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MLB Investigates Red Sox Over International Signings
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Post by grandsalami on May 11, 2016 15:38:00 GMT -5
“ evandrellich: Can confirm the players have been questioned last week as BA reported, but the club has not been. t.co/gpJycrJ652”“ evandrellich: MLB sources believe accusation of threats comes from ”people trying to cover this up.” The players aren’t the ones who would get in trouble.”
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Post by grandsalami on May 11, 2016 15:40:36 GMT -5
“ evandrellich: Fines, suspensions and loss of future signing rights are all possible outcomes of attempts to circumvent MLB’s international bonus system.”
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Post by jimed14 on May 11, 2016 17:34:06 GMT -5
I think what they must be trying to find out is if the "package deals" are essentially sham signings to funnel money to the players that the Sox wanted, guys like Guaimaro and Muzziotti. If they're checking bank accounts, it's probably to find out if the money came in and then mostly went right back out to the top players' families or something. I'd presume that THAT would be against the rules, without looking. As for it "not being clear that the Red Sox did this," let's be honest here - it's VERY clear the Red Sox signed guys in package deals. On the flip side, it's kind of outrageous how MLB is conducting this investigation. For them to conduct this like some sort of sting operation is completely unnecessary. Yeah, you know how easy it is to get kids to say whatever you want them to say when they are not getting any legal advice.
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Post by soxfan06 on May 11, 2016 18:06:15 GMT -5
Not quite sure how negotiating deals to bring guys prices down is "circumventing the bonus pool."
These guys trade money in for the security of their friends and potentially family members. Those are things you and I might negotiate in our own contracts. Now some people, like MLB, might not be happy with that, but I don't see how that is considered circumventing the bonus pool idea. It's almost as if, MLB is putting a value on players and then assume if they don't sign for that much, illegal activity happened.
Now, it's a different story, if the guys who are part of a package deal are just being used as a funnel of cash (ie we're paying guys, who in turn send the money to the best player) well that's just a scumbag move and the Red Sox deserve to be punished.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 11, 2016 18:27:43 GMT -5
I'm glad they cheated this dumb system and I hope they continue to do it every chance they get. It would be horrible if MLB ends up punishing the kids, though.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 11, 2016 18:35:51 GMT -5
I'm torn. On one hand I'm thinking that it wasn't explicitly against the rules and, thus, should not be punished. OTOH, it sounds like a pretty blatant attempt to skirt the rules.
But nobody should be going to a minor and demanding his private bank account number or else. If any one of us did that to the kid next door, we'd be arrested. If that part of the story is true, then God knows how many MLB investigators, lawyers, accountants and support personnel have those kids' private banking information.
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Post by jimed14 on May 11, 2016 18:39:10 GMT -5
It's BS that the Red Sox are the only team being investigated. This wouldn't happen if Werner was elected commissioner.
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Post by jmei on May 11, 2016 19:31:11 GMT -5
It's BS that the Red Sox are the only team being investigated. This wouldn't happen if Werner was elected commissioner. Honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm.
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Post by templeusox on May 11, 2016 22:15:34 GMT -5
It's kind of messed up that they do it. I know it's common practice and all, but you're putting some very young (and poor) kids in tough spots.
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Post by Smittyw on May 12, 2016 7:09:51 GMT -5
It's BS that the Red Sox are the only team being investigated. This wouldn't happen if Werner was elected commissioner. Honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm. I bet the Red Sox are forced to surrender Espinoza to the NYY as a penalty.
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brisox
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Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on May 12, 2016 14:09:09 GMT -5
This is getting REALLY BAD. MLB is bringing in our international scouting dept for closed door meetings today. expectation are suspensions, financial penalties and ongoing restrictions. This will be deflate gate 2.0 and potentially the loss of key guys like ER , who built us into one of the best IS departments in Baseball. This is nothing short of a witch hunt because we have been able to scoop up so many highly sought after players because of the great folks we have who build strong relationships with these kids and their families, and building strong programs in DR and VZ with quality facilities that make kids want to sign with us. now the rest of the teams want MLB to go after us for their failure to invest in the market properly.
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Post by grandsalami on May 12, 2016 14:13:52 GMT -5
This is getting REALLY BAD. MLB is bringing in our international scouting dept for closed door meetings today. expectation are suspensions, financial penalties and ongoing restrictions. This will be deflate gate 2.0 and potentially the loss of key guys like ER , who built us into one of the best IS departments in Baseball. This is nothing short of a witch hunt because we have been able to scoop up so many highly sought after players because of the great folks we have who build strong relationships with these kids and their families, and building strong programs in DR and VZ with quality facilities that make kids want to sign with us. now the rest of the teams want MLB to go after us for their failure to invest in the market properly. Source?
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brisox
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Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on May 12, 2016 14:14:37 GMT -5
It's kind of messed up that they do it. I know it's common practice and all, but you're putting some very young (and poor) kids in tough spots. This is not true, the kids want to sign with us because of what we bring our people have spent sometimes years getting to know these kids and their families and are often friends with them. The Sox have invested more than any other team in some of these areas providing charities that give back to the communities , shoes on feet, food on tables. International scouting is not just about the checkbook, these kids are happy to pool to be part of the Red Sox. As for DR , we have 2 soon to be 3 teams there Papi is the most famous person in the country and he personally has built fields there and given a ton back to a very poor country. It's sad the way MLB has handled this making it seem that we are getting these top kids only be cheating
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brisox
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Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on May 12, 2016 14:16:14 GMT -5
This is getting REALLY BAD. MLB is bringing in our international scouting dept for closed door meetings today. expectation are suspensions, financial penalties and ongoing restrictions. This will be deflate gate 2.0 and potentially the loss of key guys like ER , who built us into one of the best IS departments in Baseball. This is nothing short of a witch hunt because we have been able to scoop up so many highly sought after players because of the great folks we have who build strong relationships with these kids and their families, and building strong programs in DR and VZ with quality facilities that make kids want to sign with us. now the rest of the teams want MLB to go after us for their failure to invest in the market properly. Source? Santa told me. Don't be daft I am not a professional reporter and you are not a congressional committee , this is a message board, believe what you want.
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Post by jimed14 on May 12, 2016 14:26:32 GMT -5
This is getting REALLY BAD. MLB is bringing in our international scouting dept for closed door meetings today. expectation are suspensions, financial penalties and ongoing restrictions. This will be deflate gate 2.0 and potentially the loss of key guys like ER , who built us into one of the best IS departments in Baseball. This is nothing short of a witch hunt because we have been able to scoop up so many highly sought after players because of the great folks we have who build strong relationships with these kids and their families, and building strong programs in DR and VZ with quality facilities that make kids want to sign with us. now the rest of the teams want MLB to go after us for their failure to invest in the market properly. How can they possibly do that? Are they banning him from baseball? And what the hell are they doing about every other team that does this?
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Post by okin15 on May 12, 2016 14:30:29 GMT -5
Santa told me. Don't be daft I am not a professional reporter and you are not a congressional committee , this is a message board, believe what you want. Ouch, why so mean? I have the same question. Asked another way, is this your opinion, or a fact or rumor you heard somewhere?? And if a fact or rumor, can you give us a source, or a level of source if the source is private?? Without that info, we don't really know how to react to your comment. Thanks.
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Post by jmei on May 12, 2016 14:43:25 GMT -5
It's kind of messed up that they do it. I know it's common practice and all, but you're putting some very young (and poor) kids in tough spots. This is not true, the kids want to sign with us because of what we bring our people have spent sometimes years getting to know these kids and their families and are often friends with them. The Sox have invested more than any other team in some of these areas providing charities that give back to the communities , shoes on feet, food on tables. International scouting is not just about the checkbook, these kids are happy to pool to be part of the Red Sox. As for DR , we have 2 soon to be 3 teams there Papi is the most famous person in the country and he personally has built fields there and given a ton back to a very poor country. It's sad the way MLB has handled this making it seem that we are getting these top kids only be cheating Let's be real here-- it's not the kids who are really driving the bus in terms of deciding which team to sign with, it's largely the trainers who steer the kids towards their preferred teams. And its those trainers who are the real beneficiaries of package deals. I don't think any informed observer thinks Boston's recent IFA success (read: Devers, Espinoza, etc.) is mainly or even significantly because of package deals. But it did appear to provide them with a leg-up on a couple highly-regarded IFAs in a year when their bonuses were capped. They broke the rules and got caught-- I'm having a hard time seeing all the outrage.
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brisox
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Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on May 12, 2016 14:50:05 GMT -5
Santa told me. Don't be daft I am not a professional reporter and you are not a congressional committee , this is a message board, believe what you want. Ouch, why so mean? I have the same question. Asked another way, is this your opinion, or a fact or rumor you heard somewhere?? And if a fact or rumor, can you give us a source, or a level of source if the source is private?? Without that info, we don't really know how to react to your comment. Thanks. I post here as a courtesy because I think this board has great people on it. but I am sorry, same answer , believe what you want, react however you like, ignoring me is completely acceptable, I can't say anything at this point more than I have.
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Post by grandsalami on May 12, 2016 14:50:16 GMT -5
This is not true, the kids want to sign with us because of what we bring our people have spent sometimes years getting to know these kids and their families and are often friends with them. The Sox have invested more than any other team in some of these areas providing charities that give back to the communities , shoes on feet, food on tables. International scouting is not just about the checkbook, these kids are happy to pool to be part of the Red Sox. As for DR , we have 2 soon to be 3 teams there Papi is the most famous person in the country and he personally has built fields there and given a ton back to a very poor country. It's sad the way MLB has handled this making it seem that we are getting these top kids only be cheating Let's be real here-- it's not the kids who are really driving the bus in terms of deciding which team to sign with, it's largely the trainers who steer the kids towards their preferred teams. And its those trainers who are the real beneficiaries of package deals. I don't think any informed observer thinks Boston's recent IFA success (read: Devers, Espinoza, etc.) is mainly or even significantly because of package deals. But it did appear to provide them with a leg-up on a couple highly-regarded IFAs in a year when their bonuses were capped. They broke the rules and got caught-- I'm having a hard time seeing all the outrage. I think the outrage is that if what he is saying is true, not only would the punishment be outrageous, but the punishment would be stiffer than what STL received... and what STL did could send someone to JAIL because they broke FEDERAL LAW ....
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brisox
Rookie
SoxProspects Veteran
Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on May 12, 2016 14:56:20 GMT -5
This is not true, the kids want to sign with us because of what we bring our people have spent sometimes years getting to know these kids and their families and are often friends with them. The Sox have invested more than any other team in some of these areas providing charities that give back to the communities , shoes on feet, food on tables. International scouting is not just about the checkbook, these kids are happy to pool to be part of the Red Sox. As for DR , we have 2 soon to be 3 teams there Papi is the most famous person in the country and he personally has built fields there and given a ton back to a very poor country. It's sad the way MLB has handled this making it seem that we are getting these top kids only be cheating Let's be real here-- it's not the kids who are really driving the bus in terms of deciding which team to sign with, it's largely the trainers who steer the kids towards their preferred teams. And its those trainers who are the real beneficiaries of package deals. I don't think any informed observer thinks Boston's recent IFA success (read: Devers, Espinoza, etc.) is mainly or even significantly because of package deals. But it did appear to provide them with a leg-up on a couple highly-regarded IFAs in a year when their bonuses were capped. They broke the rules and got caught-- I'm having a hard time seeing all the outrage. The trainers and their families have much influence , the point I reacted to was that this was somehow taking advantage of these kids, that is not what was happening. I agree. Rules are rules , but there is definitely a RS specific focus here to punish us for a common practice in order to set an example.
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Post by jmei on May 12, 2016 15:02:48 GMT -5
I will wait to see what the punishment is (if any), but I strongly suspect it will end up being relatively minor. Some fines, short-term suspensions, maybe another year or spending restrictions-- nothing much in the big picture. I also hear a lot of gnashing of teeth about how other teams do this all the time, but I think the Red Sox were by far the biggest offender. No other team under spending restrictions (Diamondbacks, Angels, Rays, Yankees) signed any of BA's top 30 July 2 prospects last year, and the Red Sox signed two of them. Here's an MLB.com article on last year's top July 2 prospects. Tick through the list and look at the signing bonus amounts. What's the one that glaringly stands out? It's Guaimaro's $300K. I do agree that the Red Sox are being made an example of, but that's largely because they pushed the boundaries the farthest and were the most blatant in doing so.
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Post by jmei on May 12, 2016 15:13:27 GMT -5
I do think it's somewhat taking advantage of the kids, by the way. I don't think the kids get more money this way than if they just signed with the highest bidder. I suspect the real reason trainers do this stuff rather than just taking the highest offer from a non-capped team is because they get a larger cut of package deals. Generally, for top-tier prospects, trainers get a smaller percentage, and they get a larger percentage for lower-tier prospects. A package deal split between one top-tier prospect and one lower-tier prospect thus nets the trainer more money and the kids less money than if the top-tier prospect signed for the same amount of money alone. ADD: here's Kiley McDaniel's more detailed explanation ( link):
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Post by jimed14 on May 12, 2016 15:19:41 GMT -5
This is not true, the kids want to sign with us because of what we bring our people have spent sometimes years getting to know these kids and their families and are often friends with them. The Sox have invested more than any other team in some of these areas providing charities that give back to the communities , shoes on feet, food on tables. International scouting is not just about the checkbook, these kids are happy to pool to be part of the Red Sox. As for DR , we have 2 soon to be 3 teams there Papi is the most famous person in the country and he personally has built fields there and given a ton back to a very poor country. It's sad the way MLB has handled this making it seem that we are getting these top kids only be cheating Let's be real here-- it's not the kids who are really driving the bus in terms of deciding which team to sign with, it's largely the trainers who steer the kids towards their preferred teams. And its those trainers who are the real beneficiaries of package deals. I don't think any informed observer thinks Boston's recent IFA success (read: Devers, Espinoza, etc.) is mainly or even significantly because of package deals. But it did appear to provide them with a leg-up on a couple highly-regarded IFAs in a year when their bonuses were capped. They broke the rules and got caught-- I'm having a hard time seeing all the outrage. So then the obvious question then is 'how much are these trainers getting bribed?'
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Post by jmei on May 12, 2016 18:19:35 GMT -5
As you might expect, MLB's sources are responding with their version of events. Here's Keith Law ( link):
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Post by chavopepe2 on May 12, 2016 19:26:36 GMT -5
Let's be real here-- it's not the kids who are really driving the bus in terms of deciding which team to sign with, it's largely the trainers who steer the kids towards their preferred teams. And its those trainers who are the real beneficiaries of package deals. I don't think any informed observer thinks Boston's recent IFA success (read: Devers, Espinoza, etc.) is mainly or even significantly because of package deals. But it did appear to provide them with a leg-up on a couple highly-regarded IFAs in a year when their bonuses were capped. They broke the rules and got caught-- I'm having a hard time seeing all the outrage. I think the outrage is that if what he is saying is true, not only would the punishment be outrageous, but the punishment would be stiffer than what STL received... and what STL did could send someone to JAIL because they broke FEDERAL LAW .... So apparently I'm either terrible at Google or the punishment for hack-gate has been erased from the inter webs. Can someone enlighten me as to what the Cardinals punishment was?
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