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Post by James Dunne on Jan 6, 2016 19:07:23 GMT -5
Yeah, Edmonds falling off the ballot is a shame. For all of the BS the old-school "traditionalists" love to spout about building a team around pitching and defense and it being the right way to win, they certainly don't seem to vote that way when it comes to the Hall of Fame. Players who play key defensive positions seem to be held to the same offensive standards as corner players and it is insane.
EDIT: Billy Wagner getting enough to stay on isn't completely insane to me. He was arguably better than Trevor Hoffman and I'm not sure how we should handle WPA (Wagner is 34th among pitchers), or Situational Wins (59th) in Hall of Fame voting. My instinct would be to leave both him and Hoffman off (particularly with such a stacked ballot), but I think they deserve a long look.
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Post by jmei on Jan 6, 2016 19:29:40 GMT -5
Yeah, wasn't meant to be a knock on Wagner, who is one of the best relievers in history. But no way he is four times more Hall-worthy than Edmonds.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jan 6, 2016 19:40:18 GMT -5
Congrats to Griffey and Piazza. I may be wrong, but I think Piazza is the first "suspected ped guy" that got in. I know some suspect Ricky, but , that was then this is now. This old guy is ready to move on. If it's close leave the ped guys out. Bonds and Rocket were in before they were out. And they were not close, they were sure fire. The saddest part is the ped era has killed the hall. Attendance has been dropping for years. Not likely to change, and that is sad. I've been to the hall several times but will never go again. For the good of the game I hope things get better.
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Post by 29sonski on Jan 6, 2016 19:48:00 GMT -5
Looks like Bagwell and Raines may get the Hall call in 2017 ... and Schilling possibly in 2018. Can't be happier for Junior ... and happy that Piazza finally got over the "stigma" barrier.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 6, 2016 19:56:06 GMT -5
Sad that Jim Edmonds didn't get the 5% necessary to stay on the ballot-- call it Dwight Evans (or Kenny Lofton) syndrome. Billy Wagner got four times as many votes as he did and Nomar only got three fewer votes. Also, the two David Eckstein votes made me laugh. The way it's been going, it will be easy to build an amazing team from the players who've gotten the shaft. The outfield is nearing completion, what with Evans, now Edmonds, and maybe even Raines.
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Post by terriblehondo on Jan 6, 2016 20:57:26 GMT -5
Raines and Trammell should have been in before Piazza.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 6, 2016 21:47:04 GMT -5
According to the Ryan Thibs spreadsheet, Mussina and Edgar Martinez are looking like the big gainers here. So voters deserve some credit for that. Raines looks like he might really get screwed by the shortened eligibility period. He's gaining a ton of votes and looks like he'll get easily into the 60% range. And since nobody is going to get in from the Veteran's Committee ever again apparently, that really stinks. Eric, one question - was Todd Helton in your study or was his career too late for him to be considered a contemporary? I did a study a few years back that had him fifth among 1B of his era - behind Thomas, Bagwell, Thome, and Palmeiro (in that order) but ahead of McGwire, Giambi, McGriff, and Olerud. I have him as a Hall of Famer but I think it's more likely he gets bounced from the ballot. I didn't include the players who aren't eligible yet. Here are the ones who are coming up, or who are active and have already crossed the line: Name HW Year Alex Rodriguez 105.3 Act Albert Pujols 91.5 Act Chipper Jones 77.6 2018 Adrian Beltre 75.2 Act Chase Utley 69.5 Act Scott Rolen 68.6 2018 Andruw Jones 68.4 2018 Derek Jeter 67.6 2020 Jim Thome 66.5 2018 Miguel Cabrera 66.0 Act Carlos Beltran 65.7 Act Todd Helton 65.3 2019 Ivan Rodriguez 64.9 2017 Manny Ramirez 64.0 2017 Vlad Guerrero 60.8 2017 Ichiro Suzuki 60.4 Act Bobby Abreu 60.4 2018 David Wright 59.2 Act Jason Giambi 59.1 2020
It'll be "fun" seeing how Jeter's initial vote total compares to Beltre, Utley, Rolen, and Andruw Jones.Papi is right at the line with a good 2016 and, more importantly, a big correction to the positional adjustment for DH. Maybe it'll be more fun than we know right now! www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/derek-jeter-trainer-linked-alleged-manning-hgh-supplier-article-1.2486859
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 6, 2016 22:21:20 GMT -5
Sad that Jim Edmonds didn't get the 5% necessary to stay on the ballot-- call it Dwight Evans (or Kenny Lofton) syndrome. Billy Wagner got four times as many votes as he did and Nomar only got three fewer votes. Also, the two David Eckstein votes made me laugh. The way it's been going, it will be easy to build an amazing team from the players who've gotten the shaft. The outfield is nearing completion, what with Evans, now Edmonds, and maybe even Raines. Man, you made me do it. A shaft team, versus a BBWA team from the post-expansion era (except for Nellie Fox who was just before), and a pathetic Veteran's Committee team from the old days (except Mazeroski. If you want to go by eras, just swap him and Fox!). I excluded from the shaft team anyone on the ballot with a good shot, plus the PED creations, and moved Edgar to the shaft bench since he has a 50-50-ish chance. That bench is just partial -- you could keep going with Bill Freehan, John Olerud, Sal Bando, Reggie Smith, and so on. Fox is on the BBWA team even though he was technically a Veterans Committee selection -- but the BBWA got him up to 74.7% of the vote. Grich got 2.5% on his first try and hasn't been mentioned since. If you think that the BBWA incompetence is a modern thing ... Arky Vaughan was left off the preliminary ballot when first eligible. Catcher is the only position where no one borderline has been elected from the post-expansion era, and, I think, by the BBWA. In fact, I had to fill that spot on their team with Torre, who was elected as a manager and otherwise would have been on the Shaft team! Simmons is a clear HOFer, though. Pos Shaft Pk Car BBWA (except *) Pk Car Vet Committee Pk Car C Ted Simmons 5.5 52.2 *Joe Torre 5.9 59.9 Ray Schalk 3.1 25.5 1B Keith Hernandez 6.3 59.8 Orlando Cepeda 5.3 50.2 High Poc. Kelly 4.0 27.1 2B Bobby Grich 6.8 70.1 *Nellie Fox 5.6 47.1 Bill Mazeroski 3.6 33.5 3B Graig Nettles 6.4 66.9 Tony Perez 5.9 56.4 Fred Lindstrom 4.4 29.5 SS Alan Trammel 6.6 67.0 Luis Aparicio 4.6 52.4 Rab. Maranville 4.5 42.6 LF Jim Edmonds 6.5 62.3 Lou Brock 4.8 44.2 Chick Hafey 4.4 31.4 CF Kenny Lofton 6.3 65.2 Kirby Puckett 5.6 47.9 Earl Combs 5.2 41.9 RF Larry Walker 6.7 70.8 Dave Winfield 5.5 62.0 Ross Youngs 5.0 34.2 DH Dick Allen 7.3 60.0 Jim Rice 6.1 49.0 Jim Bottomley 4.7 36.6 C Thurman Munson 5.6 43.4 IF Lou Whitaker 5.5 71.5 IF Buddy Bell 6.1 63.8 OF Dwight Evans 5.6 65.9 DH? Edgar Martinez 6.3 67.0
Yeah, the Shaft team wipes the floor with the BBWA team. The Shaft bench would in fact be competitive.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 6, 2016 22:37:21 GMT -5
I wish they could kick out the guys who have absolutely no business being in. It cheapens the whole thing.
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