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Post by philarhody on Aug 1, 2016 15:26:29 GMT -5
I think a key point has been made here. Forget clay. The interest is the sox pitcher development model. Is it broke ? Maybe the best trade or free agent pickup is to recruit the pitching coaches from tampa, pirates, or san fran. Those guys seem to have a track record over a long time that says they know pitching because they get results. The pitcher development model only works if you draft/sign the right pitchers. Something that hasn't really been done since Jon Lester.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 1, 2016 16:51:47 GMT -5
Buchholz wont clear waivers. A waiver deal is when a team claims him, and you negotiate a trade price. If the claiming team doesn't make a good enough offer, the waivers are retracted. Example: on 8/25/09, the Mets put Billy Wagner on waivers, the Sox claimed him and worked out a trade where Chris Carter and a PTBNL (Eddie Lora) went to the Mets. Sox got two picks for Wagner when he signed with the Braves, which they used to pick Kolbrin Vitek and Bryce Brentz. Since they got Carter for Wily Mo Pena, you can trace Brentz back to claiming Bronson Arroyo on waivers from the Pirates.
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Post by patford on Aug 1, 2016 17:29:26 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be something if Buchholz went a route something like Dennis Eckersley? What's wrong with being wildly optimistic in this case? There are indications he could work out.
Against the Angels he was hitting 95mph. Short stints would likely reduce injury risk. Part of his problem has always seemed to come from him not being able to stay focused. Maybe he can lock in for an inning or two better than he can as a starter.
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Post by bnich on Aug 1, 2016 17:51:08 GMT -5
I would keep Clay for SP depth. With Wright might missing starts due to weather, I see the Sox hanging onto him. If he ends the year really strong then trade him in the offseason. If he stinks again, then don't pick up his 2017 option obviously. Is that a joke? Wake struggled and got roughed up from time to time. That's the life of a knuckle ball pitcher.
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Post by manfred on Aug 1, 2016 17:54:04 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be something if Buchholz went a route something like Dennis Eckersley? What's wrong with being wildly optimistic in this case? There are indications he could work out. Against the Angels he was hitting 95mph. Short stints would likely reduce injury risk. Part of his problem has always seemed to come from him not being able to stay focused. Maybe he can lock in for an inning or two better than he can as a starter. I like the thinking but for two things: A) Buchholz still seems to need extra time to warm up. Maybe he can get used to relieving but B) he doesnt have Eck's (or other great closer's) sang froid. I see him excelling in games when Sox are down a few. Dunno what he'd do up 1 in the 9th.
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Post by bnich on Aug 1, 2016 17:57:10 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be something if Buchholz went a route something like Dennis Eckersley? What's wrong with being wildly optimistic in this case? There are indications he could work out. Against the Angels he was hitting 95mph. Short stints would likely reduce injury risk. Part of his problem has always seemed to come from him not being able to stay focused. Maybe he can lock in for an inning or two better than he can as a starter. I like the thinking but for two things: A) Buchholz still seems to need extra time to warm up. Maybe he can get used to relieving but B) he doesnt have Eck's (or other great closer's) sang froid. I see him excelling in games when Sox are down a few. Dunno what he'd do up 1 in the 9th.
He hasn't been used at all in that spot, so why worry? I don't think that is his spot in the bullpen nor will we see him in that spot. With Ziegler, Barnes, Ross and others, no reason to expect to Buchholz in shorter stints.
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Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2016 18:23:07 GMT -5
B) he doesnt have Eck's (or other great closer's) sang froid. I see him excelling in games when Sox are down a few. Dunno what he'd do up 1 in the 9th. Neither did Koji (he has openly admitted to being extremely nervous in save situations, to the point where he almost threw up after the 2013 ALCS), but he did just fine. As long as a guy's effective, the psychoanalysis seems unnecessary and counterproductive (see, e.g., the unceremonious dumping of Mark Melancon because he allegedly couldn't perform in a big market).
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Post by manfred on Aug 1, 2016 19:29:04 GMT -5
B) he doesnt have Eck's (or other great closer's) sang froid. I see him excelling in games when Sox are down a few. Dunno what he'd do up 1 in the 9th. Neither did Koji (he has openly admitted to being extremely nervous in save situations, to the point where he almost threw up after the 2013 ALCS), but he did just fine. As long as a guy's effective, the psychoanalysis seems unnecessary and counterproductive (see, e.g., the unceremonious dumping of Mark Melancon because he allegedly couldn't perform in a big market). Fair enough, and largely I agree: it's hard to know a player's fortitude. In this instance, though, we are talking about a guy with a decade of Sox experience. For generosity's sake to Buchholz, I'll retreat though to the position that I would not risk using him as closer.
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Post by patford on Aug 1, 2016 20:49:34 GMT -5
Neither did Koji (he has openly admitted to being extremely nervous in save situations, to the point where he almost threw up after the 2013 ALCS), but he did just fine. As long as a guy's effective, the psychoanalysis seems unnecessary and counterproductive (see, e.g., the unceremonious dumping of Mark Melancon because he allegedly couldn't perform in a big market). Fair enough, and largely I agree: it's hard to know a player's fortitude. In this instance, though, we are talking about a guy with a decade of Sox experience. For generosity's sake to Buchholz, I'll retreat though to the position that I would not risk using him as closer. Buchholz is an enigma. It's hard to pin his struggles as nerves. With a bad arm he gutted out a decent start against the Cardinals. He's pitched well under pressure at times and horrible in mop up duty recently. Over the course of his career it seems he does not have the physical or mental stamina to hold up as a starter. He could easily force the issue during the rest of this year. If by chance he is dominant in short stints it is very likely he will be used more and more. And then what?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 2, 2016 11:55:44 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass".
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Post by bannedfromsosh on Aug 2, 2016 20:28:46 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass". The question becomes, out of these guys, would any be an upgrade AND be a possibility to sign for under 13m? My gut tells me yes...I'll bold the one's with potential to fit that bill: Brett Anderson (29)Clay Buchholz (32) — $13.5MM club option with a $500K buyout Andrew Cashner (30)Jhoulys Chacin (29) Bartolo Colon (43) Jorge De La Rosa (36) R.A. Dickey (42) Doug Fister (33) Jaime Garcia (30) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Gio Gonzalez (31) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Jason Hammel (34) — $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout Jeremy Hellickson (30)Rich Hill (37) Derek Holland (30) — $11MM club option with a $1MM buyout Scott Kazmir (33) — can opt out of remaining two years, $32MM on current contract Mat Latos (29) Colby Lewis (37) Kris Medlen (31) — $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Matt Moore (28) — $7MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout Charlie Morton (33) — $9.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Jon Niese (30) — $10MM club option with a $500K buyout Ivan Nova (30) Jake Peavy (36) CC Sabathia (36) — $25MM vesting option with a $5MM buyout James Shields (35) — can opt out of remaining two years, $44MM on current contract Alfredo Simon (36) Edinson Volquez (33) — $10MM mutual option with a $3MM buyout Jered Weaver (34) C.J. Wilson (36) With the market so thin, some of these guys will be paid insanely more than they're worth. What a terrible class. I guess you keep an eye on the opt-out guys too. Either way, I'd rather cut bait with Buch....tired of his inconsistency, and it's not even worth a 13m gamble in this market. Use the money towards EE, and assume one of Johnson/Owens/Kelly can fill the 6th starter role.
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Post by dnfl333 on Aug 2, 2016 21:53:50 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass". The question becomes, out of these guys, would any be an upgrade AND be a possibility to sign for under 13m? My gut tells me yes...I'll bold the one's with potential to fit that bill: Brett Anderson (29)Clay Buchholz (32) — $13.5MM club option with a $500K buyout Andrew Cashner (30)Jhoulys Chacin (29) Bartolo Colon (43) Jorge De La Rosa (36) R.A. Dickey (42) Doug Fister (33) Jaime Garcia (30) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Gio Gonzalez (31) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Jason Hammel (34) — $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout Jeremy Hellickson (30)Rich Hill (37) Derek Holland (30) — $11MM club option with a $1MM buyout Scott Kazmir (33) — can opt out of remaining two years, $32MM on current contract Mat Latos (29) Colby Lewis (37) Kris Medlen (31) — $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Matt Moore (28) — $7MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout Charlie Morton (33) — $9.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Jon Niese (30) — $10MM club option with a $500K buyout Ivan Nova (30) Jake Peavy (36) CC Sabathia (36) — $25MM vesting option with a $5MM buyout James Shields (35) — can opt out of remaining two years, $44MM on current contract Alfredo Simon (36) Edinson Volquez (33) — $10MM mutual option with a $3MM buyout Jered Weaver (34) C.J. Wilson (36) With the market so thin, some of these guys will be paid insanely more than they're worth. What a terrible class. I guess you keep an eye on the opt-out guys too. Either way, I'd rather cut bait with Buch....tired of his inconsistency, and it's not even worth a 13m gamble in this market. Use the money towards EE, and assume one of Johnson/Owens/Kelly can fill the 6th starter role. Diamond Dave should have signed Fister when he had the chance. Again, the option $ would have been better suited for other players and Team Needs. The longer you keep inconsistent pitchers around their going to come back and haunt you in a "big" spot. Kelly is the other who needs to go and yesterday
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Post by telson13 on Aug 3, 2016 16:20:21 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass". The question becomes, out of these guys, would any be an upgrade AND be a possibility to sign for under 13m? My gut tells me yes...I'll bold the one's with potential to fit that bill: Brett Anderson (29)Clay Buchholz (32) — $13.5MM club option with a $500K buyout Andrew Cashner (30)Jhoulys Chacin (29) Bartolo Colon (43) Jorge De La Rosa (36) R.A. Dickey (42) Doug Fister (33) Jaime Garcia (30) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Gio Gonzalez (31) — $12MM club option with a $500K buyout Jason Hammel (34) — $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout Jeremy Hellickson (30)Rich Hill (37) Derek Holland (30) — $11MM club option with a $1MM buyout Scott Kazmir (33) — can opt out of remaining two years, $32MM on current contract Mat Latos (29) Colby Lewis (37) Kris Medlen (31) — $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Matt Moore (28) — $7MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout Charlie Morton (33) — $9.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout Jon Niese (30) — $10MM club option with a $500K buyout Ivan Nova (30) Jake Peavy (36) CC Sabathia (36) — $25MM vesting option with a $5MM buyout James Shields (35) — can opt out of remaining two years, $44MM on current contract Alfredo Simon (36) Edinson Volquez (33) — $10MM mutual option with a $3MM buyout Jered Weaver (34) C.J. Wilson (36) With the market so thin, some of these guys will be paid insanely more than they're worth. What a terrible class. I guess you keep an eye on the opt-out guys too. Either way, I'd rather cut bait with Buch....tired of his inconsistency, and it's not even worth a 13m gamble in this market. Use the money towards EE, and assume one of Johnson/Owens/Kelly can fill the 6th starter role. I'd like to see the Sox sign Dickey. Just because, hey, two knuckleballers. I think sticking with their current 5, maybe taking a flier on a depth arm, and looking to Owens/Johnson/Kelly/Elias/Haley etc (and, unlikely but possibly, Kopech at year's end) for depth is the smart play. As much as I dislike the Pomeranz acquisition for giving up Espinoza, it provides stability, and potentially saves $13M on Buchholz. That money can be earmarked, as you say, for a big bat, or a quality relief arm (or two).
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Post by klostrophobic on Aug 3, 2016 18:30:28 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass". I just threw up. He's going to pitch, what like 25 more innings max at this point? He's gonna strike out under 6.5 per nine and walk more than 3 per nine and give up a homer per nine at least. Pass pass pass. Going into next season he shouldn't be anywhere on any depth chart. The top 4 are pretty set with Price, Pomeranz, Porcello and Wright. The fifth spot should be able to be handled by some combo of Rodriguez, Owens, Johnson and/or one of any fifty FA or trade targets before they contemplate bringing Buchholz back at 13 million.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 3, 2016 22:18:21 GMT -5
I know we can't see this happening, but Clay may very well continue to pitch ok in the BP going forward. Then get a few spot starts for Pomz &/or rainy nights for Wright. With the awful SP class I could see us picking up that 13 mil option next year for depth if nothing else. Store him in the BP for "for emergency break glass". I just threw up. He's going to pitch, what like 25 more innings max at this point? He's gonna strike out under 6.5 per nine and walk more than 3 per nine and give up a homer per nine at least. Pass pass pass. Going into next season he shouldn't be anywhere on any depth chart. The top 4 are pretty set with Price, Pomeranz, Porcello and Wright. The fifth spot should be able to be handled by some combo of Rodriguez, Owens, Johnson and/or one of any fifty FA or trade targets before they contemplate bringing Buchholz back at 13 million. Right now Rodriguez looks like a better bet for the front 4 than does Pomeranz.
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Post by tjb21 on Aug 4, 2016 9:04:46 GMT -5
I just threw up. He's going to pitch, what like 25 more innings max at this point? He's gonna strike out under 6.5 per nine and walk more than 3 per nine and give up a homer per nine at least. Pass pass pass. Going into next season he shouldn't be anywhere on any depth chart. The top 4 are pretty set with Price, Pomeranz, Porcello and Wright. The fifth spot should be able to be handled by some combo of Rodriguez, Owens, Johnson and/or one of any fifty FA or trade targets before they contemplate bringing Buchholz back at 13 million. Right now Rodriguez looks like a better bet for the front 4 than does Pomeranz Wright. Fixed.
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 4, 2016 10:02:51 GMT -5
Right now Rodriguez looks like a better bet for the front 4 than does Pomeranz Wright. Fixed. Oof, I hadn't realized how badly Wright has struggled recently until I went to check his numbers. Still has pitched better than Pomeranz, though.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 4, 2016 11:03:49 GMT -5
Either way, Clay is your #6. We can all throw up at the thought of it, but with any staff, it's rare that you don't use that guy. An oblique, arm, or whatever, I'd be shocked if Clay doesn't start some games down the stretch. All he'd have to do is give you some quality starts & his option is picked up.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2016 12:00:47 GMT -5
Clay has looked pretty solid out of the pen and his velo has crept up. His command has been much better IMO. This guy owned a 3.26 ERA last season. If indeed a cause for his troubles this year are connected to mechanics issues and they have been addressed...then we have a very good spot starter/long man. I still like the guy.
Trading him would be a buy low option. He is worth more to us. And, if he indeed rebounds, he will bring more in return. Keeping him at present is the viable option.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 4, 2016 12:58:28 GMT -5
I wonder if CJ Wilson will be put on waivers. We could use him as a reliever (he's probably be capable of 7th inning relief) and depth for the rotation. Granted I wouldn't want much of that contract and it would force the newly bought Abad out probably (until rosters expand).
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 21, 2016 22:17:39 GMT -5
Chili Davis FTW! It was actually Red Sox hitting coach Chili Davis who suggested that Clay Buchholz pitch out of the stretch even with the bases empty. "He says that from a hitter's perspective and watching from the side, throwing out of the stretch, he felt like the ball got on guys a little bit quicker than it did when I had a high leg kick and they're able to time it," Buchholz said. "That's when I said, all right, regardless I'm going to throw out of the stretch." www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0570442013447559340-4
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 21, 2016 22:54:35 GMT -5
Where is our pitching coach in all of this?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 21, 2016 23:55:35 GMT -5
Where is our pitching coach in all of this? I'd say, given what we've read and heard, that Chili Davis has done an outstanding job with the hitters and apparently Buchholz, who was also aided by Brian Bannister, who has done an outstanding job. Butterfield has done a wonderful job as Hanley has become a serviceable 1b. I really can't tell you what Carl Willis, our pitching coach, has accomplished. I hope it's something.
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Post by michael on Sept 24, 2016 11:54:31 GMT -5
At what point in the year does a traded walk year player no longer require a draft pick comp? Might that not increase an earlier trade of Buchholz?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 24, 2016 14:41:57 GMT -5
At what point in the year does a traded walk year player no longer require a draft pick comp? Might that not increase an earlier trade of Buchholz? Any point. Only untraded players go through the Q.O. / compensation pick process.
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