SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Swihart vs. Vazquez vs. Hanigan
|
Post by pedey on Apr 24, 2016 19:36:59 GMT -5
With Swihart in AAA learning left field, what is his future role with the red Sox? I have always been a swihart fan and I'd like to see him back as the starting catcher. Not sure about Vazquez's bat, and it hasn't looked like he has fixed the pitching staff. Swihart has been projected to hit somewhere around .280 and maybe 15 homeruns. Which is great for a catcher, but not as great for a left fielder. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) swihart has a very good arm as well as Vazquez, he just isn't as good at calling a game. Is that why he is in pawtucket? Are we already closing the door on swihart ever catching? His bat is almost elite at catcher, and his value diminishes anywhere else. To me, the ability to call a game comes with experience, and he seemed to do well last year with the pitching staff. He didn't get much of a chance this year.
|
|
|
Post by ray88h66 on Apr 24, 2016 19:42:46 GMT -5
With Swihart in AAA learning left field, what is his future role with the red Sox? I have always been a swihart fan and I'd like to see him back as the starting catcher. Not sure about Vazquez's bat, and it hasn't looked like he has fixed the pitching staff. Swihart has been projected to hit somewhere around .280 and maybe 15 homeruns. Which is great for a catcher, but not as great for a left fielder. As far as I am aware (correct me if I'm wrong) swihart has a very good arm as well as Vazquez, he just isn't as good at calling a game. Is that why he is in pawtucket? Are we already closing the door on swihart ever catching? His bat is almost elite at catcher, and his value diminishes anywhere else. To me, the ability to call a game comes with experience, and he seemed to do well last year with the pitching staff. He didn't get much of a chance this year. I'm a big Swihart guy also. But to be fair to C. V., if Johnny Bench and Carlton Fisk were the catchers this starting staff wouldn't be good.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 24, 2016 23:51:01 GMT -5
Game calling is the most over-rated talking point in baseball. It drives me nuts. Yes, Joe Kelly was so much better when Hanigan caught for him and he threw 5 walks in 5 innings and was one base hit away from disaster. Vazquez wasn't able to save Owens or Buchholz. Porcello has been a pretty solid number 4 throughout his starts.
I fully believe in the notion that Vazquez's pitch framing alone is worth about 2 wins, but that's not game calling.
Since Swihart's value is more with the bat and he can play an adequate catcher, would it not make more sense to have him put more focus on his hitting and just DH most days in AAA and just work on game management skills during drills?
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 25, 2016 1:01:26 GMT -5
Looking at the LONG run...
I would normally take the position that having two top catchers would be a waste of resources unless the team was really deep. The emergence of Shaw at 3B has me leaning towards the thought that we might just be that deep at some near point down the road. Although several people thought Shaw was the best option at third, I seriously doubt if any of us would have thought he'd be this good. (I'm talking all around talent not SSS stats).
Shaw's emergence pretty much solidifies the infield if Sam Travis is ready next year to take Ortiz' slot ( I don't mean he will be that good, just good enough to occupy the slot). If Moncada and Benintendi continue to roll along, we might just be deep enough to carry an epic catching tandem because Moncada is now looking more and more like a future outfielder.
|
|
|
Post by mgoetze on Apr 25, 2016 4:48:52 GMT -5
With Swihart in AAA learning left field, what is his future role with the red Sox? Swihart learning LF is just an admission by the front office that they ****ed up this offseason by signing a RHH platoon OF rather than a LHH platoon OF. Clearly Swihart's value will be maximized long-term by staying at catcher. With the Red Sox, though? Well, the Red Sox already have a starting catcher... That's not really all there is to it, though. Number one thing Swihart needs work on is receiving the ball, which means both pitch framing (massively valuable) as well as avoided passed balls. Swihart may have good arm strength also, but Vazquez is great because he not only has good arm strength but is also really really good at leveraging that arm strength with his amazing awareness (have you ever seen a catcher make so many pickoffs at 1B/3B after receiving the pitch?) As for game calling, choosing which pitches to throw in which count is one thing. Making the pitchers feel comfortable, going out to talk to them at the right times and saying the right things to get them focused, is another, and the latter may not be a skill you can learn but just a natural talent. Anyway, I'm as upset as anyone that they're sticking Swihart in LF - he needs to work on refining his catching and become a great catcher. In my personal vision of the future, Swihart is just slightly less great than Vazquez - and gets us a king's ransom in a trade at some point.
|
|
|
Post by sox fan in nc on Apr 25, 2016 9:14:40 GMT -5
I remember a few years ago the Braves thought Christian Bethancourt was their Swihart, untouchable, ect. Then he fell off a cliff. I believe they need to raise (BS) his value at the C position in AAA so we can get a #2 (w/other pieces involved of course). Even Yadier took a few years to get his bat to catch up to his glove. I believe CV has more of a "sure thing" value to the team.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,713
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Apr 25, 2016 9:35:48 GMT -5
I remember a few years ago the Braves thought Christian Bethancourt was their Swihart, untouchable, ect. Then he fell off a cliff. I believe they need to raise (BS) his value at the C position in AAA so we can get a #2 (w/other pieces involved of course). Even Yadier took a few years to get his bat to catch up to his glove. I believe CV has more of a "sure thing" value to the team. Bethancourt was a not bat plus plus glove C prospect and Swihart was an offensive minded catcher. Pretty different.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 25, 2016 10:28:16 GMT -5
I remember a few years ago the Braves thought Christian Bethancourt was their Swihart, untouchable, ect. Then he fell off a cliff. I believe they need to raise (BS) his value at the C position in AAA so we can get a #2 (w/other pieces involved of course). Even Yadier took a few years to get his bat to catch up to his glove. I believe CV has more of a "sure thing" value to the team. Bethancourt was a not bat plus plus glove C prospect and Swihart was an offensive minded catcher. Pretty different. We remember it differently. I recall Bethencourt was considered above average from both sides but not plus at either. He was also considered high floor. You basic close to sure thing above average solid starting catcher.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,713
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Apr 25, 2016 10:51:44 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by mandelbro on Apr 25, 2016 11:05:07 GMT -5
Swihart learning LF is just an admission by the front office that they ****ed up this offseason by signing a RHH platoon OF rather than a LHH platoon OF. But the team's approach to the OF looks like it's playing out well on the field. LF has been a position of strength so far for the team. CF and RF are manned by ascending players. And we have depth so the team's outfield production shouldn't completely die if someone gets hurt. This is looking like the best OF the Red Sox have had since 2013.
|
|
|
Post by mgoetze on Apr 25, 2016 11:19:51 GMT -5
Swihart learning LF is just an admission by the front office that they ****ed up this offseason by signing a RHH platoon OF rather than a LHH platoon OF. But the team's approach to the OF looks like it's playing out well on the field. LF has been a position of strength so far for the team. CF and RF are manned by ascending players. And we have depth so the team's outfield production shouldn't completely die if someone gets hurt. This is looking like the best OF the Red Sox have had since 2013. Yes, because they have Brock Holt playing LF, which is fine as long as his bat is hot and he's not needed for infield depth. But already the lack of a LHH OFer is hurting the team big-time in pinch hitting situations. Just look over the gameday threads to see how often someone has remarked, "well, would be great to pinch-hit here but, oh, there's no good LHH available anyway, screw it". As for depth if someone gets hurt... uh, what? Are you talking about Bryce Brentz or something?
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,914
Member is Online
|
Post by ericmvan on Apr 25, 2016 12:22:52 GMT -5
Swihart learning LF is just an admission by the front office that they ****ed up this offseason by signing a RHH platoon OF rather than a LHH platoon OF. But the team's approach to the OF looks like it's playing out well on the field. LF has been a position of strength so far for the team. CF and RF are manned by ascending players. And we have depth so the team's outfield production shouldn't completely die if someone gets hurt. This is looking like the best OF the Red Sox have had since 2013. To add to mgoetze's response, signing Young made some sense if and only if they were committed to giving Castillo a significant MLB trial, which, when we took a poll, was the consensus smart thing to do. The idea being that, with Young as the 4th OFer, if you felt you needed a LF upgrade, you could trade for a LHB to platoon with Young and option Castillo. But if you were unsure about Castillo, it made more sense to add a LH bat who could get significant PT against the righties you thought Castillo couldn't hit. With both Holt and Shaw in the starting lineup, the bench really does need a LHB. Keeping Murphy and optioning Castillo to begin with would have made more sense than (WTF?) optioning Castillo after barely playing him and filling that bench spot with Rutledge.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,914
Member is Online
|
Post by ericmvan on Jul 13, 2016 23:33:57 GMT -5
If CV is not recalled before July 25 or 26, they'll burn his last option and he'll have to be on the roster all of next year. Assuming Sandy Leon is for real at least as a backup, this will greatly limit their versatility with Swihart, who seems to be unlikely to be traded after his shortened season.
Meanwhile, look at Hanigan and Vazquez's bWAR+framing WAR per 1080 innings (120 games) caught, 2014 - 2016:
Hanigan: 3.4, 1.7, -4.9. Vazquez: 6.2, ---, 0.2.
Unweighted by years, Vazquez is 3.3 versus Hanigan's 1.5. Weighted 3-2-1 by years (and innings), he has a 2.7 to 0.4 edge. There's no question CV is better than Hanigan, so dealing Hanigan for a C- prospect to a team who needs catching help both improves the team and massively increases your 2017 Swihart / Vazquez roster flexibility. The only cost is depth; you run the risk of having Dan Butler be the backup. I'll take that gamble, since he may well be as good as Hanigan anyway.
Meanwhile, look at Leon's full WAR rate:
-0.3, -3.1, 11.7 (yes, in just 14 games. But what games!). That's only 0.9 overall, but it's 2.2 weighted 3-2-1, which is a first division starter. You've got to ride that pony as long as it takes to find out if it's indeed a thoroughbred.
|
|
|