking of "power arms", appreciate thoughts on ATL arms Vizcaino and Withrow, both of whom have significant injury history...or youngster Mike Foltynewicz...
...they seem awfully thin in the OF, w/ reports of them kicking Olivera to the OF, and including C Maybin, Swisher, and Bourn, all of whom are on contracts where '16 is final year plus an option for 2017, and all of whom ATL would likely be happy to offload...they looking to open their new stadium in 2017, and sure their pointing to readying their rebuild for that...
...in the minors, prospect Mallex Smith seems closest to making the big league roster.
What might be considered a reasonable "ask" for each of them, and not necessarily limited to Sox OF inventory?
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,962
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Post by jimoh on Nov 12, 2015 21:40:18 GMT -5
speaking of "power arms", appreciate thoughts on ATL arms Vizcaino and Withrow, both of whom have significant injury history...or youngster Mike Foltynewicz...
...they seem awfully thin in the OF, w/ reports of them kicking Olivera to the OF, and including C Maybin, Swisher, and Bourn, all of whom are on contracts where '16 is final year plus an option for 2017, and all of whom ATL would likely be happy to offload...they looking to open their new stadium in 2017, and sure their pointing to readying their rebuild for that...
...in the minors, prospect Mallex Smith seems closest to making the big league roster.
What might be considered a reasonable "ask" for each of them, and not necessarily limited to Sox OF inventory?
This local story suggests they have *extra* OF, although many of them are flawed www.talkingchop.com/2015/11/9/9696752/mlb-hot-stove-rumors-braves-nick-swisher-cameron-maybin-michael-bourn
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 13, 2015 10:14:27 GMT -5
speaking of "power arms", appreciate thoughts on ATL arms Vizcaino and Withrow, both of whom have significant injury history...or youngster Mike Foltynewicz...
...they seem awfully thin in the OF, w/ reports of them kicking Olivera to the OF, and including C Maybin, Swisher, and Bourn, all of whom are on contracts where '16 is final year plus an option for 2017, and all of whom ATL would likely be happy to offload...they looking to open their new stadium in 2017, and sure their pointing to readying their rebuild for that...
...in the minors, prospect Mallex Smith seems closest to making the big league roster.
What might be considered a reasonable "ask" for each of them, and not necessarily limited to Sox OF inventory?
This local story suggests they have *extra* OF, although many of them are flawed www.talkingchop.com/2015/11/9/9696752/mlb-hot-stove-rumors-braves-nick-swisher-cameron-maybin-michael-bournI was surprised they traded Andrelton Simmons. I thought he & Freeman were lynchpins for their future.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,679
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Post by nomar on Nov 13, 2015 10:25:00 GMT -5
I was surprised they traded Andrelton Simmons. I thought he & Freeman were lynchpins for their future. The defensive prime comes around Simmons' current age (26), and once his glove starts declining he's going to be worthless. The haul was solid for him still. They got an average SS and hopefully a starting pitcher (or maybe two) for 2017, and have less holes as a result. I don't hate it
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