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Red Sox sign Dempster: 2-year, $26.5 million
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 14, 2012 6:59:42 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone cares what kind of money these guys are getting. What's the alternative, not being outraged at what the Sox are doing? That's clearly ridiculous.
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Post by remember04 on Dec 14, 2012 9:13:39 GMT -5
For the record, yes I was joking about Dice-k. This off season has me thinking back about two things. The first is the Gil Meche deal with the Royals that everyone thought was crazy and the other was the Johnny Damon no sign because of the money and years he wanted. Things really have changed in a relatively short time.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 14, 2012 9:23:08 GMT -5
For the record, yes I was joking about Dice-k. This off season has me thinking back about two things. The first is the Gil Meche deal with the Royals that everyone thought was crazy and the other was the Johnny Damon no sign because of the money and years he wanted. Things really have changed in a relatively short time.True, except everyone still thinks Dayton Moore is crazy.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 14, 2012 9:32:30 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone cares what kind of money these guys are getting. What's the alternative, not being outraged at what the Sox are doing? That's clearly ridiculous. People should care about the money they are paying these players. Not in terms of whether the owners pocket money or not but in terms of how it affects roster construction going forward. The ownership group doesn't have he appetite to go beyond a certain dollar amount. They proved that lat year. Since players salaries affect roster construction we should care. Personally, I believe this years contracts are fine in that regard, even looking ahed a year or two but that's just my opinion and I certainly still care about the money. I'm just ok with it in this instance.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 14, 2012 10:49:02 GMT -5
People should care about the money they are paying these players. Not in terms of whether the owners pocket money or not but in terms of how it affects roster construction going forward. This is a legitimate point. Right now the Sox have lots of salary room remaining and so these short term overpays may not be an issue. But there's still the larger philosophical issue of how much annual $ the team should allocate to adding stars at huge money, above average players at big money, young players and value pickups at modest or minimal salaries -- how to maximize return for $180M for 25+ spots.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 14, 2012 13:38:21 GMT -5
People should care about the money they are paying these players. Not in terms of whether the owners pocket money or not but in terms of how it affects roster construction going forward. The ownership group doesn't have he appetite to go beyond a certain dollar amount. They proved that lat year. Since players salaries affect roster construction we should care. Personally, I believe this years contracts are fine in that regard, even looking ahed a year or two but that's just my opinion and I certainly still care about the money. I'm just ok with it in this instance. Yeah, that's pretty much my point. None of these contracts restricts the Sox going forward, so what's the difference if it's a slight overpay for Dempster or not? I'm not convinced it is, anyway, but I care so little I haven't thought about it enough to decide. Greinke, Hamilton, etc are contracts that could hamstring the franchise so the value consideration is something I, as a fan, would care about.
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Post by welovewally on Dec 15, 2012 7:28:14 GMT -5
Dempster is not what I would have liked to see. I don't hate it, but I don't think he makes the team better. He is just another experienced MLB player along the lines of all the other signings.
I think Sanchez @ 5/80 by Detroit is a great deal & that the Red Sox should have topped it with something like 5/82.5 with a team option for a 6th year for ages 28 - 32 (33) & if it took guaranteeing the 6th year to sign him, they should of.
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Post by patrmac04 on Dec 15, 2012 12:35:15 GMT -5
Dempster is not what I would have liked to see. I don't hate it, but I don't think he makes the team better. He is just another experienced MLB player along the lines of all the other signings. I think Sanchez @ 5/80 by Detroit is a great deal & that the Red Sox should have topped it with something like 5/82.5 with a team option for a 6th year for ages 28 - 32 (33) & if it took guaranteeing the 6th year to sign him, they should of. Lester has been and is a slightly better pitcher than Sanchez and is a power lefty so that is more rare... would you give Lester a 5 year extension today for 82.5 million and a 6th option year? They are the same age with Lester being a month younger. So the signing of Dempster is an excellent signing for only two years at short money. It also prevents us from giving up a compensation draft pick while the team is in rebuilding mode. The reason why this makes us a better team is that it improves depth. Clay has a chronic back problem. No telling when he might hit the DL. He also had a craptastic start to last year, so what pitcher do we get? Do we get the first half or second half pitcher? Lester had an off year and is back with Farrell so I would rank his chances of a rebound higher than most... but honestly it is a crap shoot at this point. I wonder how much the Sox believe he will rebound based on the trade rumors... so that is another question mark. Lackey... he sucked before the surgery... who knows who we will get. Felix... could he be the pitcher we saw for the first half of the year or the second? This is a big year for him to show his future probable career path. Who is the starter when one or more of the starters is under performing or gets hurt? If anything this team needs to sign another starter for depth. After the signed starters we have the following: Aceves - who knows if he will even be on the team next year, but he can spot start... but if we have him logging 100 innings next year this team isn't going anywhere. Morales - had success in his limited duties as a starter and went against the odds and his numbers seemed to have improved as a starter. His arm might fall off, but he is the only swing man who I wouldn't mind seeing log a lot of innings. After that it's a crap shoot... all unproven kids or the only other option I can think of is to grab your best relief pitcher in Tazawa. Odds are that out of all of our starters that could get called up... Webster, Hernandez, Godfrey... that they will be far less effective than Dempster. For all the talk about De La Rosa, he never logged more than 60 innings before in his career so he is a right handed bullpen arm to add to our stockpile. Barnes just got promoted to AA at the end of last year so he has time to develop still. If anything we need at least one more signing like this Dempster move or we need to trade our excess for another starter. We lack depth at the high levels of the minors in quality starting pitching. A quiet but solid move was to pick up Graham Godfrey from the A's to address a bit of the depth problem... but we are an injury or two away at this point from being a disaster next year.
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Post by pbgallag on Dec 15, 2012 14:00:22 GMT -5
Dempster is not what I would have liked to see. I don't hate it, but I don't think he makes the team better. He is just another experienced MLB player along the lines of all the other signings. I think Sanchez @ 5/80 by Detroit is a great deal & that the Red Sox should have topped it with something like 5/82.5 with a team option for a 6th year for ages 28 - 32 (33) & if it took guaranteeing the 6th year to sign him, they should of. You don't like Dempster for 2/26.5 but you advocate giving Sanchez 6/100? Wow. Horrendous idea. Especially given that Sanchez is more injury prone and comparable in performance.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 15, 2012 20:56:16 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal reporting they're close. Dempster's put up good numbers in the NL, but played most of his career there and is 35. Fastball averaged 89.6 last season per Fangraphs. He has potential to be an innings eater, but definitely scares me in the AL East. I just hope it's for no more than two years. Thread Title says "Red Sox Sign Ryan Dempster..." No official announcement yet. Same for Koji and Mike. Roster problem or medical issues?
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Post by jmei on Dec 15, 2012 21:54:06 GMT -5
The Red Sox delay in making official announcements all the time. 99% of the time it's nothing-- just a delay in getting physicals completed, making travel arrangements, figuring out roster countermoves, etc. Very rarely is it because of a legitimate problem with the medicals, as appears to be the case with Napoli, and even then, the deal almost always eventually goes through in the end with just some injury protection language in the contract. Relax.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 15, 2012 22:07:57 GMT -5
The Napoli issue is a real concern. The additions of Dempster and O'Hara as well as Napoli, if he's fit to perform, will require moving players from the 40 man roster.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 15, 2012 22:56:19 GMT -5
The Napoli issue is a real concern. The additions of Dempster and O'Hara as well as Napoli, if he's fit to perform, will require moving players from the 40 man roster. Well, technically the additions of two of the three. Roster's at 39.
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Post by remember04 on Dec 16, 2012 10:08:26 GMT -5
Lester has been and is a slightly better pitcher than Sanchez and is a power lefty so that is more rare... would you give Lester a 5 year extension today for 82.5 million and a 6th option year? They are the same age with Lester being a month younger. Clay has a chronic back problem. No telling when he might hit the DL. He also had a craptastic start to last year, so what pitcher do we get? Do we get the first half or second half pitcher? Lester had an off year and is back with Farrell so I would rank his chances of a rebound higher than most... but honestly it is a crap shoot at this point. I wonder how much the Sox believe he will rebound based on the trade rumors... so that is another question mark. So I did some editing here but in response to the first paragraph I agree with you but there are two things to consider here. first is that we had very high hopes for Lester and thought for sure if he signed for anything less than 20 mil a year it would be a team friendly contract. Second is that the going rate for pitching is going up and up and I don't see it coming down anytime soon. By the end of the Sanchez deal if he's still still pitching well that could look like a very team friendly contract too. Clay was coming back from the stress fracture in his back so I fully expected struggles in the start and fully expect to see more the second half Clay next year. There's a lot of tinkering that could go on with him though. His ceiling if he ever puts it all together is insane. I don't see that happening but a pretty good pitcher is a nice reasonable assumption Lester has been with Farrel before and he always struggled to start the season and then put it all together some time in May. Lately May just hasn't come for him. My point is Farrel might be able to "fix" Lester but he's had chances before.
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Post by buffs4444 on Dec 16, 2012 10:33:19 GMT -5
Aceves - who knows if he will even be on the team next year, but he can spot start... but if we have him logging 100 innings next year this team isn't going anywhere. I'm fairly confident you'll see Aceves on this team next year. Dempster is basically a 6-inning pitcher at this point. Aceves becomes very important to compensate for those extra innings that 36-37 year old Dempster isn't going to provide. Aceves becomes Dempster's piggy back starter, his binky, whatever you want to call it, but important nonetheless.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 16, 2012 10:43:00 GMT -5
Aceves - who knows if he will even be on the team next year, but he can spot start... but if we have him logging 100 innings next year this team isn't going anywhere. I'm fairly confident you'll see Aceves on this team next year. Dempster is basically a 6-inning pitcher at this point. Aceves becomes very important to compensate for those extra innings that 36-37 year old Dempster isn't going to provide. Aceves becomes Dempster's piggy back starter, his binky, whatever you want to call it, but important nonetheless. I hope we don't need a "binky" for the other 4, but I believe Dempster has as good chance of getting to the 7th as they do. I wouldn't be surprised if he gives us MORE innings than all of them but one (Lester).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2012 12:37:22 GMT -5
Dempster pitched into the 7th in 13 of his 28 starts (46%) last year. For comparison, Lester was 19 of 33 (58%), Buchholz 20 of 29 (69%), Doubront 8 of 29 (28%), Morales in 1 of his 9 starts (11%).
So yeah, Dempster may have been a bit behind Lester and Buchholz, but it's not like he's Five-Inning Frank Castillo.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 16, 2012 16:44:25 GMT -5
Plus with pitchers hitting and the NL style of ball, I would think pitchers tend go fewer innings on average in the NL.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 16, 2012 19:37:36 GMT -5
^This
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 16, 2012 19:47:44 GMT -5
is that an educated guess? 26 of the top 40 in innings pitched last year pitched in the NL. ( it was split even in 2011) Includes Sanchez and Greinke who pitched in both leagues. I feel it doesn't really apply to good pitchers as a manager won't take him out if he's going we'll like he will a back end guy. They also get to face the opposing pitcher and overall weaker lineups than in the AL.
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Post by tjb21 on Dec 17, 2012 11:31:46 GMT -5
Dempster is not what I would have liked to see. I don't hate it, but I don't think he makes the team better. He is just another experienced MLB player along the lines of all the other signings. I think Sanchez @ 5/80 by Detroit is a great deal & that the Red Sox should have topped it with something like 5/82.5 with a team option for a 6th year for ages 28 - 32 (33) & if it took guaranteeing the 6th year to sign him, they should of. Dempster doesn't make Boston a better team? Sorry, but I disagree that Boston had better options than RD. You are entitled to your opinion on Sanchez, but the contract you're talking about is pretty far out there.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 17, 2012 11:44:38 GMT -5
So, it's safe to say that the rumored Salty to Chicago for Gavin Floyd was that, only...a rumor.
With the Napoli status somewhat muddled, the Sox may be reluctant to trade a catcher at this point. I was looking forward to his catching Dempster since the two of them were Texas teammates. Could still happen, but we still don't know the behind the scenes machinations of the Napoli situation.
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Post by mainesox on Dec 17, 2012 12:28:36 GMT -5
Dempster is not what I would have liked to see. I don't hate it, but I don't think he makes the team better. He is just another experienced MLB player along the lines of all the other signings. I think Sanchez @ 5/80 by Detroit is a great deal & that the Red Sox should have topped it with something like 5/82.5 with a team option for a 6th year for ages 28 - 32 (33) & if it took guaranteeing the 6th year to sign him, they should of. Dempster doesn't make Boston a better team? Sorry, but I disagree that Boston had better options than RD. You are entitled to your opinion on Sanchez, but the contract you're talking about is pretty far out there. I'm a huge Sanchez fan, and was probably one of the biggest advocates of signing him, but I wouldn't even have given him the contract he got, let alone topping it.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 17, 2012 23:18:51 GMT -5
So, it's safe to say that the rumored Salty to Chicago for Gavin Floyd was that, only...a rumor. With the Napoli status somewhat muddled, the Sox may be reluctant to trade a catcher at this point. I was looking forward to his catching Dempster since the two of them were Texas teammates. Could still happen, but we still don't know the behind the scenes machinations of the Napoli situation. Napoli actually only caught him once, and that was this game when he failed to get out of the fourth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2013 11:17:45 GMT -5
the sox signed dempster to a two year contract this offseason. he was mainly signed because of his great durability and his ability to throw 200 frames year after year. the problem is, i dont see that happening in boston. he has been a national league pitcher his whole career, in a pitcher friendly division. in reality though, he has really never been great. he is a career .500 pitcher with a 4.33 career ERA. he has put up a couple good years in the past, but then he will follow that with a terrible year. in 2012, he put up a 2.25 ERA over 16 starts with the cubs and a 5.09 ERA over 12 starts with the Rangers. he gave up more than 5 runs 4 times in his time in texas. that is 33% of his starts. he is obviously not an al pitcher. he has not put up good numbers against al east teams. www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=dempsry01&year=Career&t=pif the sox signed dempster to pick up innings, i really dont see it happening if he is knocked out of the game in the third or fourth inning in half of his starts. i'd call it a bad signing on the part of the Red sox
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