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Red Sox Acquire B. Ziegler from AZ for Alej. Basabe, Almonte
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Post by mredsox89 on Jul 9, 2016 12:40:01 GMT -5
Kimbrel out for 3-6 weeks with knee surgery. God damn
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 9, 2016 12:59:43 GMT -5
The last 2 deals were essentially salary dumps we picked up. Yes we gave up some value but if either guy had been cheap we would have given up a lot more value. John Henry is the most valuable player on this roster.
Which is great and most appreciated! We are truly blessed with current ownership. If they do nothing else with their lives, they have certainly given a lot of joy to the Boston area.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 9, 2016 14:31:27 GMT -5
I really don't see either twin as a future major leaguer. Not unless pitchers only throw fastballs in the middle of the plate. Aka price and porcello.
Almonte on the other hand, he was decent one outing and crap the next. Once he gets more innings, he could project to a decent reliever.
Overall, I am happy with this trade.
We just need the lefty reliever from San Diego and a monster trade with Chicago involving sale, Quintana, price, a bunch of prospects and a giant bag of cash.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 9, 2016 14:47:58 GMT -5
I love the approach Dombrowski is taking. We are not giving up that much although you never know with a player like Basabe. This approach only goes so far though but a willingness to take on contracts can be one of the major advantages Boston still has in the industry. We are going to need to maximize those sorts of advantages and it appears Dombrowski / Henry got the memo.
Can we get a starter this way? One would think they will get a mediocre guy like Ervin Santana or some other #4 or 5 at best and hope for the best. I don't see us lining up prime prospects from the farm. I see more of the same. We would have to give up more for a guy of Ervin Santana's caliber but not so much that we can't do it without using one of the top 4 or 5.
Is Kopech now untouchable? One would think he is starting to skyrocket in value. He is a very solid trade chip for a starter like Cashner, Pomeranz, Santana...etc.
So great to see Matt Barnes throwing well. I still think he could be big for us and solve some problems.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 9, 2016 14:48:36 GMT -5
I really don't see either twin as a future major leaguer. Not unless pitchers only throw fastballs in the middle of the plate. Aka price and porcello. Almonte on the other hand, he was decent one outing and crap the next. Once he gets more innings, he could project to a decent reliever. Overall, I am happy with this trade. We just need the lefty reliever from San Diego and a monster trade with Chicago involving sale, Quintana, price, a bunch of prospects and a giant bag of cash. Larry, last time I checked the team was two games out of first, with almost half the season to go. And the sale of who at what price?
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Post by jmei on Jul 9, 2016 14:50:51 GMT -5
The last 2 deals were essentially salary dumps we picked up. Yes we gave up some value but if either guy had been cheap we would have given up a lot more value. John Henry is the most valuable player on this roster. Which is great and most appreciated! We are truly blessed with current ownership. If they do nothing else with their lives, they have certainly given a lot of joy to the Boston area. Zieger has something like $2.5m left on his contract this year and Hill has less than $2.5m left on his contract (the Brewers are paying an undisclosed amount of his remaining salary this year). That's not really much money at all to take on.
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Post by jmei on Jul 9, 2016 15:01:23 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 9, 2016 18:10:40 GMT -5
Koji closer
“@ryanhannable: Farrell: Koji is our closer. Says Ziegler will be set up man unless Koji needs day off.”
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 9, 2016 18:19:51 GMT -5
Love this deal, even though it breaks up dynamic twin brothers.
I would think that if Ziegler does well enough, the Sox could even think about extending him to a cheaper 2 year deal too maybe.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 9, 2016 19:52:54 GMT -5
Must have fooled Dave Stewart into thinking this was the good Basabe. ( We're sure it wasn't, right?) FWIW, in the mid-month rankings update to account for the draft signings, they were probably going to be right next to each other. It's basically turned into one is more refined with a limited ceiling while the other has the tools but is still quite raw. Depends on which you prefer.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 9, 2016 21:18:27 GMT -5
Let's not forget these guys are kids. They aren't who they will be or who they were a year ago. The Snakes undoubtedly had Basabe scouted, so it's not as if they came to the decision blind. Ziegler is, after all, just a rental. The Sox got value, certainly, but I don't believe AZ was stiffed.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jul 9, 2016 21:49:31 GMT -5
Kimbrel out for 3-6 weeks with knee surgery. God damn Or thank god. Depends how ya look at it
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,911
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 9, 2016 23:43:12 GMT -5
Koji closer “@ryanhannable: Farrell: Koji is our closer. Says Ziegler will be set up man unless Koji needs day off.” Koji, Ziegler: Expected ERA- based on xFIP- and career difference between ERA- and xFIP-: 74, 68 WPA/LI per 60 G: 0.69, 1.47 bWAR/60 G: 0.0, 1.7. Career OPS split, 3 & 4 hitters vs. 7 through 9: 176, 79. Really not defensible in any way.
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Post by ryantoworkman on Jul 10, 2016 0:03:39 GMT -5
Let's not forget these guys are kids. They aren't who they will be or who they were a year ago. The Snakes undoubtedly had Basabe scouted, so it's not as if they came to the decision blind. Ziegler is, after all, just a rental. The Sox got value, certainly, but I don't believe AZ was stiffed. That will be even more apparent when the Snakes re-sign Ziegler this offseason.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 10, 2016 11:08:08 GMT -5
Koji closer “@ryanhannable: Farrell: Koji is our closer. Says Ziegler will be set up man unless Koji needs day off.” Koji, Ziegler: Expected ERA- based on xFIP- and career difference between ERA- and xFIP-: 74, 68 WPA/LI per 60 G: 0.69, 1.47 bWAR/60 G: 0.0, 1.7. Career OPS split, 3 & 4 hitters vs. 7 through 9: 176, 79. Really not defensible in any way. Ziegler is the better pitcher, but Uehara seems to have less of a platoon split. I'd have no problem with this if the reasoning was that Uehara will thrive in the more structured role, freeing Ziegler to be used based on matchups. But my guess is that Ziegler will just be the Eighth Inning Guy and the reasoning is that Farrell is "comfortable" with Uehara.
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Post by jmei on Jul 10, 2016 11:34:53 GMT -5
Koji closer “@ryanhannable: Farrell: Koji is our closer. Says Ziegler will be set up man unless Koji needs day off.” Koji, Ziegler: Expected ERA- based on xFIP- and career difference between ERA- and xFIP-: 74, 68 WPA/LI per 60 G: 0.69, 1.47 bWAR/60 G: 0.0, 1.7. Career OPS split, 3 & 4 hitters vs. 7 through 9: 176, 79. Really not defensible in any way. It looks like you're citing three stats based on a half-season's worth of reliever innings and a fourth stat that noone but you thinks is predictive and which includes a decent chunk of Uehara's starting pitcher innings. Steamer RoS: Uehara: 2.75 ERA Ziegler: 3.92 ERA ZiPS RoS: Uehara: 3.63 ERA Ziegler: 3.33 ERA I think it's close enough that I'm not going to get too upset about it.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 10, 2016 11:38:07 GMT -5
I think it's close enough that I'm not going to get too upset about it. It's pretty clear that the smart thing to do would be to mix and match based on their completely different handedness splits. But I knew that wasn't going to happen even before Farrell confirmed it. Mitchel Lichtman @mitchellichtman 22h22 hours ago Now that BOS has Ziegler as a set-up guy, I hope they are smart enough to realize that he is useless (relatively speaking) against LHB.... Mitchel Lichtman @mitchellichtman 22h22 hours ago ...and they don't blindly bring him in in the 8th inning regardless of the handedness of the batters coming up, as ARI did while he was... Mitchel Lichtman @mitchellichtman 22h22 hours ago ..their closer (he is not an ace/closer versus LHB - he is barely a league average reliever).
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 10, 2016 14:55:46 GMT -5
You definitely want Ziegler closing when Donaldson, Bautista and Encarnacion are coming up in the 9th.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 10, 2016 17:11:24 GMT -5
I'd use Ziegler as a right handed specialist. If Donaldson comes up in the 7th in a close game with a guy on and one out, bring in Ziegler. I'd make Uehara the closer. Of course if it is 3 Right handed hitters in the 9th and Uehara is tired or whatever they can mix and match according to the situation. And who has been sharper recently.
I know it wasn't a lot of cash involved but I've got to believe we would have had to give up more talent if the salaries were commensurate. I like this sort of deal and we absolutely could use Ziegler this year even if Kimbrell comes back strong.
Give me this sort of deal every day of the week. Chances are neither of the prospects involved will ever be that valuable. When we are in a possible playoff hunt we need to do this sort of deal in particular. Keep the premium prospects but still fill a need with the big club with a quality guy who may actually get us a win or 2 more and make a difference.
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Post by coke0myfavdrink on Jul 10, 2016 17:42:11 GMT -5
I'd use Ziegler as a right handed specialist. If Donaldson comes up in the 7th in a close game with a guy on and one out, bring in Ziegler. I'd make Uehara the closer. Of course if it is 3 Right handed hitters in the 9th and Uehara is tired or whatever they can mix and match according to the situation. And who has been sharper recently. I know it wasn't a lot of cash involved but I've got to believe we would have had to give up more talent if the salaries were commensurate. I like this sort of deal and we absolutely could use Ziegler this year even if Kimbrell comes back strong. Give me this sort of deal every day of the week. Chances are neither of the prospects involved will ever be that valuable. When we are in a possible playoff hunt we need to do this sort of deal in particular. Keep the premium prospects but still fill a need with the big club with a quality guy who may actually get us a win or 2 more and make a difference. Chad Bradford 2.0? And use Tommy Layne correctly or let be used somewhere well.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 10, 2016 20:41:53 GMT -5
I was dismayed to hear about Kimbrel. Don't know if it was something sudden with Kimbrel or if it had been building when he heard that pop shagging flies. Maybe it has something to do with Kimbrel's shaky performance this year? Who knows?
I do know that I was glad Dombrowski was able to swing into action and get a quality reliever for a reasonably small price. I think Basabe could very well wind up a useful offensive 2b toward the top of the order. The Sox have cleared out a lot of their minor league 2b depth, but they got a very useful and needed arm in Ziegler who has always been an effective pitcher.
I don't understand why Koji at this point would be named closer over Ziegler. Koji is a HR waiting to happen. I guess it's going to take some blown saves courtesy of the HR ball for Farrell to realize that this is a mistake.
Ideally Ziegler would be spotted against righties but he's still a better option for the closer role than Koji and once Kimbrel is back, he's an ideal bridge to Kimbrel, although that might necessitate keeping Layne around - if Farrell uses him properly.
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Post by mannofsteele on Jul 10, 2016 20:54:54 GMT -5
Ziegler looked composed and very spot on in his debut. Two K's and a pop-up. Basabe may or may not turn out to be something, and Almonte may or may not become a prospect. You could look at Alcantara (Oakland) or Montas (LAD) as types of arms. But Ziegler gives your pen a different look and he's got something we haven't had/seen since Bradford.
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Post by Smittyw on Jul 11, 2016 9:49:56 GMT -5
Must have fooled Dave Stewart into thinking this was the good Basabe. ( We're sure it wasn't, right?) FWIW, in the mid-month rankings update to account for the draft signings, they were probably going to be right next to each other. It's basically turned into one is more refined with a limited ceiling while the other has the tools but is still quite raw. Depends on which you prefer. Fair enough. My post was mostly made in jest, and was more seizing an opportunity to make fun of Dave Stewart than a reflection of LAjB's value.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 11, 2016 11:25:48 GMT -5
FWIW, in the mid-month rankings update to account for the draft signings, they were probably going to be right next to each other. It's basically turned into one is more refined with a limited ceiling while the other has the tools but is still quite raw. Depends on which you prefer. Fair enough. My post was mostly made in jest, and was more seizing an opportunity to make fun of Dave Stewart than a reflection of LAjB's value. Oh, comment wasn't directed at you at all. Just an opportunity to bring that up.
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Post by tjb21 on Jul 11, 2016 13:23:44 GMT -5
Another immediate help for adequate cost trade. Exactly the type of trade we should be exited about.
I liked Basabe fine, but this is a trade to let him go for.
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