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possible Red Sox and Braves blockbuster
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Post by dnfl333 on Jun 25, 2016 14:45:23 GMT -5
I think its a mistake to classify it as a young and old thing. I'm in my mid twenties and favor a slow build approach. You listen to sports radio at all and you'll hear lots of older folks call in who just want to gut the farm system for an established name or two that they recognize. You'll frequently hear the phrase "its only prospects" and "they often don't pan out" What they fail to realize is a lot of the established players also don't pan out and the team needs a pipeline of young talent due to the massive bust signings of Cherington and ownership. So your saying all those big signings were bust hey Allard... Wow, great insight there.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 26, 2016 7:26:07 GMT -5
There is absolutely no chance I want to give up anyone the calibre of Benintendi, Moncada, Espinoza or Devers for Teheran or, quite literally, any relief pitcher (it's why I wasn't and am not a fan of the Kimbrel trade). Also, on Teheran specifically, he has a 5.13ERA in his career against the American Leauge, covering about 13 starts. While this is admittedly a small sample size, it is large enough to make me believe he would not fare well at all against the far deeper line ups.
There are a small handful of pitchers (all starters) that might be reasonably available and be worth moving a package involving those four players - none of them are in Atlanta.
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Post by joshmoody23 on Jun 26, 2016 7:59:40 GMT -5
I actually like Teharan and think he is probably the best available starting pitching option. His contract and years of control make him highly desirable. The issue obviously, is that you don't know for sure what you are getting. The Braves will want top of the rotation type of return. The Sox will want to deal for a controllable 3rd starter return (which is probably what he is in the AL east).
If the package was centered around Devers, and the AAA guys who haven't quite made the jump to the MLB successfully, then I am all for it.
For Teharan alone, I would offer Rafael Devers, (Trey Ball OR Travis Lakins), Henry Owens, and the Braves choice of (Deven Marrero, Nick Longhi, Mauricio Dubon, Luis Alexander Basabe and Pat Light)
If Viscaino was included, would like have to swap out Trey Ball with someone like Anderson Espinoza or Kopech.
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Post by joshmoody23 on Jun 26, 2016 8:08:57 GMT -5
Obviously I would call it a pipe dream but the 5 players I would like to retain at the deadline and still get a useful piece include in no order are
1. Yoan Moncada 2. Andrew Benintendi 3. Sam Travis 4. Blake Swihart 5. Anderson Espinoza
Guys I personally would deal Michael Kopech Rafael Devers Travis Lakins Henry Owens (value low) Christian Vasquez (value low) Ryan Hanigan (no value) Clay Buchholz (no value) Noe Ramirez (no value)
Guys I would be hesitant to deal Marco Hernandez Brock Holt Michael Chavis Josh Ockimey Brian Johnson Trey Ball
I know the list is rather obvious and most of us agree on most of the guys but just some thoughts
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 26, 2016 8:53:27 GMT -5
I actually like Teharan and think he is probably the best available starting pitching option. His contract and years of control make him highly desirable. The issue obviously, is that you don't know for sure what you are getting. The Braves will want top of the rotation type of return. The Sox will want to deal for a controllable 3rd starter return (which is probably what he is in the AL east). If the package was centered around Devers, and the AAA guys who haven't quite made the jump to the MLB successfully, then I am all for it. For Teharan alone, I would offer Rafael Devers, (Trey Ball OR Travis Lakins), Henry Owens, and the Braves choice of (Deven Marrero, Nick Longhi, Mauricio Dubon, Luis Alexander Basabe and Pat Light) If Viscaino was included, would like have to swap out Trey Ball with someone like Anderson Espinoza or Kopech. You're not far off from what I was thinking last night. I think the Braves and Red Sox could make a deal, and maybe the Sox can do it without including Moncada or Benintendi or even Espinoza (although I'm doubtful about Espinoza). Perhaps Devers, Kopech, Owens, Light, and a guy like Washington or Dubon could make a Teheran/Vizcaino deal work. I'm not sure the Braves would do this deal - they might demand Espinoza, and from a Red Sox perspective I'd be unhappy about losing Devers and Kopech, and would prefer they don't do something like this, but the Red Sox would probably make this deal rationalizing that Devers is behind Moncada on the depth chart and that Chavis is emerging (although I don't think he's better than Devers), that Kopech's potential is replaced by Teheran's certainty and that Vizcaino is desperately needed for the pen, and that both are in their mid 20s with a good amount of contractual control left more a very reasonable price. The Braves might do the deal if they think that Owens can step into the rotation at some point soon - his numbers do look good at AAA, but the Braves would have to think he can command enough to be somebody who can step into the rotation soon and Kopech has that big arm who could replace Teheran down the road. Pat Light has to be somebody the Braves think can replace Vizcaino soon and the Braves I would think would be interested in Devers' potential middle of the order bat at a position that's open for them for the foreseeable future (unless I'm missing a hot 3b prospect of theirs, which I just might be missing), and that Washington, if he gets his K/BB ratio improved, could be an OF with some strong power tools, or they like Dubon as a 2b down the road. Or maybe they demand Ockimey as a potential successor to Freeman. I wouldn't be too thrilled to give up that much power between Ockimey and Devers. Especially with Kopech. Maybe the Braves demand Espinoza instead of Kopech and the deal gets done that way - I'll be really, really ticked if that happens, and me, as a Red Sox, would not make the deal as I laid it out. I'm a big believer in Devers and his LH bat, and I want to see Espinoza, Groome, and Kopech head up the rotation in 5 years. I guess the big question if they got Teheran is would he continue to beat his FIP by a great deal? I'd guess no, but it is kind of amazing he's done it this long. For 2016, this trade would help the Sox out, no doubt, but I'd be really worried about what happens down the line with this deal if Teheran winds up being another Porcello type, decent but hardly worth what was given up in a deal for.
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Post by bigpupp on Jun 26, 2016 10:18:12 GMT -5
Cafardo also thinks Kopech is a lefty in that article. He's not exactly firing on all cylinders.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Jun 26, 2016 10:20:35 GMT -5
While ultimately I don'think I'd "like" it, I could be talked into the idea of Devers being the big piece in the middle of a trade for Teheran. While his stats against the AL are as bad as I cited, that is mostly from his horrendous season last year (against the AL), and I fully admit that good players can have bad years. I don't dislike Teheran, I just don't think he's worth the cost of one of our top three prospects.
That said, I agree with other posters who have surmised that Teheran will be the best pitcher moved at the deadline this year. I think of him more in line with Porcello (so a number 3 starter in the AL East) as opposed to a clear top of the rotation starter, and I belive that due to the lack of supply, he'd probably come at number 1 starter costs of prospects.
If a deal could be made from pieces including Devers, Owens, Swihart, Kopech, Basabe, etc, then he's probably worth the shot. Once we get up into the territory of including the top three, however, I'd hold off. I only want those guys moved for true number 1 starters with mutliple years of team control and I don't see Teheran in that category.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 26, 2016 11:02:21 GMT -5
I actually like Teharan and think he is probably the best available starting pitching option. His contract and years of control make him highly desirable. The issue obviously, is that you don't know for sure what you are getting. The Braves will want top of the rotation type of return. The Sox will want to deal for a controllable 3rd starter return (which is probably what he is in the AL east). If the package was centered around Devers, and the AAA guys who haven't quite made the jump to the MLB successfully, then I am all for it. For Teharan alone, I would offer Rafael Devers, (Trey Ball OR Travis Lakins), Henry Owens, and the Braves choice of (Deven Marrero, Nick Longhi, Mauricio Dubon, Luis Alexander Basabe and Pat Light) If Viscaino was included, would like have to swap out Trey Ball with someone like Anderson Espinoza or Kopech. His pitching style and liklihood to add minimal value make him completely undesirable, anywhere remotely close to what they'll ask for him.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jun 26, 2016 12:03:26 GMT -5
I wonder if the Braves could be talked into trading Freeman. We'd have good use for him in general and with Papi retiring, and Freeman is starting to get expensive and at 27 may be too expensive or not around by the time the Braves are actually good. I would be willing to trade from our top prospects to make that happen. Or, perhaps do to roster space maybe we can pursue Freeman in the offseason.
Otherwise, depending on how long Young is out, I imagine that we can add Markakis to the Teheran/Vizcaino deal as he is owed a lot of money (for Atlanta) and is unlikely to be a part of their long term plans turning 33. The extra money might allow us to sneakily keep one of our better prospects.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 26, 2016 13:12:43 GMT -5
Cafardo also thinks Kopech is a lefty in that article. He's not exactly firing on all cylinders. I hadn't noticed that on first read. I think by that point I was completely tuned out. But yeah, more evidence of just how knowledgable he *isn't*.
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Post by trotfan on Jun 26, 2016 18:20:47 GMT -5
I'm in the camp you don't ever repeat the Bagwell situation ....ever and Benny and Moncada are untouchable and that includes Greinke or the kid in Miami ....but and this will not go over well ...Hanley ? Pedey ,Bucky,Vaz,Shaw,and here we go Wright yes wright why because and this is a huge if this team was to make it do you trust any catcher besides maribelli recarnate to stop a ball bases loaded game on the line 1 out ? yeah me either so he's on the block but only to fill multiple holes in a trade ....Moncada ,Benny,Bogey,Betts,JBJ are the teams new core yes I excluded Pedey and yes he and Wright would also bring back what this team may need to dominate for years .
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 27, 2016 8:00:36 GMT -5
Honestly before they go trading for Vizcaino I'd like to see Pat Light get a legit chance with the team. He's been on a pretty solid roll lately, six hits and four walks in his last 12, more K than IP.
He is the shortest route to the power reliever they seem to need, I feel like it should be at least traveled before they go trading him plus more talent for Vizcaino. If they need a power righty with control problems, why not try out the one they have first?
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Post by cto94 on Jun 27, 2016 12:05:04 GMT -5
I have to say, if you look at his batted ball numbers, this year looks like a massive fluke for Teheran. GB% fell from last year to this one, hard contact rate has jumped 3 percentage points, and his BABIP allowed is .209 vs. a career of .270. And last year was the worst year of his career. I want no part of him unless he could be gotten for the type of return one might give up for a #3 or 4 guy. The idea of dealing any of our top 5 prospects for him seems like a guaranteed loser in the long term.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 27, 2016 12:59:57 GMT -5
IMO, right now, Kopech could probably replicate what Teheran could give you in Boston. I'm aware he can't give you a full season yet, just talking about stuff. Kopech could be the next Thor. I'm sure the Blue Jays love to see Syndergaard throwing 99 & have knee buckling breaking stuff for another 5 years. This is what happens when you "go for it".
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Post by jmei on Jun 27, 2016 13:16:46 GMT -5
What? Yes, Kopech throws hard, but his control/command, secondary stuff, and pitchability are nowhere near MLB ready and nowhere near Syndergaard level.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 27, 2016 13:38:02 GMT -5
I never said he could replicate Syngergaard.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,440
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Post by nomar on Jun 27, 2016 13:47:55 GMT -5
I have no interest in Teheran, but Kopech's idiocy grade is just as high as his fastball's. He's far from a sure thing.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 27, 2016 14:23:43 GMT -5
IMO, Kopech has made one "idiotic" mistake in his tenure with the Sox. I don't lump in the PED as him being an idiot. That was just a mistake. I guess I'm just tired of hearing about our top level guys--- "He only throws 89 but he has a good curveball & good change up".
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,948
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Post by jimoh on Jun 27, 2016 18:39:57 GMT -5
I never said he could replicate Syngergaard. Then what does "Kopech could be the next Thor" mean?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jun 27, 2016 19:38:13 GMT -5
I said right now he could replicate Teheran & that he could be the "next" Syndergaard. Obviously he's not coming up any time soon. I was stating he could probably win you a game as well as Teheran.
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Post by jmei on Jun 27, 2016 20:01:56 GMT -5
He really couldn't, though. Teheran isn't an ace, but he's an above-average MLB starting pitcher. No chance Kopech is anywhere close to that right now.
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Post by larrycook on Jun 27, 2016 21:16:53 GMT -5
Braves seen to be playing much better if late.
Hopefully they are totally uninterested in Trading with us.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2016 22:01:52 GMT -5
Braves seen to be playing much better if late. Hopefully they are totally uninterested in Trading with us. Why would they be uninterested? It's not like there anywhere near contention for a playoff spot. The Red Sox are far more likely to fall out of contention than the Braves are to get into contention.
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Post by dmaineah on Jun 28, 2016 10:21:06 GMT -5
I do not think you get Teheran with out giving up a player from the active roster. Shaw?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,440
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Post by nomar on Jun 28, 2016 10:47:52 GMT -5
I do not think you get Teheran with out giving up a player from the active roster. Shaw? Yeah the Braves probably care more about winning today than in 3-5 years.
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