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Red Sox Select LHP Jason Groome (ADD: signed for $3.65M)
gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 16, 2016 14:37:16 GMT -5
Yeah, not buying this one bit. Every single piece of information we have heard since the draft has been positive; a perfect storm of reasons to want to be a Red Sock, his favorite team. Also a winning team with a top farm system full of talented peers for long term dominance, a large payroll, a reputation for taking care of pitchers and players and families, leadership in community involvement and charitable programs, commitment to reaching the post season ... Plus he will get his $$$. Not happy?
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jun 16, 2016 14:50:35 GMT -5
Yeah, not buying this one bit. Every single piece of information we have heard since the draft has been positive; a perfect storm of reasons to want to be a Red Sock, his favorite team. Also a winning team with a top farm system full of talented peers for long term dominance, a large payroll, a reputation for taking care of pitchers and players and families, leadership in community involvement and charitable programs, commitment to reaching the post season ... Pus he will vet his $$$. Not happy? Highly doubt Groome and co. deem going from $5M to $4M positive no matter the team.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 16, 2016 14:57:53 GMT -5
Yeah, not buying this one bit. Every single piece of information we have heard since the draft has been positive; a perfect storm of reasons to want to be a Red Sock, his favorite team. Also a winning team with a top farm system full of talented peers for long term dominance, a large payroll, a reputation for taking care of pitchers and players and families, leadership in community involvement and charitable programs, commitment to reaching the post season ... Pus he will vet his $$$. Not happy? Would you be cool with a 20% pay cut for these reasons?
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Post by myleskennefick on Jun 16, 2016 14:59:27 GMT -5
Posted this in another thread but it's applicable here as well:
Earlier this week I heard from a friend of mine in the industry that Groome had a deal in place later on in the round (provided he lasted that long, of course). He didn't give any specifics, so i don't know if the $5mil number is accurate or if it was the Padres.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jun 16, 2016 15:01:44 GMT -5
I thought a later quote in WEEI's story about what Law said on Olney's show was interesting and reassuring:
"It would be totally irrational for him to turn down $4 million in the first place, but looking at the 2017 draft class, it’s loaded with college pitching, which I think makes it unappealing for any player in this draft class to go to junior college or go back to college for one more year and sit out to come back in next year’s draft class. Your situation is probably better in this draft class than it is going to be in next year’s class.”
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jun 16, 2016 15:06:24 GMT -5
Posted this in another thread but it's applicable here as well: Earlier this week I heard from a friend of mine in the industry that Groome had a deal in place later on in the round (provided he lasted that long, of course). He didn't give any specifics, so i don't know if the $5mil number is accurate or if it was the Padres. Callis just said it was 5M from SD at pick 24
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Post by tonyc on Jun 16, 2016 15:17:59 GMT -5
Beautiful insight Mandelbro. A reason this site is great. I was starting to sicken that Groome was going to out-Machiavelli Lester and Ellsbury- who I loved as player but didn't like his greed, yet he is still a great asset to the Sox as the Yanks Panda.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 16, 2016 15:58:50 GMT -5
Every single piece of information we have heard since the draft has been positive; a perfect storm of reasons to want to be a Red Sock, his favorite team. Also a winning team with a top farm system full of talented peers for long term dominance, a large payroll, a reputation for taking care of pitchers and players and families, leadership in community involvement and charitable programs, commitment to reaching the post season ... Pus he will vet his $$$. Not happy? Would you be cool with a 20% pay cut for these reasons? First, it,s a signing bonus. Payroll comes later and the Sox are likely to pay better than San Diego, as well as more likely to. Keep him around for his career. Not to mention the fanbase, close to home, east coast ST and minor league teams and, again, a real chance to win vs. SD. Yes, if I could get $4M, and promise of a big contract, I would certainly pay that 1M to get what I want. Happiness and its components are worth more than a larger signing bonus. Is his agent cloning Boras? Or is his agent merely posturing?
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Post by azblue on Jun 16, 2016 16:16:16 GMT -5
Groome's advisor/agent is very inexperienced. He may be very clumsy in the way he handles this situation.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 16, 2016 16:26:46 GMT -5
Would you be cool with a 20% pay cut for these reasons? First, it,s a signing bonus. Payroll comes later and the Sox are likely to pay better than San Diego, as well as more likely to. Keep him around for his career. Not to mention the fanbase, close to home, east coast ST and minor league teams and, again, a real chance to win vs. SD. Yes, if I could get $4M, and promise of a big contract, I would certainly pay that 1M to get what I want. Happiness and its components are worth more than a larger signing bonus. Is his agent cloning Boras? Or is his agent merely posturing? This is all a moot point because he can't pick his team. We drafted him and he can come here or he can go to school with no guarantee that he'll get more than the offer he's getting now. And no guarantee that he doesn't get worse or get hurt.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 16, 2016 16:27:53 GMT -5
I still don't know if I believe there was a deal in place with SD @ 24 for $5mill. And even if there was, it seems ridiculous that Groome would fall that far. Hey if they wanted him so bad, they should have taken him at #8. It just doesn't add up to me. The video showed him being pretty psyched to be drafted by the Sox too.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 16, 2016 17:04:23 GMT -5
First, an apology. I'm probably defending a report that a) I don't know to be accurate and b) don't care if it bc it really has no impact on what is most important (Groome signing with Boston).
That being said (in response to why they didn't take him at 8), isn't this exactly the type of cat and mouse games that teams have to play?
If we use the "leading" mocks as a proxy for legitimate industry Intel (I don't have any sources in the baseball world so that's what I'm left with) we can generally be comfortable with the following being, at least, reasonable.
- SD was on Quantrill (some said 24, some said 8 on a deal, but all seemed to agree on interest.
- Groome could be dropping.
- if he did drop, some pundits were struggling to find a fit for him from the middle of the 1st round on. Once he got past a certain point (likely, SD missed on what that point was) the real threats to take him were the couple of teams that had significant pool money.
- Teams such as LAD and Tor were looking at Quantrill.
Based on those plausible pieces of information is it not plausible that SD felt that the only way to get both was PQ first, Groome 2nd?
I won't waste any more of your time on these counter arguments. I'm not even sure what I believe (and can only confirm that I don't KNOW ****). I just tend to cringe at the notion that something doesn't make sense when there are actually very realistic explanations (at least to the individual components, if not the conclusion).
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 16, 2016 19:22:50 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened:
The Padres are aware that Groome will be sliding and approach Groome about signing if he falls to 24. Groome's not enamored with playing for a lousy franchise on the West Coast, so he and his agent play hardball and negotiate a very sweet deal. This is a win-win. The worst-case scenario is that he slides that far and gets an extra million beyond what he was really looking for. But of course he hopes to be taken by a better team, and then they can make it known that he had a $5M deal, which they can use in negotiations.
Groome gets drafted by his favorite team and says some things that weaken his position. So his agent (as others have suggested) takes the true report about the done deal, and spins it as Groome being upset because he'll be leaving money on the table. IOW, the spin here is that going to the Sox for $4M+ was Groome's second choice and to the Padres for $5M was his first choice, when of course it was the other way around.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 16, 2016 21:17:58 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened: The Padres are aware that Groome will be sliding and approach Groome about signing if he falls to 24. Groome's not enamored with playing for a lousy franchise on the West Coast, so he and his agent play hardball and negotiate a very sweet deal. This is a win-win. The worst-case scenario is that he slides that far and gets an extra million beyond what he was really looking for. But of course he hopes to be taken by a better team, and then they can make it known that he had a $5M deal, which they can use in negotiations. Groome gets drafted by his favorite team and says some things that weaken his position. So his agent (as others have suggested) takes the true report about the done deal, and spins it as Groome being upset because he'll be leaving money on the table. IOW, the spin here is that going to the Sox for $4M+ was Groome's second choice and to the Padres for $5M was his first choice, when of course it was the other way around. I can see this scenario. It's hard to fake the excitement that was on the video when he found out he was drafted. I think that San Diego was certain somebody else would take Quantrill if they didn't and figured that if Groome got by them at 8, he'd still be there by time they picked again, although I would think that they would have considered that the Sox would pounce on him if given a chance. Of course, he comes out with a statement that is either as fake as they come or as genuine as they come and if it's the latter, that doesn't help his agent's desire to come as close as possible to the agreement they had with San Diego, so the agent leaks this stuff to try to up the ante with the Red Sox. I know it's part of the game, but I really can't stand agents. They're kind of nauseating.
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Post by tonyc on Jun 17, 2016 10:47:56 GMT -5
Agents have been called cockroaches with cell phones.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 17, 2016 11:04:47 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened: The Padres are aware that Groome will be sliding and approach Groome about signing if he falls to 24. Groome's not enamored with playing for a lousy franchise on the West Coast, so he and his agent play hardball and negotiate a very sweet deal. This is a win-win. The worst-case scenario is that he slides that far and gets an extra million beyond what he was really looking for. But of course he hopes to be taken by a better team, and then they can make it known that he had a $5M deal, which they can use in negotiations. Groome gets drafted by his favorite team and says some things that weaken his position. So his agent (as others have suggested) takes the true report about the done deal, and spins it as Groome being upset because he'll be leaving money on the table. IOW, the spin here is that going to the Sox for $4M+ was Groome's second choice and to the Padres for $5M was his first choice, when of course it was the other way around. So you buy the rumor that a $5M deal was agreed upon, even after agreeing to go overslot with Quantrill? That requires one of the following (or some combo of the following): - Extreme senior signs on their other 1st round pick, their 2nd round pick, and their other 2nd or 3rd round pick. Keep in mind that these bonuses would need to be so low that if the players did not sign, the Padres would not be compensated for these picks in the future. These strategy has never been done before. - Extreme senior sign on their other 1st round pick and all picks from 3-10 - Extreme senior sign on both 2nd round picks and rounds 3-10. Sure these possibilities are all technically feasible, but we've literally never seen a team sacrifice so much for one player. The only scenarios in which we've seen a player go 2-3M overslot is when that team's first pick in the draft comes in significantly underslot. I'm not buying that a 5M deal was agreed upon. Perhaps there was discussion. Perhaps the negotiations from the agent began at 5M. Perhaps by the time the Sox selected, negotiations were ongoing but not agreed upon, and the agent was holding onto a 5M demand. I find it highly, highly unlikely that the Padres agreed to that though. I mean Groome's agent has a soulpatch in 2016 for crying out loud....we should trust this guy?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 17, 2016 11:23:53 GMT -5
I think (hope) that Groome is going to sign around the deadline.
I do have a question I'm sure somebody here knows the answer to.
I know this won't happen, but say the Sox are willing to sign Groome to the point of going over the limit meaning they lose their first round pick next season.
What would happen if the Sox signed Encarnacion (who would turn down Toronto's QO) as a free agent? Would they also lose their 2nd round pick for signing Encarnacion or would it be a situation they lose their 1st round pick either way so might as well sign Encarnacion?
I would imagine it's the former (and they'd lose their 2nd round pick as well) and not the latter, but I was curious to hear what the answer was.
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Post by burythehammer on Jun 17, 2016 12:06:41 GMT -5
I still don't know if I believe there was a deal in place with SD @ 24 for $5mill. And even if there was, it seems ridiculous that Groome would fall that far. Hey if they wanted him so bad, they should have taken him at #8. It just doesn't add up to me. The video showed him being pretty psyched to be drafted by the Sox too. Being psyched in the moment because your boyhood dream has officially happened and you're surrounded by family and friends freaking out doesn't contradict Klaw's report at all, to me. And it's not like we're talking about Jim Bowden here. Law is a credible journalist. As long as he signs, does this matter one bit? We won't even remember it two years from now.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jun 17, 2016 13:21:11 GMT -5
I still think the agent is unhappy and the agent created this. His cut will be from $1mill less. I doubt Groome cares THAT much.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 17, 2016 15:52:32 GMT -5
This is another one of those "let's guess what he's thinking" debates that we get into with tons of prospects every year. Bring him a briefcase of cash and a stripper wearing a sexy Red Sox uniform holding the contract (pretend he's 18). How can he say no? Yes I'm kidding.
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Post by sammo420 on Jun 17, 2016 16:34:25 GMT -5
This is another one of those "let's guess what he's thinking" debates that we get into with tons of prospects every year. Bring him a briefcase of cash and a stripper wearing a sexy Red Sox uniform holding the contract (pretend he's 18). How can he say no? Yes I'm kidding. If he doesn't want them......... Discussion is what we do here. The only time I ever have a problem with it is when it gets way out of hand as far as people thinking unrealistically.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 17, 2016 17:39:14 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened: The Padres are aware that Groome will be sliding and approach Groome about signing if he falls to 24. Groome's not enamored with playing for a lousy franchise on the West Coast, so he and his agent play hardball and negotiate a very sweet deal. This is a win-win. The worst-case scenario is that he slides that far and gets an extra million beyond what he was really looking for. But of course he hopes to be taken by a better team, and then they can make it known that he had a $5M deal, which they can use in negotiations. Groome gets drafted by his favorite team and says some things that weaken his position. So his agent (as others have suggested) takes the true report about the done deal, and spins it as Groome being upset because he'll be leaving money on the table. IOW, the spin here is that going to the Sox for $4M+ was Groome's second choice and to the Padres for $5M was his first choice, when of course it was the other way around. So you buy the rumor that a $5M deal was agreed upon, even after agreeing to go overslot with Quantrill? That requires one of the following (or some combo of the following): - Extreme senior signs on their other 1st round pick, their 2nd round pick, and their other 2nd or 3rd round pick. Keep in mind that these bonuses would need to be so low that if the players did not sign, the Padres would not be compensated for these picks in the future. These strategy has never been done before. - Extreme senior sign on their other 1st round pick and all picks from 3-10 - Extreme senior sign on both 2nd round picks and rounds 3-10. Sure these possibilities are all technically feasible, but we've literally never seen a team sacrifice so much for one player. The only scenarios in which we've seen a player go 2-3M overslot is when that team's first pick in the draft comes in significantly underslot. I'm not buying that a 5M deal was agreed upon. Perhaps there was discussion. Perhaps the negotiations from the agent began at 5M. Perhaps by the time the Sox selected, negotiations were ongoing but not agreed upon, and the agent was holding onto a 5M demand. I find it highly, highly unlikely that the Padres agreed to that though. I mean Groome's agent has a soulpatch in 2016 for crying out loud....we should trust this guy? You know what makes complete sense, then? The $5M deal was for the #8 pick. The F.O. stayed up late debating Groome at that price, vs. Quantrill. They ultimately decided on Quantrill. Now, the agent goes into spin mode, and he's not completely lying when he says that Groome was upset at some point in the draft evening. They did indeed ask for an extra $1M to go where he didn't really want to go, but after that, he would get OK with the idea of the trade of happiness for bucks. After all, you did agree to it. But the reason why you're momentarily upset is that not being picked #8 after all is a surprise and a dis. Let's add two more things to your close-to-ironclad argument that the $5M cannot work at the #24 pick. -- They have to know what Groome wants at #8 to make this tough decision. And if they're smart, they say nothing about Quantrill, which means not being taken at 8 is indeed pretty much a surprise for Groome. -- The Padres couldn't really be so dumb as to think that the Sox, Yankees, Mets (who had 19 and 31), Dodgers (20, 32, and 36), and Cardinals (23, 33, and 34) would all pass on him. I mean, that's even less credible than the draft scenario. To understand the psychology, let's make Groome a 17-year-old girl who has a longtime crush on Bo, the cutest boy in school (captain of the debating team and the chess club, just for a change). But a dumb jock named Sandy asks her to the prom. She thinks she can do better, but it's no sure thing, so she agrees to go on the condition that he hires a limo. Next thing she hears is that he's taking some other girl .. well, of course she's upset. For a whole day, until Bo asks her. At which going her Dad says, hey I bet we can get Bo to hire a limo. Just tell him that Sandy was going to, before he stood you up, and that you're actually disappointed that you're settling for him. And she says, no, Dad, if it means so much to you, you tell him that.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 17, 2016 19:57:42 GMT -5
Posted this in another thread but it's applicable here as well: Earlier this week I heard from a friend of mine in the industry that Groome had a deal in place later on in the round (provided he lasted that long, of course). He didn't give any specifics, so i don't know if the $5mil number is accurate or if it was the Padres. Callis just said it was 5M from SD at pick 24 Preller is a crazy person.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 17, 2016 23:16:23 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened: The Padres are aware that Groome will be sliding and approach Groome about signing if he falls to 24. Groome's not enamored with playing for a lousy franchise on the West Coast, so he and his agent play hardball and negotiate a very sweet deal. This is a win-win. The worst-case scenario is that he slides that far and gets an extra million beyond what he was really looking for. But of course he hopes to be taken by a better team, and then they can make it known that he had a $5M deal, which they can use in negotiations. Groome gets drafted by his favorite team and says some things that weaken his position. So his agent (as others have suggested) takes the true report about the done deal, and spins it as Groome being upset because he'll be leaving money on the table. IOW, the spin here is that going to the Sox for $4M+ was Groome's second choice and to the Padres for $5M was his first choice, when of course it was the other way around. So you buy the rumor that a $5M deal was agreed upon, even after agreeing to go overslot with Quantrill? That requires one of the following (or some combo of the following): - Extreme senior signs on their other 1st round pick, their 2nd round pick, and their other 2nd or 3rd round pick. Keep in mind that these bonuses would need to be so low that if the players did not sign, the Padres would not be compensated for these picks in the future. These strategy has never been done before. - Extreme senior sign on their other 1st round pick and all picks from 3-10 - Extreme senior sign on both 2nd round picks and rounds 3-10. Sure these possibilities are all technically feasible, but we've literally never seen a team sacrifice so much for one player. The only scenarios in which we've seen a player go 2-3M overslot is when that team's first pick in the draft comes in significantly underslot. I'm not buying that a 5M deal was agreed upon. Perhaps there was discussion. Perhaps the negotiations from the agent began at 5M. Perhaps by the time the Sox selected, negotiations were ongoing but not agreed upon, and the agent was holding onto a 5M demand. I find it highly, highly unlikely that the Padres agreed to that though. I mean Groome's agent has a soulpatch in 2016 for crying out loud....we should trust this guy? I buy the reports, actually makes a ton of sense. Padres had a huge draft pool and could rather easily give him 5 million and with his talent it would be well worth it.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 17, 2016 23:44:12 GMT -5
Callis just said it was 5M from SD at pick 24 Preller is a crazy person. Just a random and essentially horrible GM. Maybe the best suit game in baseball though. Great wardrobe, horrible management. The Padres are just taking the good with the bad I guess.
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