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possible Red Sox and Braves blockbuster
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Post by ryantoworkman on Jun 24, 2016 10:49:43 GMT -5
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Post by sibbysisti on Jun 24, 2016 11:20:21 GMT -5
One of the three mentions that he would surrender Benintendi but not Moncada and that Yoan should only be moved if the return is a Fernandez or someone of that calibre.
I tend to agree. It would take more than Benny, of course, to pry Tehran and Vizcaino from the Braves. Worth while exploring.
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Post by brendan98 on Jun 24, 2016 11:50:09 GMT -5
I'd rather deal from our depth, the Braves have pitching prospects so need hitting, I'd offer some combination of Devers, Chavis, Travis, Basabe and Ockimey. Unfortunately the Braves don't need a 1B, you may have to substitute Swihart for Travis and Ockimey.
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Post by mannofsteele on Jun 24, 2016 12:02:00 GMT -5
I don't believe at all in Teheran. His stuff doesn't play up to his name value. I wouldn't part with any of: Moncada, Benintendi, Espinoza, or Devers. I also would be wary to trade Kopech. If it's from pieces outside of that, then the interest is there.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 24, 2016 12:14:12 GMT -5
For them to give up Benny Baseball + for Teheran, scouts must see Teheran as worth it. I don't think they make that move on a whim. There must be something there. I'd trade Devers, Owens, Basabe.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,414
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Post by ianrs on Jun 24, 2016 12:17:40 GMT -5
This is the type of trade that turns us into the future Diamondbacks rather than the future Cubs. No thanks, hard pass.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 24, 2016 12:25:04 GMT -5
This trade scenario is one of my biggest fears. The Braves could wind up with at least Devers and Espinoza.
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 24, 2016 12:48:48 GMT -5
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 24, 2016 13:14:11 GMT -5
This would be so stupid. We need pitching, a power bat, another outfielder and a third baseman of the future - thats where Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Espinoza and Groome come in. They may not all hit but we wasted so much money in poor contracts that cheaper players will be needed in the future.
Why is this even being discussed? I really don't understand in this city why people want to gut the farm system every freaking year. The goal should be to be a team like the Cardinals, competitive every year.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 24, 2016 13:41:46 GMT -5
I don't believe at all in Teheran. His stuff doesn't play up to his name value. I wouldn't part with any of: Moncada, Benintendi, Espinoza, or Devers. I also would be wary to trade Kopech. If it's from pieces outside of that, then the interest is there. Yeah, Teheran has been an FIP-beater, and he's unlikely to maintain it. One need look no further than Jake Peavy to see what happens to command-flyball pitchers in an AL (East especially)-NL transition. Eno Sarris has a nice article here: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/is-julio-teheran-an-ace/I like Vizcaino, but I think the Sox would be WAY better off just acquiring him. Teheran looks like a 3 at best in Fenway to me, but the Braves are going to ask like he's a 1a/2.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 24, 2016 13:43:44 GMT -5
Also, Jim Bowden strikes me as a dolt.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 24, 2016 14:45:49 GMT -5
This would be so stupid. We need pitching, a power bat, another outfielder and a third baseman of the future - thats where Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Espinoza and Groome come in. They may not all hit but we wasted so much money in poor contracts that cheaper players will be needed in the future. Why is this even being discussed? I really don't understand in this city why people want to gut the farm system every freaking year. The goal should be to be a team like the Cardinals, competitive every year. And look at how quickly they turn on players after they've been overpaid for. They want their goose to lay golden eggs and they want it now. I have more patience after waiting 86 years for a championship. It seems the fanbase is starting to split between those too young to remember pre-2004 and the rest of us.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 24, 2016 14:56:09 GMT -5
I think its a mistake to classify it as a young and old thing. I'm in my mid twenties and favor a slow build approach. You listen to sports radio at all and you'll hear lots of older folks call in who just want to gut the farm system for an established name or two that they recognize. You'll frequently hear the phrase "its only prospects" and "they often don't pan out"
What they fail to realize is a lot of the established players also don't pan out and the team needs a pipeline of young talent due to the massive bust signings of Cherington and ownership.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jun 24, 2016 15:45:28 GMT -5
I sure hope Dombroski and Wren do not mortgage the future of the Red Sox by trading guys such as Benintendi, Devers, Swihart Kopech, etc for someone such as Teheran as he will get crushed in Fenway Park. This team is certainly better than the last couple of years but they are not good enough to to contend for playoff spot this year and it makes no sense to clean out the farm system for potential #3 starters such as Teheran.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 24, 2016 16:37:08 GMT -5
I think its a mistake to classify it as a young and old thing. I'm in my mid twenties and favor a slow build approach. You listen to sports radio at all and you'll hear lots of older folks call in who just want to gut the farm system for an established name or two that they recognize. You'll frequently hear the phrase "its only prospects" and "they often don't pan out" What they fail to realize is a lot of the established players also don't pan out and the team needs a pipeline of young talent due to the massive bust signings of Cherington and ownership. I think both you and JimEd hit on an interesting subject. I believe there is a divide among the younger/older fans, but I think it works this way. And I'm stereotyping - didn't have enough time to do a Quinnipiac poll or anything like that. I think that there are a lot of younger fans who are more sabermetrically inclined than a lot of the older fans. I think those younger fans are more patient and willing to rebuild or wait for a winner. A lot of these fans have no idea what the angst was like for a lot of the older fans. I think the sense of loss is lesser for them. I think among a lot of older fans you have cynicism and inpatience. It's almost like it doesn't matter that they won 3 times. They are so inbred with the feeling of loss and aggravation that sometimes they can't stop just to appreciate the good times. It's almost like habitual that they complain about everything that goes wrong. And a lot of these fans don't have patience to rebuild. I mean, the world is going to end tomorrow, isn't it? When you are older, you do tend to want things to happen sooner because tomorrow is less guaranteed, but we're talking a lot of fans who have no trust in statistical analysis and everything is the reactionary eyeball test. I think the younger fans gear toward statistical analysis but miss out on the eyeball test, which can still have some validity. That's my impression, but it certainly doesn't fit most in this site, and it doesn't even really fit me, either. I'm in my mid 40s and after 1986 broke my heart I was convinced that I'd simply be the next generation that wouldn't live to see the Red Sox win it all. I knew the collapse at the Stadium in 2003 Game 7 was going to happen before it happened. My father had/has been a fan since that late 40s and hadn't seen them win. They didn't win in my grandfather's lifetime either - fortunately for him, he was a Yankees fan. Since they've won what has changed for me is I no longer fantasize about how they can win someday, but rather remember the events of 2004, 2007, and 2013 (particularly 2004) and they trump whatever crap has happened or will happen (for a lot of the older generation, sadly that's not the case). I mean, it doesn't totally go away - 2011 stirred up a lot of feelings I don't believe in being totally negative or being Pollyanna - I try to stay in the center, but my gut (and instincts from experience) does take over and a lesson I've learned watching this team is that they are at their worst when you have great expectations and at its best when you expect the worst. I think the best thing is that I appreciate the championships more than I thought I could because I know how impossible it seemed (and that's tougher to do when you haven't waited more than a few years to see ultimate victory the way the younger fans have so I don't know that they can appreciate it as much). So, if the best course is to hang onto the kids and wait, then that's what they should do, and when it comes to this rumor, that's exactly what they should do. I can be patient.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 24, 2016 16:42:57 GMT -5
I sure hope Dombroski and Wren do not mortgage the future of the Red Sox by trading guys such as Benintendi, Devers, Swihart Kopech, etc for someone such as Teheran as he will get crushed in Fenway Park. This team is certainly better than the last couple of years but they are not good enough to to contend for playoff spot this year and it makes no sense to clean out the farm system for potential #3 starters such as Teheran. I agreed with all of that until you got to the "not good enough to contend" part. They lead the AL in run differential, and are second in MLB, (way) behind the juggernaut Cubs. They also lead MLB in runs scored, despite slumping badly recently. They *are* contending. They're 1.5 out, and first in the WC race. They're something like 4 games ahead of the second WC race. Their second-best (arguably) pitcher entering the year showed dramatically improved stuff in his last start and looks fully back from a *nasty* (ever seen patellar subluxation? Dislocated kneecap...its gross) injury. They're contending already. But, I agree that Teheran is likely to make essentially zero difference in terms of a playoff run. Worst acquisition idea of the year. A month ago, Cleveland was done, supposedly. Except Trevor Bauer has suddenly become one of the top-3 pitchers in baseball over his last 10 starts or so, leading all of baseball in pitcher WAR the last month. Suddenly everyone's talking about how good Cleveland is. It's early. The Sox have hung tough despite pitching woes and managerial gaffes. I like their chances, and I don't see Teheran improving them significantly in any way.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 24, 2016 16:55:11 GMT -5
I think its a mistake to classify it as a young and old thing. I'm in my mid twenties and favor a slow build approach. You listen to sports radio at all and you'll hear lots of older folks call in who just want to gut the farm system for an established name or two that they recognize. You'll frequently hear the phrase "its only prospects" and "they often don't pan out" What they fail to realize is a lot of the established players also don't pan out and the team needs a pipeline of young talent due to the massive bust signings of Cherington and ownership. I think both you and JimEd hit on an interesting subject. I believe there is a divide among the younger/older fans, but I think it works this way. And I'm stereotyping - didn't have enough time to do a Quinnipiac poll or anything like that. I think that there are a lot of younger fans who are more sabermetrically inclined than a lot of the older fans. I think those younger fans are more patient and willing to rebuild or wait for a winner. A lot of these fans have no idea what the angst was like for a lot of the older fans. I think the sense of loss is lesser for them. I think among a lot of older fans you have cynicism and inpatience. It's almost like it doesn't matter that they won 3 times. They are so inbred with the feeling of loss and aggravation that sometimes they can't stop just to appreciate the good times. It's almost like habitual that they complain about everything that goes wrong. And a lot of these fans don't have patience to rebuild. I mean, the world is going to end tomorrow, isn't it? When you are older, you do tend to want things to happen sooner because tomorrow is less guaranteed, but we're talking a lot of fans who have no trust in statistical analysis and everything is the reactionary eyeball test. I think the younger fans gear toward statistical analysis but miss out on the eyeball test, which can still have some validity. That's my impression, but it certainly doesn't fit most in this site, and it doesn't even really fit me, either. I'm in my mid 40s and after 1986 broke my heart I was convinced that I'd simply be the next generation that wouldn't live to see the Red Sox win it all. I knew the collapse at the Stadium in 2003 Game 7 was going to happen before it happened. My father had/has been a fan since that late 40s and hadn't seen them win. They didn't win in my grandfather's lifetime either - fortunately for him, he was a Yankees fan. Since they've won what has changed for me is I no longer fantasize about how they can win someday, but rather remember the events of 2004, 2007, and 2013 (particularly 2004) and they trump whatever crap has happened or will happen (for a lot of the older generation, sadly that's not the case). I mean, it doesn't totally go away - 2011 stirred up a lot of feelings I don't believe in being totally negative or being Pollyanna - I try to stay in the center, but my gut (and instincts from experience) does take over and a lesson I've learned watching this team is that they are at their worst when you have great expectations and at its best when you expect the worst. I think the best thing is that I appreciate the championships more than I thought I could because I know how impossible it seemed (and that's tougher to do when you haven't waited more than a few years to see ultimate victory the way the younger fans have so I don't know that they can appreciate it as much). So, if the best course is to hang onto the kids and wait, then that's what they should do, and when it comes to this rumor, that's exactly what they should do. I can be patient. I have a similar story. I remember waking up the day after game 7 in '86 and being excited for game 7 that night. My mind had literally erased the trauma, if only for 15-20 seconds. But I grew up following the minors, and I've followed baseball long enough to see that deadline deals are almost invariably a swindle for the team dealing the veteran. Maybe I'm tainted by the Larry Andersen debacle (Bagwell was my favorite minor leaguer, even over Mo Vaughn, at that time), but that's been my observation. I find the "some/most prospects don't pan out" argument to be probably the stupidest in baseball...because some teams making deadline deals don't make the playoffs, and most don't win the WS. So what was it all for? Usually, several more years of middling performance, requiring repeated deadline deals for one-and-done playoff exits ('88, '90, '95 Sox) that erode the team's talent base and has them end up looking like this year's Angels organization. For me, it has little to do with statistical analysis and everything to do with common sense. If a team can't/won't/doesn't try to develop its own core, it will forever be stuck in the netherworld of 78-84 wins. Struggle now, triumph later. When the pipeline is built and the core entrenched, deal veterans to replenish the pipeline.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 24, 2016 16:58:35 GMT -5
My favorite recent example: Miller-Rodriguez. People say "both teams got what they wanted." No, the Red Sox got what they wanted. Baltimore got the heartbreak of an early boot from the playoffs (which they may very well have made without Miller), and the pleasure of seeing their mistake several times a year for the next five years. If they'd won the WS, then they would've gotten what they wanted. As it was, all they did was delay getting squat by a week.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 24, 2016 22:21:27 GMT -5
This would be so stupid. We need pitching, a power bat, another outfielder and a third baseman of the future - thats where Moncada, Devers, Benintendi, Espinoza and Groome come in. They may not all hit but we wasted so much money in poor contracts that cheaper players will be needed in the future. Why is this even being discussed? I really don't understand in this city why people want to gut the farm system every freaking year. The goal should be to be a team like the Cardinals, competitive every year. And look at how quickly they turn on players after they've been overpaid for. They want their goose to lay golden eggs and they want it now. I have more patience after waiting 86 years for a championship. It seems the fanbase is starting to split between those too young to remember pre-2004 and the rest of us. Haha how old are you?
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Post by telson13 on Jun 25, 2016 12:02:51 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Jun 25, 2016 12:06:41 GMT -5
And look at how quickly they turn on players after they've been overpaid for. They want their goose to lay golden eggs and they want it now. I have more patience after waiting 86 years for a championship. It seems the fanbase is starting to split between those too young to remember pre-2004 and the rest of us. Haha how old are you? Hahaha! Weren't you just complaining about *him* antagonizing *you*? Then there was some challenge to a fight, and breakfast?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 25, 2016 12:29:01 GMT -5
Hahaha! Weren't you just complaining about *him* antagonizing *you*? Then there was some challenge to a fight, and breakfast? I never challenged him to a fight, just to meet face to face and if I remember right it was lunch not breakfast. I think it's a fair question when someone says they waited 86 years for a championship and us younger guys don't remember anything pre 2004. I surely remember the heartbreak of 2003 and the riot that followed at UMASS.
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Post by humanbeingbean on Jun 25, 2016 12:34:10 GMT -5
I'd be happy to entertain the idea of Vizcaino, but I'd not at all want to engage in any sort of talks about Teheran. All I could imagine is Benintendi being the starting left fielder for the Braves and Kopech on the hill when they win the 2019 World Series.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 25, 2016 13:01:47 GMT -5
Hahaha! Weren't you just complaining about *him* antagonizing *you*? Then there was some challenge to a fight, and breakfast? I never challenged him to a fight, just to meet face to face and if I remember right it was lunch not breakfast. I think it's a fair question when someone says they waited 86 years for a championship and us younger guys don't remember anything pre 2004. I surely remember the heartbreak of 2003 and the riot that followed at UMASS. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about people who don't remember what it was like to be in that 86 year streak and never lived through the heartaches.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jun 25, 2016 14:35:22 GMT -5
Jon Heyman @jonheyman 6m6 minutes ago Jon Heyman Retweeted Robert Murray current belief: vizcaino likely to go somewhere, teheran may still stayJon Heyman added,
Robert Murray @robertmurraybbe #RedSox senior VP of Baseball Ops. Frank Wren is in Atlanta to scout #Braves' Teheran, Vizcaino
I hope any movement with either pitcher doesn't involve Moncada or Beni
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