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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 11, 2016 13:31:46 GMT -5
there you have it. I'll try to keep my mouth shut next season as much as possible
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 11, 2016 13:32:47 GMT -5
PeteAbe Dombrowski says the most important quality for a manger is getting the club to play up to its potential, not in-game strategy. 10/11/16, 11:19 AM
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 11, 2016 13:40:32 GMT -5
Over under on fire the manager posts in the game day threads next year? I was ready to move on, but will enjoy the know it alls going crazy.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 11, 2016 16:04:41 GMT -5
PeteAbe Dombrowski says the most important quality for a manger is getting the club to play up to its potential, not in-game strategy. 10/11/16, 11:19 AM Why not both? SMH. It's not just the in-game strategy. It's the absurd overwork of Tazawa year after year, it's the failure to see that Tazawa was struggling for weeks before he moved him out of high leverage, it's the failure to see that Mookie shouldn't be batting leadoff with a .550 SLG% for most of the season, it's hitting JBJ 9th for the months when he was OPS'ing over .900. There are tons of these examples where he takes 10 times as long to adapt as he should. No one can make a valid argument that he needs to keep Tazawa comfortable in his role while he's warming up 3 out of every 4 days for a month and then begins to stink at the same time that Robbie Ross is going a week between appearances and was probably the 2nd best relief pitcher. Why the hell can't anyone working for the team sit down and give Farrell vital information that he's ignoring or missing and that he sits there and listens to it with an open mind? Why can't that be an edict from DDo? Is it really impossible to be able to adapt more quickly? There is a whole team involved. Either Farrell is way too stubborn and set in his ways, or the analytics department has almost zero input on anything or they are incompetent. Farrell can be better if he accepts help and it is given to him.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 11, 2016 16:05:00 GMT -5
PeteAbe Dombrowski says the most important quality for a manger is getting the club to play up to its potential, not in-game strategy. 10/11/16, 11:19 AM Those things aren't related or anything.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 11, 2016 16:08:03 GMT -5
Glad to see John will be back for another season to complete unfinished business. Full scouting staff retained as well. Would like to see Bannister take on more responsibility with the pitching staff.
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Post by costpet on Oct 11, 2016 17:02:21 GMT -5
On the other hand, he might be on a short leash. If they suck in April, you might see Lovullo step in. I can see why DD is keeping him. After all, he turned around a last place team to first. So, it wouldn't look fair to dump him. But, next year is next year and we shall see. It's not like we're stuck with him the whole season.
Why is it that we dumped Tito? I keep forgetting.
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Post by bigpupp on Oct 11, 2016 17:31:38 GMT -5
On the other hand, he might be on a short leash. If they suck in April, you might see Lovullo step in. I can see why DD is keeping him. After all, he turned around a last place team to first. So, it wouldn't look fair to dump him. But, next year is next year and we shall see. It's not like we're stuck with him the whole season. Why is it that we dumped Tito? I keep forgetting. Chicken and beer. Which is only slightly more ridiculous than the stuff Farrell gets blamed for.
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 11, 2016 18:25:35 GMT -5
Franconas time was up here. He lost control of himself and the team. That's fine it happens. Most managers have a shelf life at a location. But the front office was a bunch of jerks when he left.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 11, 2016 18:27:28 GMT -5
PeteAbe Dombrowski says the most important quality for a manger is getting the club to play up to its potential, not in-game strategy. 10/11/16, 11:19 AM Those things aren't related or anything. They also aren't mutually exclusive. But hey, we live in the age of the strawman.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 11, 2016 21:12:14 GMT -5
On the other hand, he might be on a short leash. If they suck in April, you might see Lovullo step in. I can see why DD is keeping him. After all, he turned around a last place team to first. So, it wouldn't look fair to dump him. But, next year is next year and we shall see. It's not like we're stuck with him the whole season. Why is it that we dumped Tito? I keep forgetting. Team may be cutting ties with Lovullo. DD said there were no restrictions, as there were last season, on Lovullo seeking employment elsewhere.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 11, 2016 21:16:50 GMT -5
They also aren't mutually exclusive. But hey, we live in the age of the strawman. But a manager that's truly good at both is really, really rare. You have Bochy, Francona and maybe Maddon. I don't understand why people act like any random dude that walks through the door is going to be a better manager than Farrell.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 11, 2016 21:54:38 GMT -5
Franconas time was up here. He lost control of himself and the team. That's fine it happens. Most managers have a shelf life at a location. But the front office was a bunch of jerks when he left. I think the bigger issue with Francona is that he had no starting pitching depth and the bullpen went belly up when Bard lost total control and Papelbon blew a few games. I think that was a much bigger problem than "losing control of himself and the team". I don't really think he did. I never felt the firing was justified and I always felt that Theo hated "giving into the Monster" and couldn't stand what he was becoming and wanted to go somewhere where he could build from scratch the way he wanted to, for as long as he needed, without marketing and image being the biggest consideration as it was in Boston. I'll always feel the Sox were at their absolute best when they had Theo in the front office doing what he really wanted to do and when they had Tito in the manager's chair.
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 12, 2016 7:44:15 GMT -5
I agree with you that this is when the Sox were at their best. They never should have meddled with Theo and they should have let him do his job the way he wanted. I think we'd be naive to think that he wasn't at least part of feeding into the monster. He had so much success at a young age; I'm sure he made some moves on his own that he regrets trying to sustain that rather than stay true to his values of possibly taking a small step back to go forward stronger. That being said, he should still be here and shouldn't have been meddled with the way he was.
We can love Francona as much as we want but we can't rewrite history. He did lose control of himself (documented pill popping) and the Club House (chicken and beer is what's pointed to, but it's not about that. It's about the overall divisions that came up during that time and guy's priorities being out of whack). I'm not blaming Francona or putting him down. There are a million reasons for it and many out of his control but it doesn't change the fact the team turned into a mess under his watch.
In short, Theo should still be here but Francona should not. Francona is one of the best managers in baseball today and the best the Red Sox have ever had.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 12, 2016 9:07:01 GMT -5
I believe it came down to timing as well. If Lucchino retired a few years earlier, Theo may have been given the key's to the President's office. Or at least DDom's title.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 12, 2016 10:43:19 GMT -5
They also aren't mutually exclusive. But hey, we live in the age of the strawman. But a manager that's truly good at both is really, really rare. You have Bochy, Francona and maybe Maddon. I don't understand why people act like any random dude that walks through the door is going to be a better manager than Farrell. Then again, if he's great in the clubhouse and has all the analytics in the world at his fingertips, as well as info on who needs a day off etc, one would think that the 2nd component - in game management - could be taught or at the very least, improved upon. But this is the same field manager I saw in Toronto - form leaving in starters too long in close or tie games "to give the guy a chance to get a win" to misreading relievers' strengths/weaknesses/ appropriateness/etc for using in certain situations to just overusing guys in April and May and then saying "we'll have to sort out the pen" when they blow up in July, to letting starters who are not having one of the best five games of their lives go through the order a 4th time in close or tied games. He either doesn't want to learn or doesn't think he has to. The front office is just as complicit if they 1) haven't tried to change him on these proclivities and 2) if they have and he keeps on ignoring them or slipping back into them after one or two corrections and they fail to continue to reinforce such adjustments again, or set up some easier to follow decision loops, or canning him.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 12, 2016 10:43:50 GMT -5
I believe it came down to timing as well. If Lucchino retired a few years earlier, Theo may have been given the key's to the President's office. Or at least DDom's title. And we'd still have Cleveland's manager.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 12, 2016 13:01:07 GMT -5
Then again, if he's great in the clubhouse and has all the analytics in the world at his fingertips, as well as info on who needs a day off etc, one would think that the 2nd component - in game management - could be taught or at the very least, improved upon. But this is the same field manager I saw in Toronto - form leaving in starters too long in close or tie games "to give the guy a chance to get a win" to misreading relievers' strengths/weaknesses/ appropriateness/etc for using in certain situations to just overusing guys in April and May and then saying "we'll have to sort out the pen" when they blow up in July, to letting starters who are not having one of the best five games of their lives go through the order a 4th time in close or tied games. He either doesn't want to learn or doesn't think he has to. The front office is just as complicit if they 1) haven't tried to change him on these proclivities and 2) if they have and he keeps on ignoring them or slipping back into them after one or two corrections and they fail to continue to reinforce such adjustments again, or set up some easier to follow decision loops, or canning him. This is not an answer to what I said. Again, you have maybe 3 guys in the MLB who are really great at "both parts" of being a manager. Not just good, but really good. If it's theoretically so easy to improve, why aren't there more guys like those?
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Post by marrcus on Oct 12, 2016 13:14:10 GMT -5
So he's got 2017 plus a club op for '18. How long before the drumbeat starts saying ' the skipper needs an extension or he's a lame duck.'
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 12, 2016 13:33:31 GMT -5
So he's got 2017 plus a club op for '18. How long before the drumbeat starts saying ' the skipper needs an extension or he's a lame duck.' I already mentioned it yesterday. The Red Sox never go into a season with a manager in his last year of his contract. Well not that I remember anyway.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 12, 2016 15:08:38 GMT -5
So he's got 2017 plus a club op for '18. How long before the drumbeat starts saying ' the skipper needs an extension or he's a lame duck.' If they are in the hunt come August, don't be surprised if DD picks up John's 2018 option.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 12, 2016 15:24:40 GMT -5
So he's got 2017 plus a club op for '18. How long before the drumbeat starts saying ' the skipper needs an extension or he's a lame duck.' If they are in the hunt come August, don't be surprised if DD picks up John's 2018 option. I'd be shocked if it isn't picked up before the season starts.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 12, 2016 16:33:54 GMT -5
Then again, if he's great in the clubhouse and has all the analytics in the world at his fingertips, as well as info on who needs a day off etc, one would think that the 2nd component - in game management - could be taught or at the very least, improved upon. But this is the same field manager I saw in Toronto - form leaving in starters too long in close or tie games "to give the guy a chance to get a win" to misreading relievers' strengths/weaknesses/ appropriateness/etc for using in certain situations to just overusing guys in April and May and then saying "we'll have to sort out the pen" when they blow up in July, to letting starters who are not having one of the best five games of their lives go through the order a 4th time in close or tied games. He either doesn't want to learn or doesn't think he has to. The front office is just as complicit if they 1) haven't tried to change him on these proclivities and 2) if they have and he keeps on ignoring them or slipping back into them after one or two corrections and they fail to continue to reinforce such adjustments again, or set up some easier to follow decision loops, or canning him. This is not an answer to what I said. Again, you have maybe 3 guys in the MLB who are really great at "both parts" of being a manager. Not just good, but really good. If it's theoretically so easy to improve, why aren't there more guys like those? I would settle for better. He has made no discernible improvement to his on-field management skills since his first year in Toronto.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 12, 2016 17:30:52 GMT -5
I would settle for better. He has made no discernible improvement to his on-field management skills since his first year in Toronto. That's relative, during the streak that won us the AL East he made some very nice moves in basically every game. You're not going to see a day and night difference because you're not going to see that with pretty much any manager ever, but there has been some small but noticeable improvements.
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Post by Coreno on Oct 12, 2016 22:35:14 GMT -5
I'm very confused by the way they are going about this. Its like they are trying to convince the fans that they think JF is their guy. But if he actually was, why wouldn't they just commit to him? Don't hang him out to dry in a contract year. Either fire him, or extend him. Dont play this in-between game BS.
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