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The Red Sox will retire Wade Boggs’ number on May 26
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 30, 2015 16:42:22 GMT -5
A slight detour here, but thinking about the guys with retired numbers ... I had no idea Bobby Doerr was still alive. Dude's 97 years old, played in the 30s! He's the oldest living HOFer and I believe he's the only guy alive that played major league baseball in the 1930s - I believe he debuted in 1936 so it's not like he just barely played in the 30s.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,809
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Post by wcp3 on Dec 31, 2015 9:46:25 GMT -5
Right? Boggs was a terrible teammate... who earned millions of dollars for everyone who ever hit behind him. Right... can't wait to hear all those accolades and thanks from all the teammates Boggs earned those millions of dollars for. Don't hold your breath. I understand disagreeing with the decision, but it's really strange how angry you are about this.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 31, 2015 10:08:49 GMT -5
Boggs seems to be a classic case of placing the blame for a team's failures on it's best player.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 31, 2015 21:08:25 GMT -5
Again, bolting for the Yankees and parading around Yankee Stadium on a horse is more of the problem with Boggs then not winning a WS in Boston. The way Clemens has conducted himself both publicly and as a Yankee, and I would strongly oppose retire his number. He was beaning Red Sox and starting brawls left and right and im not sure how people forget that, its not exactly ancient history.
No Hall of Fame, no number retired. Period. Its less meaningful when you retire every Tom Dick and Harry.
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Post by jmei on Dec 31, 2015 22:07:18 GMT -5
Hard to say he bolted for the Yankees when it seems like he wanted to re-sign in Boston but they didn't offer him a contract.
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Post by blizzards39 on Dec 31, 2015 22:14:32 GMT -5
Just looking at Boggs stats and 2 things pop out 1- his huge WAR numbers 2- his huge BAPIP numbers (except for his walk year in 1992)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 31, 2015 22:46:37 GMT -5
Again, bolting for the Yankees and parading around Yankee Stadium on a horse is more of the problem with Boggs then not winning a WS in Boston. The way Clemens has conducted himself both publicly and as a Yankee, and I would strongly oppose retire his number. He was beaning Red Sox and starting brawls left and right and im not sure how people forget that, its not exactly ancient history. No Hall of Fame, no number retired. Period. Its less meaningful when you retire every Tom Dick and Harry. He didn't bolt for the Yankees (he certainly didn't bolt the Sox any more than Pedro bolted the Sox for the Mets). The Red Sox didn't want him as he was coming off his worst year of his career. The Yankees were willing to wager that he'd bounce back and be productive. The Sox were not willing to wager that and were quite eager to turn 3b over to Scott Cooper. As far as his celebrating at Yankee Stadium, why in the world does that matter? After coming so damn close to winning the Series and losing in 1986, why in the world wouldn't he celebrate winning the Series in 1996? Is he supposed to be in mourning after winning the World Series? I don't give a damn if he celebrated winning the Series with NY. I remember him crying his eyes out when the Sox lost ten years earlier. I would say his emotions merely make him a normal person. If you played for the Sox, and they didn't want you, went to another team and won the Series you have never won before, you'd be celebrating your butt off, too. As far as Clemens goes, the Red Sox should retire his number. In Red Sox pitching history there is Pedro, Clemens, Cy Young, and everybody else. The man won 3 Cy Youngs (should have been 4 but the Cy Young voters were too enamored with Bob Welch's 27 wins in 1990) with the Sox, is the all-time win leader - tied with Cy Young, had two 20 strike out games, and pitched for the Sox for 12 seasons. Why should I care that he went to the Yankees? I think you are way too obsessed with the Yankees. I hate the Yankees more than any other team, too, but at the end of the day, they're just 1 of 29 other major league teams that players can play for, and it doesn't detract one iota from what the player accomplished for the Red Sox. Retiring a number is a way to celebrate extreme accomplishments from the team's greatest players in their history. Boggs and Clemens are hardly some Tom, Dick, and Harry. They are easily among the greatest players to ever play for the Red Sox.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 31, 2015 22:50:29 GMT -5
Just looking at Boggs stats and 2 things pop out 1- his huge WAR numbers 2- his huge BAPIP numbers (except for his walk year in 1992) Can't prove it, but he seemed to be able to control where he hit the ball. The guy used to foul pitches off on purpose and he hardly ever popped up to the infield. I don't think his BAPIP numbers were totally random. He was a magician with the bat. From 1982 - 1988 he was as good as any hitter I've ever seen - obviously I never saw Ted Williams, who was the greatest of all-time along with Babe Ruth. Boggs, as he hit his 30s, wasn't what he had been. If you combined Wade Boggs' 20s and Tony Gywnn's 30s, you'd have a guy with a lifetime average around .350, only behind Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and Joe Jackson, and those guys never played in the modern era. That's how remarkable Boggs and Gwynn were, with the other difference being that Boggs would take walks and Gwynn constantly put the ball in play.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 1, 2016 10:48:58 GMT -5
Its hard to compare Pedro to Clemens when one took PEDs and the other didn't. Who knows what Pedro's career would've looked like if he had taken PEDs to get help him with his injuries, or what Clemens would've looked like without them.
I disagree with the decision but I don't mind Boggs too much... Clemens would certainly bother me if they ever retired his number.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 1, 2016 10:52:19 GMT -5
Its hard to compare Pedro to Clemens when one took PEDs and the other didn't. Who knows what Pedro's career would've looked like if he had taken PEDs to get help him with his injuries, or what Clemens would've looked like without them. I disagree with the decision but I don't mind Boggs too much... Clemens would certainly bother me if they ever retired his number. I get the PEDs concern, and maybe I'm being a bit naive, but if Clemens was doing PEDs while on the Red Sox, I believe it would have been around 1995 and/or 1996. I believe the time from 1984 - 1994 that Clemens wasn't doing PEDs. I could be wrong. It would seem to me he'd do it once he got hurt like he did in 1995. Maybe he didn't start until he was in Toronto in 1997. I'll never really know. But I do think for his best years with Boston, he was clean. I can understand if you think otherwise.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 1, 2016 11:01:15 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 1, 2016 12:15:52 GMT -5
Again, bolting for the Yankees and parading around Yankee Stadium on a horse is more of the problem with Boggs then not winning a WS in Boston. The way Clemens has conducted himself both publicly and as a Yankee, and I would strongly oppose retire his number. He was beaning Red Sox and starting brawls left and right and im not sure how people forget that, its not exactly ancient history. No Hall of Fame, no number retired. Period. Its less meaningful when you retire every Tom Dick and Harry. This has come up several times and it is legit baffling to me. Would it have made a difference if he hadn't been riding a horse? Do people have something against horses? More seriously, do people really have a problem with him celebrating a World Series victory?
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 1, 2016 12:31:45 GMT -5
Again, bolting for the Yankees and parading around Yankee Stadium on a horse is more of the problem with Boggs then not winning a WS in Boston. The way Clemens has conducted himself both publicly and as a Yankee, and I would strongly oppose retire his number. He was beaning Red Sox and starting brawls left and right and im not sure how people forget that, its not exactly ancient history. No Hall of Fame, no number retired. Period. Its less meaningful when you retire every Tom Dick and Harry. Honest question. Do you dislike the Yankees more than you like the Red Sox? Because you seem totally willing to write off his extensive accomplishments with Boston because a)he had the impudence to sign with the Yankees when the Red Sox no longer wanted, b) Bob Watson was a better GM than Gorman or Duquette, and c) Boggs celebrated when his team won. And whatever, fandom is pretty irrational at its core. But don't try to rationalize it.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 1, 2016 13:55:21 GMT -5
I was more pissed about Clemens when he said he'd never play for the Yankees and started taking PEDs and became even more dominant than he was with us. But I got over it. Boggs never said that.
There really is only one place to lay blame, and that's on Red Sox management/ownership for not keeping them. Both would have been happy to stay. I am so grateful for John Henry now and anyone who isn't must have a very bad memory or isn't old enough to remember the crap that we used to go through. Imagine Papi walking at age 32 and that's what it used to be like for Red Sox fans.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jan 1, 2016 14:26:08 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF? Undoubtably he will. His clutch and playoff numbers are second to none. And with 500hr. Might take a couple try's but it wouldn't be an issue.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 1, 2016 14:33:11 GMT -5
I've never understood the "he went to the Yankees hate" Johnny D got booed after playing hurt for years for the SOX. Yanks gave him a better offer and he took it. He cut his hair and shaved to go bank. Good for him. Yanks can be hated but I'd take the best deal for my family every time. Boggs and Rocket are jerks, but not because they helped the Yanks get rings.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 1, 2016 14:43:01 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF? Undoubtably he will. His clutch and playoff numbers are second to none. And with 500hr. Might take a couple try's but it wouldn't be an issue. Until Edgar Martinez gets in and anyone with any PED allegations gets in, Papi probably won't make the HOF.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 1, 2016 14:45:26 GMT -5
Undoubtably he will. His clutch and playoff numbers are second to none. And with 500hr. Might take a couple try's but it wouldn't be an issue. Until Edgar Martinez gets in and anyone with any PED allegations gets in, Papi probably won't make the HOF. I agree.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 1, 2016 16:49:38 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF? Had a question for you re: Clemens. I don't know how old you are - did you get to watch Clemens in his prime with the Red Sox? If you were born after 1980, particularly after 1985, you didn't really see how great Clemens was with the Sox. Your image of him would be of a steroid-fueled Yankee, but I don't think that takes away necessarily from what he accomplished in Boston. It's kind of like thinking of Elvis as a strung-out bloated Vegas singer and ignoring how great he was in his heyday. I followed Clemens from the time he was in New Britain in 1983 and even at 11 years old I could see how amazing he was. He was easily one of the greatest pitchers the Sox ever had in their franchise at the time of his heyday, if not the best. He was very overpowering, and I think comparable to Pedro. I believe Pedro was better. If Clemens was overpowering I would think Pedro was just flat out dominant - he could overpower you, sure, but Pedro was truly an artist, and he definitely got inside batters' heads, not to mention got the inside of the plate, too. I think when Pedro was at his best, batters were pretty much resigned to an 0-3 night. Pedro had the charisma Clemens never had, but that doesn't take away from the brilliance that Clemens' career was during his Boston days. Roger was basically the franchise during the second half of the 1980s and first half of the 1990s. I do think his number should be retired and if you're old enough to have watched him, whether your image of him is as a roided up Yankee or a young Red Sox pitcher capable of striking out 20 batters (which nobody had ever done before). My early fandom came in the early 1980s when winning 15 games seemed like an extraordinary feat. I had never seen the Sox have a true ace before - I was too young for Tiant and even Eck's 1978 season, but Clemens was doing things I'd never seen a Sox pitcher do before, and was doing things that few other pitchers had ever done before - like fanning 20, compiling an ERA under 2 in a season, regularly winning 20 games and striking out 200 batters/season. Between Pedro and Roger, I certainly enjoyed Pedro more - like I said the cunning artistry that Pedro displayed, and his charisma and sheer dominance in a roided up DH league were staggering, but Clemens was pretty special, too in his day.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 1, 2016 16:55:33 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF? I think the Sox are waiting for Clemens to be elected to the HOF before having #21 officially retired, but at some point, if he doesn't get in, they're going to say the heck with it, just retire it anyways. And I am concerned it could be the same way with Ortiz. Maybe I'm just being a fanboy, but I'm not convinced Ortiz took anything more than supplements that were legal at the time to show up with a positive on the test. He hasn't had any positives since then, and we're talking 2004 and beyond, the overwhelming majority of his career. Of course there are ways to not get a positive and still be "guilty" but at this point that would apply to everybody in the game, so I don't see any justification for not voting for Ortiz for the HOF. But with that 2003 allegation against him and his career as a DH, it could take quite awhile for Ortiz to get into the HOF, and he might not. At some point, the Sox are going to say screw it and retire his number. They'll probably eventually make their own statues of Pedro and Ortiz, too. I believe it is statues, not necessarily retired numbers, that are more the Mount Rushmores of every team. Ortiz's #34 will be retired and I do think there will be a statue of him outside of Fenway (and Pedro, too), but the question is how long will the Sox wait - if the HOF voters don't cooperate, the Sox will still wind up retiring his number - how in the world do you not?
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 1, 2016 17:40:17 GMT -5
Undoubtably he will. His clutch and playoff numbers are second to none. And with 500hr. Might take a couple try's but it wouldn't be an issue. Until Edgar Martinez gets in and anyone with any PED allegations gets in, Papi probably won't make the HOF. Early numbers seem to show Edgar has picked up quite a few votes this year. No proof of this, but I wonder if some of that is voters who are planning to vote for Ortiz realizing that Martinez deserves similar support.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 1, 2016 19:16:16 GMT -5
I respect if you disagree with me but there are very valid reasons not to retire Clemens number. I think the number retirement should be reserved for guys like Rice and Pedro. Will be interesting to see if Ortiz gets it... Does he ever get in the HoF? I think the Sox are waiting for Clemens to be elected to the HOF before having #21 officially retired, but at some point, if he doesn't get in, they're going to say the heck with it, just retire it anyways. And I am concerned it could be the same way with Ortiz. Maybe I'm just being a fanboy, but I'm not convinced Ortiz took anything more than supplements that were legal at the time to show up with a positive on the test. He hasn't had any positives since then, and we're talking 2004 and beyond, the overwhelming majority of his career. Of course there are ways to not get a positive and still be "guilty" but at this point that would apply to everybody in the game, so I don't see any justification for not voting for Ortiz for the HOF. But with that 2003 allegation against him and his career as a DH, it could take quite awhile for Ortiz to get into the HOF, and he might not. At some point, the Sox are going to say screw it and retire his number. They'll probably eventually make their own statues of Pedro and Ortiz, too. I believe it is statues, not necessarily retired numbers, that are more the Mount Rushmores of every team. Ortiz's #34 will be retired and I do think there will be a statue of him outside of Fenway (and Pedro, too), but the question is how long will the Sox wait - if the HOF voters don't cooperate, the Sox will still wind up retiring his number - how in the world do you not? Depending on the playoff situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they retire #34 for the home finale.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 2, 2016 10:18:20 GMT -5
Again, bolting for the Yankees and parading around Yankee Stadium on a horse is more of the problem with Boggs then not winning a WS in Boston. The way Clemens has conducted himself both publicly and as a Yankee, and I would strongly oppose retire his number. He was beaning Red Sox and starting brawls left and right and im not sure how people forget that, its not exactly ancient history. No Hall of Fame, no number retired. Period. Its less meaningful when you retire every Tom Dick and Harry. Honest question. Do you dislike the Yankees more than you like the Red Sox? Because you seem totally willing to write off his extensive accomplishments with Boston because a)he had the impudence to sign with the Yankees when the Red Sox no longer wanted, b) Bob Watson was a better GM than Gorman or Duquette, and c) Boggs celebrated when his team won. And whatever, fandom is pretty irrational at its core. But don't try to rationalize it. No, I don't even hate the Yankees as much as I used to but Clemens is probably my least favorite athlete ive ever seen. Doesn't make sense to retire his number and it just makes it look like the Sox don't have enough of their own legends to retire. As I said before, I don't see the need to retire the numbers of players unless they were really special. Its not like Boggs was some great person or anything either that just so happened to go to the Yankees and win. That narrative is just not true.
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Post by jmei on Jan 2, 2016 10:53:38 GMT -5
It's hard to argue that Boggs wasn't a special player on the field, and any indictments of his character are more secondhand mild criticisms of his personality (i.e., that he was selfish) rather than instances of actually scummy behavior (PED use, domestic violence, drug/alcohol abuse, etc). I don't think having a reputation as a jerk should keep you out of the Hall of Fame or having your number retired if you were objectively one of the best players in Red Sox history.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 2, 2016 17:02:18 GMT -5
Honest question. Do you dislike the Yankees more than you like the Red Sox? Because you seem totally willing to write off his extensive accomplishments with Boston because a)he had the impudence to sign with the Yankees when the Red Sox no longer wanted, b) Bob Watson was a better GM than Gorman or Duquette, and c) Boggs celebrated when his team won. And whatever, fandom is pretty irrational at its core. But don't try to rationalize it. No, I don't even hate the Yankees as much as I used to but Clemens is probably my least favorite athlete ive ever seen. Doesn't make sense to retire his number and it just makes it look like the Sox don't have enough of their own legends to retire. As I said before, I don't see the need to retire the numbers of players unless they were really special. Its not like Boggs was some great person or anything either that just so happened to go to the Yankees and win. That narrative is just not true. Did you see Clemens in his Red Sox heyday? If so, were you a fan of his then? If you followed the 1986 team closely it would be hard to imagine not being a fan of his at that time.
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