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Post by kungfuizzy on Jul 14, 2016 18:02:18 GMT -5
Despite where Kelly was ranked at the time of his trade, he never had the ceiling that Espinoza has. Having said that, I agree with you. Espinoza is an 18 year old hard thrower with a body that doesn't always live up to the rigors of being a starting pitcher. It hurts (bad) to give him up, and has the potential to be as bad as any trade in recent memory, but evrytime I look at the Free Agent list this winter I think something like this needed to be done. See Drew Pomeranz as the #5 pick in the draft, ahead of Harvey and Sale. Todd Van Poppel was a top pick too. What's your point? And that diva Groome can't even hold Espinosa's jock.
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:02:31 GMT -5
“@jeffpassan: Already heard from two front-office types saying they dig deal for Boston. Pomeranz is a cheap, under-control, potential difference maker.” Great deal for the Sox. There is absolutely no guarantee that Espinosa will ever achieve the prowess already present in Pomeranz...an all- star pitcher. C'mon guys. How dare you bring logic into this thread!
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Post by cheers on Jul 14, 2016 18:02:37 GMT -5
I don't particularly like this trade, but it might not be SO awful if the following are true.
1) Pomeranz puts up 190IP/yr at ~4ERA for the next 2.5 seasons 2) Espinoza doesn't hit MLB until 2018 September callups (and isn't the next Pedro)
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jul 14, 2016 18:03:02 GMT -5
Drew Pomeranz' breakout was not out of left field. It was fairly predictable and reasonably in line with his post-coors performance.
I hate seeing Espinoza go and think it's a bad deal, but I'm willing to let DD "show me" that Pomeranz is for real.
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Post by telluricrook on Jul 14, 2016 18:03:38 GMT -5
Now I really wonder how much of kopech's recent success has factored into the red sox pulling the trigger with Espinoza.
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Post by smairs on Jul 14, 2016 18:03:59 GMT -5
Wow....never in my wildest dreams would I expect to see such emotion as this. Lets not forgot that Pomeranz was the #5 draft selection and is an all-star!!! People calling him a bum just haven't seen him pitch. I live on the west coast, and ever since he added his cutter, he is dominant. Is Espinoza a steep price....absolutely..but its the price for a starter. Pomeranz will fit in nicely to the Sox rotation...and this could be the end for Clay B!!!
Give the kid a chance....
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:04:05 GMT -5
Jump off a bridge if you hate it so much...I'm happy I won't ever have to see Sean O'Sullivan pitch another inning in Boston. Great. They could have made moves for a lesser pitcher. This is more than what the flipping DBacks gave up for Shelby Miller. DD got hosed....AGAIN. I'll be stunned if Dumb Dave doesn't give up Moncada and AB for Tyson Ross at the deadline...just awful. Now I know why Detroit canned him. What good would that accomplish, help us not make the playoffs?
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 14, 2016 18:04:07 GMT -5
I'm glad we have Devers still. Wait a couple weeks.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 14, 2016 18:04:37 GMT -5
He's just as good of a prospect as JoFer was and more advanced in terms of where he's pitching. He will be up next year if not September this year. The guy is a lock solid Ace. And DD traded THAT for this scrub! Pomeranz is an absolute SCRUB of the highest order. I'm telling you he's at Porcello's level. Would you trade a future ace for Rick Flipping Porcello?!!! Hell no. Are you nuts? September this year? Have seen him or his numbers this year?
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,962
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Post by jimoh on Jul 14, 2016 18:04:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the links. I note that one the Fangraphs pieces says it was really tough for him to pitch in Colorado: "In any case, Pomeranz is glad to be free of Colorado, which kills curveballs. Don’t get him started on Colorado, really: “I didn’t have a curveball for two years. I had one pitch, and it was a fastball and it cut most of the time. They tried to get me to throw changeups and they would cut. My curveballs would bounce because if I threw them at all up, they would hang, so I would have to bounce it."
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Post by jmei on Jul 14, 2016 18:05:07 GMT -5
That's exactly my read as well. It's a huge gamble, though-- even if Dombrowski is right and Pomeranz is a legit #2, he paid a price commensurate with what you'd give up for a guy who you're sure is a legit #2 and will stay healthy, but Pomeranz comes with a lot of risk, and the trade package doesn't reflect that risk. Arrieta throws 3 mph harder, which even for a RHP is disproportionally higher. Arrieta has a 4 pitch mix, Pomeranz 3 with a show me change. Not to mention that he's never shown the BB% to come close to what Arrieta has been able to do in terms of total value. He'd have to strike out 12 per 9 to come to Arrieta's FIP/FIPx over the past few seasons. To be fair, Pomeranz doesn't have to pitch as well as Arrieta to justify this deal, he only needs to pitch as well as, say, 2008-2010 Jon Lester. And if you compare Lester and Pomeranz's age 25-27 seasons, they actually compare decently well on a rate basis. Of course, the big difference is that Lester had a frame and a track record commensurate with a guy you'd expect 200 inning seasons out of. Pomeranz doesn't, and he's a little more dependent on suppressing hits on balls in play and put up his numbers in a friendlier league/park. So, uh, even the best-case scenario isn't really all that rosy.
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 14, 2016 18:05:35 GMT -5
“@jeffpassan: Already heard from two front-office types saying they dig deal for Boston. Pomeranz is a cheap, under-control, potential difference maker.” Great deal for the Sox. There is absolutely no guarantee that Espinosa will ever achieve the prowess already present in Pomeranz...an all- star pitcher. C'mon guys. By this logic literally any prospect-for-established-big leaguer is a good trade to you.
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Post by telluricrook on Jul 14, 2016 18:06:14 GMT -5
He's just as good of a prospect as JoFer was and more advanced in terms of where he's pitching. He will be up next year if not September this year. The guy is a lock solid Ace. And DD traded THAT for this scrub! Pomeranz is an absolute SCRUB of the highest order. I'm telling you he's at Porcello's level. Would you trade a future ace for Rick Flipping Porcello?!!! Hell no. You're a little angry right now. Do you want to sing a song?... Do you know "I feel pretty"?
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Post by theghostofjoecronin on Jul 14, 2016 18:06:16 GMT -5
He's just as good of a prospect as JoFer was and more advanced in terms of where he's pitching. He will be up next year if not September this year. The guy is a lock solid Ace. And DD traded THAT for this scrub! Pomeranz is an absolute SCRUB of the highest order. I'm telling you he's at Porcello's level. Would you trade a future ace for Rick Flipping Porcello?!!! Hell no. Are you nuts? September this year? Have seen him or his numbers this year? I've read all his posts and I think he's trolling.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jul 14, 2016 18:07:35 GMT -5
Great. They could have made moves for a lesser pitcher. This is more than what the flipping DBacks gave up for Shelby Miller. DD got hosed....AGAIN. I'll be stunned if Dumb Dave doesn't give up Moncada and AB for Tyson Ross at the deadline...just awful. Now I know why Detroit canned him. What good would that accomplish, help us not make the playoffs? Who the hell cares about mortgaging the future for one year? The Sox could have built a home grown powerhouse. Instead, now they mortgaged the future and robbed Peter to pay Paul.
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Post by mtsquad on Jul 14, 2016 18:08:09 GMT -5
God, granted I only lurk occasionally through here, you kind of come off as exactly who your condemning here. I mean you stated earlier you're going to quit watching the Red Sox over one trade? Comes off as more or less a tantrum to me, and then this post. I totally understand frustration and I'm not defending this deal in the least, just commenting on what I'm seeing here. Just seems like a little overreaction. In advance I'm not trying to attack so peace my friend we both have similar interests. Liar, I never said that. I apologize for that, mixed you up with another poster that was having a similar meltdown. My bad.
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Post by mrhenry24 on Jul 14, 2016 18:08:24 GMT -5
I'm new (well, first time poster, long time reader) so forgive me but Pomeranz was the number 5 pick in the draft in 2010. If this were 2010 and he was in the organization or coming into it, you'd love him because he's "potential". The point is we have no idea what Espinoza will be. What if it takes Espinoza until he's 27 to figure it out like Pomeranz? That's nine years from now. Give me the guy who is good now. Look around, A couple of years ago everyone loved Henry Owens and he blows. Casey Kelly was going to be something special and he blows. The list goes on forever.
Maybe Espinoza could have been part of something to get Fernandez but that no doubt would have been a package that had to also include Moncada or Benintendi or both and more. I don't like giving up Espinoza but this makes sense since they signed Groome, so it cancels out the loss. And for all of the people who hate Dombrowski and laughably want Ben Cherrington back, can you tell me over the course of his career, how many big deals like this Dombrowski has lost in the long run? How many big "prospects" has he given up that actually became anything?
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 14, 2016 18:09:05 GMT -5
Didn't realize he's a knuckleball pitcher. I'm good now.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Jul 14, 2016 18:09:11 GMT -5
Are you nuts? September this year? Have seen him or his numbers this year? I've read all his posts and I think he's trolling. How am I trolling? I'm pissed because I've watched DD rip apart a great minor league system. Awful.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 14, 2016 18:09:24 GMT -5
I'm done watching. Thanks, guys, it's been fun.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,962
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Post by jimoh on Jul 14, 2016 18:09:49 GMT -5
I think the words thing about this trade will be how unpleasant it will be to read this site for a while.
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Post by scotian1 on Jul 14, 2016 18:10:29 GMT -5
Given the fact that Espinosa is at least three years away from the majors, not too upset with the trade. Sure in three or four more years he may be an MLB All Star but that is far from a certainty. The Sox have a desperate need for pitching right now and the GM addressed it. My main worry is will Pomeranz be able to pitch the number of innings the team will need out of him. If he can it will have been an acceptable trade.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jul 14, 2016 18:10:48 GMT -5
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Post by jmei on Jul 14, 2016 18:11:03 GMT -5
Anderson Espinoza is a (maybe) 6 foot righthander. Name me one other righty with his stature, besides Pedro Martinez, who has even been a consistent #2 starter over the past 25 years. Now consistent Drew Pomeranz is not. But considering handedness and stature, i'm not sure that Espinoza projects as a better player. Recent reports estimated Espinoza at 6'1", 180, which is not all that small. He's also only 18, and 18-year olds have been known to grow an inch or two. But, with that said: Tim Lincecum (5-11), Johnny Cueto (5-11), Zach Greinke (6-0), Yordano Ventura (6-0), Danny Salazar (6-0), Carlos Martinez (6-0)... should I go on?
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Post by mosox2013 on Jul 14, 2016 18:11:49 GMT -5
First time posting, been following the site and discussions daily for the past 5 years and decided today would be my first post coming with the news....
It's somewhat difficult to hear but I believe it is a calculated move. If Pomeranz fills in as a #3 this year and going forward how can we say this is terrible. Groome and Kopech are still in the system with future. We don't know what 4 years brings. In four years we could possibly be losing Betts, boagerts, and Bradley. Looks not have a complete knee jerk reaction. A world series championship is a pretty good trade off for an unknown, in my opinion. If we would have never won a championship with Lester would he have been such a big deal?
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