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Post by cologneredsox on May 16, 2016 7:40:47 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on May 17, 2016 14:39:24 GMT -5
Read that the other day (yesterday?). Easily my favorite pitcher to watch, ever. Probably my favorite athlete to watch, for that matter. His 5 K/2IP in the ASG and the no-hit relief against Cleveland were two transcendent performances. I'll never forget the Cleveland fans going **DEAD** silent when he came in. Like the silence that follows a crowd viewing a traumatically gruesome event, only in this case (for Cleveland fans), that event was just starting.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,881
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 14:58:02 GMT -5
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Post by ericmvan on May 17, 2016 14:58:02 GMT -5
Read that the other day (yesterday?). Easily my favorite pitcher to watch, ever. Probably my favorite athlete to watch, for that matter. His 5 K/2IP in the ASG and the no-hit relief against Cleveland were two transcendent performances. I'll never forget the Cleveland fans going **DEAD** silent when he came in. Like the silence that follows a crowd viewing a traumatically gruesome event, only in this case (for Cleveland fans), that event was just starting. I had some time to kill yesterday and ended up in a bookstore (awesome Brookline Booksmith) reading the afterword to his autobiography, which is all about his HOF induction (which I had attended). It turns out that the great speech he gave was entirely improvised -- all he had was a list of people he wanted to mention. Walking back to the Coolidge Corner movie theater, my first thought was that it was ridiculous that the same person could have such generosity of spirit and yet be so competitive. It's a crazy combination. My next thought was, oh yeah, and add both ridiculous physical talent and a brilliant intelligence to that. All four of these things come together, and you get a guy who, at his peak, was so much better than the second-best person to ever do what he did that you really needed a new level of competition to make it fair. In fact, the 1999-2000 Pedro would have been the best pitcher in a league two levels above MLB; he dominated MLB batters the way you would expect Kershaw to dominate AA batters today. I'm not sure there's a comparable guy in the history of American pro sports, in terms of dominance at his position. (In fact, it's unclear that you can find a human being who was that much better than the second-best person to practice his art, craft, or talent.) That he is also a guy you could choose as a role model for the way people should act is not icing on the cake, it's another cake equally as great.
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 15:46:48 GMT -5
Post by brianthetaoist on May 17, 2016 15:46:48 GMT -5
IMO, Pedro is the best player in Boston sports history, and I don't think it's that close. Boston has had some GREAT players in Williams, Russell, Orr, and Bird, but Pedro to them is like those guys to Raymond Bourque. They're all great, but it's just a different level. [although, as an aside, I used to work in sports media, and Ray Bourque got the most glowing personal reports of any other athlete I've ever heard of. People who knew him *loved* Ray Bourque. i heard one guy say, without any irony or exaggeration, that Ray Bourque was a living saint]
And the fact that Pedro was a pitcher made the whole experience extra amazing. Pitchers dominate a game like no other position in sports. When they are on the mound, literally everything goes through them. Every single play starts with them. Basketball is the only thing even close - Jordan dominated every phase of 35 minutes of basketball a night - but it's still not nearly the same.
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ericmvan
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Posts: 8,881
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 16:02:04 GMT -5
Post by ericmvan on May 17, 2016 16:02:04 GMT -5
IMO, Pedro is the best player in Boston sports history, and I don't think it's that close. Boston has had some GREAT players in Williams, Russell, Orr, and Bird, but Pedro to them is like those guys to Raymond Bourque. They're all great, but it's just a different level. [although, as an aside, I used to work in sports media, and Ray Bourque got the most glowing personal reports of any other athlete I've ever heard of. People who knew him *loved* Ray Bourque. i heard one guy say, without any irony or exaggeration, that Ray Bourque was a living saint] And the fact that Pedro was a pitcher made the whole experience extra amazing. Pitchers dominate a game like no other position in sports. When they are on the mound, literally everything goes through them. Every single play starts with them. Basketball is the only thing even close - Jordan dominated every phase of 35 minutes of basketball a night - but it's still not nearly the same. Absolutely. I would add that they guy who is second, in terms of talent, is Orr. And I'm not a hockey fan at all. But a defenseman leading the league in points is just insane (or was in Orr's day). It's like a point guard leading the NBA in rebounding, if rebounding were more important than scoring. And of the other contenders for this honor, Orr was the most thrilling to watch. You've got a great sports town when, in terms of greatness, you have to leave either Orr or Pedro off of your Mt. Rushmore (Teddy, Russell, and Brady are the givens) and Bird and Yaz don't have a chance. Or when your second set is Pedro or Orr, Bird, Yaz, and Ortiz.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,154
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 16:07:35 GMT -5
Post by radiohix on May 17, 2016 16:07:35 GMT -5
The day the guy was scheduled to pitch, was the most special day of the week in New England. Hands down the greatest athlete I had the honor of watching live.
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Post by iakovos11 on May 17, 2016 18:13:31 GMT -5
IMO, Pedro is the best player in Boston sports history, and I don't think it's that close. Boston has had some GREAT players in Williams, Russell, Orr, and Bird, but Pedro to them is like those guys to Raymond Bourque. They're all great, but it's just a different level. [although, as an aside, I used to work in sports media, and Ray Bourque got the most glowing personal reports of any other athlete I've ever heard of. People who knew him *loved* Ray Bourque. i heard one guy say, without any irony or exaggeration, that Ray Bourque was a living saint] And the fact that Pedro was a pitcher made the whole experience extra amazing. Pitchers dominate a game like no other position in sports. When they are on the mound, literally everything goes through them. Every single play starts with them. Basketball is the only thing even close - Jordan dominated every phase of 35 minutes of basketball a night - but it's still not nearly the same. Absolutely. I would add that they guy who is second, in terms of talent, is Orr. And I'm not a hockey fan at all. But a defenseman leading the league in points is just insane (or was in Orr's day). It's like a point guard leading the NBA in rebounding, if rebounding were more important than scoring. And of the other contenders for this honor, Orr was the most thrilling to watch. You've got a great sports town when, in terms of greatness, you have to leave either Orr or Pedro off of your Mt. Rushmore (Teddy, Russell, and Brady are the givens) and Bird and Yaz don't have a chance. Or when your second set is Pedro or Orr, Bird, Yaz, and Ortiz. Boston simply needs a bigger mountain for their rushmore. I get Russell, but the hell do you leave off Bird? And you have to choose between Teddy Ballgame and Pedro? And Yaz had no chance. Insane. Just get a bigger mountain.
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 18:22:15 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jchang on May 17, 2016 18:22:15 GMT -5
Bird second tier?
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 19:09:06 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on May 17, 2016 19:09:06 GMT -5
Yeah, and as much as I love Pedro, he was arguably the best pitcher ever for about five years. Williams was arguably the best hitter ever for three times that long. Once Bird becomes second-tier, we're getting almost absurd. Comparing different eras, teams...lets just say we're pretty damn lucky.
I will admit, I saw Pedro whiff 15 Mariners in May '99 (went on a whim with a buddy from work who is a huge Yankees fan, but wanted to see Pedro live), and still remember the crack in the glove from way out in CF. I saw him go 8 and give up 1 or 2 hits another time, and strike out 12(?). He pitched very, very well every time I saw him. And the house was bumpin'.
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Pedro
May 17, 2016 19:12:46 GMT -5
Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2016 19:12:46 GMT -5
NM. Didn't mean to post. Sorry
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Post by tonyc on May 17, 2016 23:51:08 GMT -5
Folks, I absolutely loved Pedro. However, how many of you were Bruin fans at the time of Orr? He held onto the puck for most of the game. .there was no more dominant athlete in any position in any sport. They talk about a plus/minus of 20 being good and he was about plus 140 or so one year. And in terms of all around ability.. He played great defense, dove and covered the net as good as a goalie, played amazing offense, and was tough, a great fighter when called for. And in terms of excitement the only thing close in any sport was Gayle Sayers decking out everyone... Orr took the puck from behind the net and made amazing moves decking out an entire team going coast to coast. He clearly was the best at his sport, but was cursed that they didn't do scopes in those days, just total knee replacements so it was a shortened career. Finally, he singlehandedly changed defenseman from being defense only to playing everywhere- how many athletes can claim that legacy?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 18, 2016 4:27:59 GMT -5
I'd take Orr, Williams, Russell, Pedro, Bird, Roger, Boggs & Brady. In that order.
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Post by iakovos11 on May 18, 2016 7:01:24 GMT -5
No way Brady is behind Roger and Boggs. That's not even close, unless you hate Brady. Oh wait . . .
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Post by rjp313jr on May 18, 2016 7:36:40 GMT -5
What exactly is the Criteria because Red Auerbach and Bill Bellichick are on that mountain. But if we are talking only athletes there is no world in which Brady is behind Boggs and Clemens.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 8:56:11 GMT -5
Post by libertine on May 18, 2016 8:56:11 GMT -5
For me Pedro as an athlete is in the same company as Arnold Palmer. They were more than superstars of their respective sports, they were forces of nature...
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,881
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Post by ericmvan on May 18, 2016 12:16:31 GMT -5
What exactly is the Criteria because Red Auerbach and Bill Bellichick are on that mountain. But if we are talking only athletes there is no world in which Brady is behind Boggs and Clemens. We can have a separate mountain for owners and GMs -- in fact, for the combo thereof. It really takes them both for greatness. You have Walter Brown & Auerbach, Kraft & Bellichick, and JWH & Theo to begin with. Auerbach's unquestionably the greatest GM in NBA history, the Pats under Kraft and his chosen coach are in the running for football dynasties, and Theo's going to end up as an inner-circle baseball GM. As with the athletes, few cities have been so lucky. (Interesting to note that Auerbach, Kraft, and Theo are or were all Jewish, which means every one of these pairs has one Jew and one Gentile. Interesting, at least, to a fellow Jew!) (As an off-topic note, my Dad had a cousin who was a close business associate of Red's (this being back in the days when a guy like Red would work in the off-season in some other venture where his smarts would make him money). Which is how we ended up courtside (behind the basket) for Bill Russell's last game in Boston, game 6 of the '69 finals against the Lakers (although at the time everyone regarded it merely as Sam Jones' last game). What was funny was that my Dad had always mentioned this connection, and I think had used it a couple of times to get tickets for regular season games, but he had never previously used it to get them for any kind of important one. I actually remember him telling me, hey, I'd like to go to that game, I'll think I'll call so-and-so -- and my being really skeptical that it would work for a game this big. He scored 4 tix and I was able to bring a buddy. The ovation for Sam Jones when he was introduced went on forever -- imagine if we knew Russell was going to retire!)
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 16:46:49 GMT -5
Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2016 16:46:49 GMT -5
Kershaw is doing his best Pedro imitation this year with 88/4 K/BB so far.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 17:02:04 GMT -5
Post by ray88h66 on May 18, 2016 17:02:04 GMT -5
I hope it's ok to add this to a thread that has gone wide. I was watching the day Orr killed off more than a minuet when short handed. He skated up and down, didn't seem winded when he tossed the puck and went in for a change. Never saw anything like it before or since in sports. He looked like he was toying with the other team. Roger's first 20 k game is second with me.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 17:08:28 GMT -5
Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2016 17:08:28 GMT -5
I became a huge hockey fan during/after the 1994 baseball strike (and have abandoned it again) and delved way into history and stats. Orr was easily the best player in NHL history, better than Gretzky and Lemieux. He was similar to Babe Ruth in that regard.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 17:22:30 GMT -5
Post by threeifbaerga on May 18, 2016 17:22:30 GMT -5
Finally, he singlehandedly changed defenseman from being defense only to playing everywhere- how many athletes can claim that legacy? I think this is a very important thing to think about when considering where to rank players or teams or coaches in the past: innovation. Innovation can make a good coach great or a great coach an all-timer but I also think it's important to consider a persons impact on the game. Mike D'Antoni almost single-handedly changed the way the NBA plays basketball. He didn't win a single championship but I firmly believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame.
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Pedro
May 18, 2016 18:15:42 GMT -5
Post by tonyc on May 18, 2016 18:15:42 GMT -5
A close friend who used to write for Sports Ilustrated played me back a tape of an interview with Red Auerbach. When my friend asked Red a hypothetical, "what if" question, Red interrupted in his heavy accent with "if, if, if my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather."
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Pedro
May 19, 2016 4:46:56 GMT -5
Post by philsbosoxfan on May 19, 2016 4:46:56 GMT -5
No way Brady is behind Roger and Boggs. That's not even close, unless you hate Brady. Oh wait . . . Yes, putting him in my all time top 8 city/ multi sport sure shows a lot of hate. I prefer grading on individual comparative talents over team accomplishments. Yes I think Brady is good but he clearly wasn't even the best quarterback in the league during his NFL time. What do you think the 'team' record would have been if Peyton Manning was their QB ? Roger was a debate but only because of his last year here when he went on the Panda weight gain program. Prior to that he was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Boggs was an easy choice, the 2nd or 3rd best pure hitter in my lifetime. ADD: I completely forgot about the Braves and my two favorite baseball players growing up, Warren Spahn and Eddie Mathews. I'd probably put them around where I ranked Pedro & Bird.
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Pedro
May 19, 2016 5:26:31 GMT -5
Post by cologneredsox on May 19, 2016 5:26:31 GMT -5
I became a huge hockey fan during/after the 1994 baseball strike (and have abandoned it again) and delved way into history and stats. Orr was easily the best player in NHL history, better than Gretzky and Lemieux. He was similar to Babe Ruth in that regard. Really? I was about to ask that but forgot yesterday. Being from Germany and not that much of a hockey-fan I always thought Gretzky was kind of the MJ of hockey, aka the goat? Have to check Orrs stats.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 19, 2016 5:30:38 GMT -5
I became a huge hockey fan during/after the 1994 baseball strike (and have abandoned it again) and delved way into history and stats. Orr was easily the best player in NHL history, better than Gretzky and Lemieux. He was similar to Babe Ruth in that regard. Really? I was about to ask that but forgot yesterday. Being from Germany and not that much of a hockey-fan I always thought Gretzky was kind of the MJ of hockey, aka the goat? Have to check Orrs stats. Keep in mind that one of those two was a defenseman. That's like comparing stats for a pitcher vs a hitter. Soon after Wayne set the all time scoring record, the NHL Hall of Fame had a member vote for the all time greatest NHL player. Orr won in a total landslide. lol, no promises but I'll try to find the story, it was a very well written piece.
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Post by cologneredsox on May 19, 2016 5:33:38 GMT -5
Really? I was about to ask that but forgot yesterday. Being from Germany and not that much of a hockey-fan I always thought Gretzky was kind of the MJ of hockey, aka the goat? Have to check Orrs stats. Keep in mind that one of those two was a defenseman. That's like comparing stats for a pitcher vs a hitter. Soon after Wayne set the all time scoring record, the NHL Hall of Fame had a member vote for the all time greatest NHL player. Orr won in a total landslide. lol, no promises but I'll try to find the story, it was a very well written piece. I just realized that. Anyway, the plus/minus should be comparable, didn't check that yet. But interesting and I really like that a defenseman gets that much respect!
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