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How do you improve the Red Sox
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,438
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Post by nomar on Jun 27, 2016 16:34:29 GMT -5
What are your guys thoughts on acquiring Gio Gonzalez? MLBRumors suggested he might be on the chopping block when Strasburg comes back if Giolito pitches well. He may be a good buy-low candidate considering his FIP and history. If we could actually buy low id be for it.
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Post by antonio61 on Jun 27, 2016 18:52:21 GMT -5
Hi everyone I am very suffering watching the game again. Rays figure out Rays are kicking our *** as well. This should be a joke. Farrell out, Willis out, Buchholz out, Shake the tree and let some putrefaction falls.
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Post by trotfan on Jun 27, 2016 18:58:19 GMT -5
Hi everyone I am very suffering watching the game again. Rays figure out Rays are kicking our *** as well. This should be a joke. Farrell out, Willis out, Buchholz out, Shake the tree and let some putrefaction falls. really a scouting and coaching issue with this team in regards to pitching ...I would fire everyone from the head of scouting to the bull pen coach who obviously has no idea what he's seeing to Farrell a totally overrated manager who caught lightening in a bottle in 2013 ...blow this team up starting with Pedey ,Hanley ,Bucky,Taz,kojii and get back some young arms and talented coaches to develop them ...this is failure .
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 27, 2016 19:34:29 GMT -5
Hi everyone I am very suffering watching the game again. Rays figure out Rays are kicking our *** as well. This should be a joke. Farrell out, Willis out, Buchholz out, Shake the tree and let some putrefaction falls. really a scouting and coaching issue with this team in regards to pitching ...I would fire everyone from the head of scouting to the bull pen coach who obviously has no idea what he's seeing to Farrell a totally overrated manager who caught lightening in a bottle in 2013 ...blow this team up starting with Pedey ,Hanley ,Bucky,Taz,kojii and get back some young arms and talented coaches to develop them ...this is failure . I hate to say it...but I agree. Pedey will be a tragic loss but this is a business. Wait 2 years for another shot.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 27, 2016 19:39:36 GMT -5
That is pretty strong. He held onto Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Shaw, Swihart, Travis, Vasquez as well as Barnes, Hembree, Johnson, Light, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Varvaro and recently intimated that current top prospects (likely Benintendi, Devers, Moncada, and Espinoza, Kopech) are too costly for what is currently available in trade. He seems at least as interested in sustained success (by hanging on to and acquiring future game changers ... like Groome) as with Expos and Marlins, as he was in trading prospects to win now for an aging owner in Detroit. This Farm system is truly deep enough to trade for 2016 Reinforcements without sacrificing the future. Now that he held onto future core at C, 2b, 3B, SS, CF, RF, he does have room to maneuver to meet legitimate current needs; and has been careful in developing, evaluating, and showcasing team assetts. He seems neither reckless nor ruthless, nor a hoarder of redundant depth. I disagree. Benintendi, Moncada, Espinoza, Devers and the pitchers all fill team needs. You're not trading excess parts if you're trading for a top pitcher this year - you're mortgaging the future. Period. How do we not have some redundancy? In Boston we have C- Vasquez/Swihart(LF too) one of them could be traded although I'd prefer to wait a few years, Hanley @ 1B, Pedey @ 2B, Xander @ SS and Shaw @ 3B, LF-(Young/Holt), CF-JBJ, RF-Betts. Pablo will likely default to DH when he's back next year if they can't move him which is a large task indeed, if not Hanley? Benitendi can player anywhere in the OF and if we hold onto him he'd up up LF next year at some point, which makes Holt available, (I was advocating trading him this offseason when his value was at its likely peak)Moncado would likely move to 3B when he arrives, next season (making Shaw trade bait for 2018??)? and Devers 1b or is it Sam Travis so that makes Hanley and either Devers or Travis available as trade bait. Trading one of our top four hitting prospects should be looked into with an eye on next season as much as this season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2016 20:49:33 GMT -5
I would say E-Rod is kind of the key to what happens next month. I think after he got injured, he returned and changed his delivery because it was uncomfortable for him to pitch the way he had normally pitched. The results were pretty awful so now he's going back to what he was before. The initial results were encouraging even though he gave up 4 runs in 6 innings. He had the Ks going, his control was better and he wasn't that easy to hit. If the Red Sox get a very encouraging performance from him next month, good enough that makes you pretty confident that you'd want him to be one of your post-season starters, then the Sox are in a position where they really don't have to make a big move, and I think if that's the case, a lot of us will breathe a sigh of relief. I think we can agree that in a 7 game series, we'd be cool with sending David Price and Steven Wright out twice and don't have to think too much about it, even with Price's struggles last time. Porcello, I'd prefer to see once in that type of Series as I see him more as a #4 on a really good team, but he's hardly Al Nipper starting Game 4 of the World Series. He's a quality 4 or an OK 3 if it got down to it. If E-Rod can be that #3 guy that he resembled last season, that's a guy you'd want to ideally give two starts to in a 7 game series. And even better, his innings are down this year, so he could actually be at peak performance by time October rolls around. That would make a guy like him very dangerous - if he's right. In that scenario, all you need to do is upgrade the Buchholz/Kelly/O'Sullivan/Owens/Elias spot to something that is terrifying horrible. That places the bar much lower and insures that Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Kopech and many others remain in the Red Sox organization. If E-Rod fails to convey that confidence going forward by his performance over the next month, then the Red Sox are in big trouble and they're probably going to lose Devers, Espinoza or Kopech, and other valuable prospects to get Teheran, as the Braves know that quality starting pitching is limited on the market, and with Vizcaino as part of the deal, they can pretty much name their price - somebody will meet in - and there's a good chance that somebody will be Dombrowski, who'll be listening pretty closely to Frank Wren. So either they get a #3 masquerading as a #1/#2 right now or they lower the bar to get somebody who doesn't totally suck. Big difference. E-Rod is the guy that I would think would sway that decision. We know it won't be Buchholz, who has been absolutely awful and it won't be Kelly, who will never be what we hoped he'd be either. One thing is for sure, if E-Rod struggles next month, then Dombrowski is looking at a scenario where he will be forced into a trade where the cost will be quite painful. I don't want him to pay that price even if E-Rod pitches like Buchholz. But with two last place finishes, Ortiz's final season going on, and a mandate from his bosses to get them to the playoffs, I have no doubt Dombrowski will make his move (and two of the big 4 will go). If E-Rod doesn't re-establish himself, they won't have the starting pitching (which has been pretty awful all season long) to go far in the playoffs even if they do get there as one of the Wild Cards. Please E-Rod, save us from having this happen! Your 1st sentence says it all. If E-Rod spits the bit, we would have a huge problem. In Detroit, DD was under the pressure of his elderly owner who wanted a ring, no matter what. I am hoping (and praying) that he doesn't throw these top prospects even for a Gray type. He may becoming Anibal Sanchez soon. Trade for a "decent" #5 (Hellickson type) & LHH OF. Just don't trade your future for them. Well, I guess we got our answer. I have very little confidence the E-Rod is going to be alright this season. He obviously isn't right and the effects of the injury will linger for quite awhile. So now it's clear the Sox have an excellent pitcher who has been quite mediocre in Price who I anticipate will be more like his old self as the season wears on, a pitcher who has been excellent, but is likely to see a good deal of regression, and a decent workhorse pitcher who has his ups and downs. After that you get two spots in the rotation that have been worse than replacement level and has very little chance of being better than that. At this point, I don't think we'll see the good Clay, and if we do, it'll quickly be followed by injured Clay. Honestly his fastball isn't that good and it's hard to see him turning things around. Joe Kelly is a guy with great stuff who can't pitch. And there's reason to believe that E-Rod is not going to be himself this season. So that puts the Sox in a desperate state when it comes to making a trade. If people here thought the amount of talent given up for Kimbrel was bad, wait until they get Teheran. Thanks to Clay, Kelly, E-Rod, Owens, and Elias, the Red Sox will lose Devers, and will probably at best lose Kopech, and at worst lose Espinoza. I still hope the Sox can acquire Rich Hill, as I think he'll be cheaper to acquire, but even in that kind of trade the Sox are going to ultimately give up a lot more than they receive. If they do nothing, they're going to struggle to stay afloat with two spots in the rotation pitching as brutally as they have been. If they do something it might get them a playoff spot, but the cost will hurt them badly down the road. It's really a bad position to be in.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 27, 2016 21:05:51 GMT -5
At the very least they should table the "going all in" plan.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2016 21:09:38 GMT -5
At the very least they should table the "going all in" plan. If anything, I think it will make them more desperate. They're not "punting" their third straight season willingly.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 27, 2016 21:53:13 GMT -5
At the very least they should table the "going all in" plan. If anything, I think it will make them more desperate. They're not "punting" their third straight season willingly. One player won't fix this. Standing pat and punting are two different things. Trading away any of the top four prospects would be idiotic at this point unless they got a steal, which is highly unlikely given this extreme sellers market. The best predictor of future behavior is their previous behavior - the team didn't even go all in back in 2004, 2007 or 2013, I think its doubtful they mortgage the farm now. It just doesnt match up with what they've done in the past. Call me crazy but im glad they didn't trade ellsbury and lester for santana back in the day.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 27, 2016 21:59:23 GMT -5
Call me crazy but im glad they didn't trade ellsbury and lester for santana back in the day. Me too. But I'm also happy they traded Ramirez and Sanchez for Beckett and Lowell. And those Hamels packages (the ones that didn't include Betts or Bogaerts) that everyone was goofing on in the subforum thread last year every day seem a whole lot more reasonable now. The bigger problem is that there isn't a Santana, Hamels, or Beckett out there to be had. Teheran is a nice piece but he's not the kind of pitcher you consider parting with a Top-40 prospect for.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2016 22:15:31 GMT -5
If anything, I think it will make them more desperate. They're not "punting" their third straight season willingly. One player won't fix this. Standing pat and punting are two different things. Trading away any of the top four prospects would be idiotic at this point unless they got a steal, which is highly unlikely given this extreme sellers market. The best predictor of future behavior is their previous behavior - the team didn't even go all in back in 2004, 2007 or 2013, I think its doubtful they mortgage the farm now. It just doesnt match up with what they've done in the past. Call me crazy but im glad they didn't trade ellsbury and lester for santana back in the day. You're preaching to the choir here. Just because I said that I think the Sox are going to acquire Teheran (I'll actually be more surprised if they don't acquire than I would be if they did deal for him) doesn't mean that I think they SHOULD make a deal. I'm just thinking about what Dombrowski must be facing. He walks into a situation where they are coming off two last place seasons, the Red Sox are not as popular or perceived as important as they once were (I'm not talking fans like you or me), the ones that are vocal (think WEEI's demographics and the chat forums that Bosox89 wants to be part of), the Sox don't have a ton of money left to spend, and ownership doesn't want the Sox missing the playoffs again, which would make it six times in seven seasons (Thank God for 2013!!). Look at all those factors, and it's hard to see a scenario where Dombrowski doesn't make a move. He knows damn well that out of E-Rod, Buchholz, Kelly, and the rest of the AAA crew, that nobody is going to step in and be a credible starter, and he knows that the team could very well miss the playoffs or be a one and done team like the Yankees were last year. And he also knows they lose one of their best players next season. The Sox have other holes, but sooner or later Swihart or Holt or Young will get healthy enough to man LF or that getting a LF won't be that difficult. It's just a matter of time before De Aza is available for nothing again. They can live with Vazquez and Leon behind the plate this season. They have enough offense to be very good and if Hanley or Shaw heat up again, the offense could start mashing the ball enough to win some games, but without better pitching they won't go very far. It sucks. Devers and perhaps Espinoza or Kopech is going to pay the price for this.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 27, 2016 22:33:05 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're just overestimating the effect fan pressure will have. They won't do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal and the price for acquiring someone like Tehran sounds like it would take Moncada or Benintendi (maybe even both) who are only one year away anyway. Might as well just wait and then use some of the money from Ortiz, Buchholz, Koji, Taz, Hanigan etc in the offseason to get another hitter and starter.
They haven't gone all in at the deadline for a long time.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2016 23:09:59 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're just overestimating the effect fan pressure will have. They won't do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal and the price for acquiring someone like Tehran sounds like it would take Moncada or Benintendi (maybe even both) who are only one year away anyway. Might as well just wait and then use some of the money from Ortiz, Buchholz, Koji, Taz, Hanigan etc in the offseason to get another hitter and starter. They haven't gone all in at the deadline for a long time. I think you're underestimating the pressure to make the post-season and advance. The pressure is coming not only from the fans but I'd be pretty sure it's coming from ownership as well. Can't imagine Henry and Werner are cool with the idea of missing the playoffs for the 6th year out of 7. I actually think they could get Teheran for Espinoza and Devers and others, not that I want them to do that, but I think if they preserve Moncada and Benintendi, both of whom they'll need soon enough, then I think they can sell that they held onto their two best prospects (not that that will make you or me too happy). As far as the money you talk about saving, what free agent pitcher are they going to spend that money on? There's Rich Hill, but he's hardly a safe investment over the long-term (If Brandon McCarthy can get a 4 year deal, I'd guess Hill can at least get 3 years. I'd think that Beane would extend a QO - if he wasn't traded. I do think he'll be dealt, though. I could see Baltimore grabbing him. The market is just so thin for starting pitchers so they won't get much help there. As far as the offense goes, I could very well see them giving up a draft pick to sign Encarnacion to replace Ortiz. I like Encarnacion, but am not crazy about seeing them lose a draft pick in the 1st round of a strong draft class. I'd guess that they'll start with Hanley back at 1b. It's possible they could use Shaw and others in a deal for a pitcher, have Sandoval back at 3b to start next year and have him hold 3b until Moncada has transitioned to 3b and is ready to be called up. They could have Ramirez back at 1b holding the position until Sam Travis is ready, and even if they sign Encarnacion, should Ramirez struggle, they could bench him or release him (and Sandoval as well). Dombrowski doesn't mind eating other people's mistakes. He's already shown that. Free agent money won't be worth spending until the big winter of 2018-2019 when the Yankees have a ton of money to spend. Until then the free agent classes are thin. You mentioned they haven't gone all in at the deadline for a long time. Well consider that the circumstances are very different. Last time they were in contention for the post-season, they had Theo at the helm. Theo made the deal that sent away Nomar, almost sent Manny packing in 05, but instead dealt him in 08, and he got V-Mart in 09. Since then, the Sox have not been in serious contention for a playoff spot since Theo was here with the exception of 2013 when they already knew they were headed for October and only needed a minor tweaking (Peavy). This is a different GM facing different external circumstances (long time since playing post-season ball and having a tenuous hold on a potential post-season berth.)
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Post by blizzards39 on Jun 28, 2016 0:04:06 GMT -5
The lack of depth is killing this team. Who woulda thought.
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Post by burythehammer on Jun 28, 2016 5:07:19 GMT -5
The Braves are not getting a Moncada/Benintendi caliber prospect from anyone for Teheran. I don't want him period, but I have no concern about that happening.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 28, 2016 6:22:02 GMT -5
Tehran plays in perhaps the worst hitting division in baseball and his peripherals aren't that good. No way you give up Espinoza and Devers for him.
Getting a rental player like Rich Hill makes a lot more sense.
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Post by thursty on Jun 28, 2016 6:40:32 GMT -5
The Braves are not getting a Moncada/Benintendi caliber prospect from anyone for Teheran. I don't want him period, but I have no concern about that happening. Hah! You almost sound convinced
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Post by awall on Jun 28, 2016 6:58:36 GMT -5
I haven't seen Wilkerson yet. Do people who have think his stuff can play at the MLB level, or will he be just an up/down guy? Does it make more sense to try to sell high on him or give him a shot at Fenway?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,438
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Post by nomar on Jun 28, 2016 7:08:12 GMT -5
I haven't seen Wilkerson yet. Do people who have think his stuff can play at the MLB level, or will he be just an up/down guy? Does it make more sense to try to sell high on him or give him a shot at Fenway? Nobody is buying high because his stuff is pretty bad. He's an up and down guy. At the same rate he's just as good as Buchholz and Rodriguez right now.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 28, 2016 7:49:34 GMT -5
At the very least they should table the "going all in" plan. If anything, I think it will make them more desperate. They're not "punting" their third straight season willingly. Personally, I think this is just a combination of the lack of depth and a lot of the team slumping along with some bad luck and terrible managing. If these things are unable to be overcome, they don't really have a choice on whether they want to punt the season or not. Then again, it's not like they're chasing the 1927 Yankees...
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Post by Guidas on Jun 28, 2016 7:57:27 GMT -5
btw, I wonder where all the people went who were ripping on a few of us about a month ago who were calling for some significant changes and their retort was basically: "What's wrong with you!? This is a first place team with a historic offense!"
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 28, 2016 8:00:03 GMT -5
btw, I wonder where all the people went who were ripping on a few of us about a month ago who were calling for some significant changes and their retort was basically: "What's wrong with you!? This is a first place team with a historic offense!" This can go on all year, every year. There's no point. Teams have good streaks and bad streaks.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 28, 2016 8:24:53 GMT -5
At the very least they should table the "going all in" plan. If anything, I think it will make them more desperate. They're not "punting" their third straight season willingly. If so they are risking punting the next 5.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 28, 2016 8:26:05 GMT -5
btw, I wonder where all the people went who were ripping on a few of us about a month ago who were calling for some significant changes and their retort was basically: "What's wrong with you!? This is a first place team with a historic offense!" This can go on all year, every year. There's no point. Teams have good streaks and bad streaks. This is true but the way the Sox pitching has been manhandled game after game augers poorly.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,722
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Post by mobaz on Jun 28, 2016 9:28:50 GMT -5
I think what drives them to a move sooner than later (likely at great cost) is that there's no clear path to improvement NEXT year either. The free agent class is terrible, there's no way they are banking on steps forward from Owens/Johnson anymore, and the real pitching prospects are in A-ball. I think trading Benny is a bad idea given the current black hole in LF, but I think Devers is probably earmarked elsewhere.
I feel like standing pat or buying low is the best strategy (I think the offense is for real and we can scrounge a few hot starts from Buch/Kelly/Owens/E-Rod/Buy-low trad pickup), but I don't see it happening.
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