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Post by DesignatedKyle on Aug 14, 2016 2:15:26 GMT -5
I say leave him at 9. It's like leading off without any of the pressure.
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fenwayfaithful
Rookie
A prospect is fun to watch, but trading him for a sure thing in the Majors is never a losing deal.
Posts: 114
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Post by fenwayfaithful on Aug 14, 2016 3:59:22 GMT -5
Pedy X-Man Mookie Papi Hanley Jackie Shaw (cather) lol Benintendi. But its worth a shot to do a
Benintendi Pedy Mookie Bogaerts Papi Hanley Jackie Shaw Catcher.
I think in this lineup the bottom half can really dominate. Get Benintendi on if Pedy grounds into a DP then you start with mookie like its the top of the lineup again with X-Man behind him and Papi protecting him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 14, 2016 7:15:51 GMT -5
My lord over-reaction central in this thread. We are now at 2 weeks in the big leagues. Let the kid play without moving him around. It's not like our top 6 has a true weak spot. It's pretty damn good.
Btw... Remember early in the year when the lineup was incredible? Part of that was the bottom third of the order with shaw/holt and Bradley was tearing it up. Having production down there isn't a bad thing.
Btw2... Sandy Leon hasn't been an lol with the bat... I don't know where this guy came from but he's been a machine (relatively speaking) at the plate.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,881
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 14, 2016 8:25:42 GMT -5
The double last night, like the disputed 2B/ HR, went further than expected based on the way it left the bat. I'm not sure exactly what to make of that, but it strikes me as quite a good sign.
In fact, if he's using a significantly heavier bat than you'd expect for a guy his size, that's exactly what you'd see happen; our sense of how hard a ball is hit is the perceived bat speed times the assumed weight of the bat. If you've seen the size of his forearms, you know that the idea that he uses an unusually heavy bat for a guy his size is almost too easy too believe.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 14, 2016 8:31:23 GMT -5
I'd leave Benintendi right where he is. Leon and Benni have been fantastic at the bottom of the order. Betts has been, but Ortiz and Bogaerts have been struggling and Shaw has stopped hitting, while Hanley has been very streaky. The Red Sox now have a lineup 1 thru 9 that should have no real weak spot.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 14, 2016 9:37:35 GMT -5
I'd leave Benintendi right where he is. Leon and Benni have been fantastic at the bottom of the order. Betts has been, but Ortiz and Bogaerts have been struggling and Shaw has stopped hitting, while Hanley has been very streaky. The Red Sox now have a lineup 1 thru 9 that should have no real weak spot. I agree. Maybe if beni continues to hit well thru September then move up to 1 or 2 and move jbj down.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 14, 2016 12:38:35 GMT -5
The Red Sox need to move Beni up in the order. There was a reason why JBJ was moved up from 9 at the time, it was to give him more at bats. I do believe a 9 hitter can be more important than an 8 hitter, James Duune on here said nine hitter can be more valuable that 7 hitter to. I'm not sure on 7, but anyhow should we continue to give Beni the least opportunity of at bats vs anyone else in the lineup just because we want "more balance?"
To me that makes absolutely no sense. And therefore this lineup is much weaker now. What is more relevant is the moment right now, not what happened in May. May is gone. It's not an overreaction to move around a lineup that can help your team. Improvement is not an over-reaction. We've left too many men on base. Why does it make sense when the guys at the top of the order, which are more than likely on-base more, to have one of your better hitters at number 9? IMO this sounds like the "prevent defense reincarnated into the prevent offense."
I don't know if this matters/ or the relevance of this - but in our last 60 games the Red Sox have scored 3 runs or less in 22. Is that good for the type of overall pitching we have? Our ability to put up 6 runs or more have dropped quite a bit as well using 30 game intervals since May 1st. If this is not relevant- no problem. IMO I just see the offense is a struggle and we need Beni to move up.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 14, 2016 12:58:05 GMT -5
Benintendi has been in the majors for about five minutes and most of his offensive contribution has some in the form of a .478 BABIP. It's really early to be complaining about his spot in the lineup.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 14, 2016 13:16:53 GMT -5
Benintendi has been in the majors for about five minutes and most of his offensive contribution has some in the form of a .478 BABIP. It's really early to be complaining about his spot in the lineup. I don't agree. At this point the kid has shown he is nothing but a hitter and the team overall wasn't hitting that well and his hitting stats overall I'm sure are better than several players ahead of him. No sense not using your better hitters at the 9 hole.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 14, 2016 13:26:25 GMT -5
It takes Farrell at least half a year to change his mind so don't go borrowing trouble and start complaining now.
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Post by glassox on Aug 14, 2016 13:31:27 GMT -5
Benintendi has been in the majors for about five minutes and most of his offensive contribution has some in the form of a .478 BABIP. It's really early to be complaining about his spot in the lineup. I don't agree. At this point the kid has shown he is nothing but a hitter and the team overall wasn't hitting that well and his hitting stats overall I'm sure are better than several players ahead of him. No sense not using your better hitters at the 9 hole. One thing i think gets lost is baseball is about numbers but humans are not machines. Its not as easy as put .320 hitter here and he will still hit .320 in a new spot, there are variables. So why mess with something that is working out so well.
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Post by cto94 on Aug 14, 2016 13:43:25 GMT -5
No reason at all to move him around- he's not gonna hit .380 forever, and while he's been very impressive so far, I'm sure that eventually some holes will be discovered and exploited, and he'll have to adjust. Better to keep the pressure off him and let him get properly comfortable before we start tinkering with the lineup
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Post by soxjim on Aug 14, 2016 13:59:01 GMT -5
I don't agree. At this point the kid has shown he is nothing but a hitter and the team overall wasn't hitting that well and his hitting stats overall I'm sure are better than several players ahead of him. No sense not using your better hitters at the 9 hole. One thing i think gets lost is baseball is about numbers but humans are not machines. Its not as easy as put .320 hitter here and he will still hit .320 in a new spot, there are variables. So why mess with something that is working out so well. What is working out well? This is the 1st series we've won in a long time and it is from one of the worst teams in baseball while we're playing at home. We've got raod trips coming and we don't hit well on the road lately. It's been pretty bad/sub-par lately on the road, hasn't it?
Why is Xander on the bench today? How has he been hitting since the all-star break? Bradley hasn't been too good since then, has he? How has Travis Shaw been/ along with Aaron Hill? How has Brock Holt been hitting this year?
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Post by soxjim on Aug 14, 2016 14:04:56 GMT -5
No reason at all to move him around- he's not gonna hit .380 forever, and while he's been very impressive so far, I'm sure that eventually some holes will be discovered and exploited, and he'll have to adjust. Better to keep the pressure off him and let him get properly comfortable before we start tinkering with the lineup No reason to not move him around UNTIL teams find significant weaknesses if we aren't hitting. And before this series vs one of the worst teams in baseball we weren't hitting well. Along with more road trips in which we didn't hit well.
There is no reason to not continually try to improve our team just like we did by moving Pedey to 1 , Xander to 2 and Betts to 3. Why did we do it? Because we weren't hitting that well. SO far it hasn't worked out for Xander but we see today why Betts shouldn't be leadoff. Was there a reason to do this? Yes- we were struggling to score. We sought out to improve. Keep trying to continuously improve when you aren't playing well.
Who doesn't believe Beni isn't a better hitter than Shaw/Hill? WHo thinks Leon hasn't been a better hitter than Shaw/Hill? SO if YOU KNOW - why not DO something about it while the team struggled to score?
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Post by larrycook on Aug 14, 2016 19:57:34 GMT -5
No reason at all to move him around- he's not gonna hit .380 forever, and while he's been very impressive so far, I'm sure that eventually some holes will be discovered and exploited, and he'll have to adjust. Better to keep the pressure off him and let him get properly comfortable before we start tinkering with the lineup I have been very impressed with benintendi. His discipline at the plate and ability to lay off pitches outside the strike zone is very veteran like. I remember bogey's inability to lay off low and outside sliders for almost two years, And Bradley still can not hit an inside pitch, So to see benintendi laying off bad pitches is refreshing.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 14, 2016 20:21:29 GMT -5
Pedy X-Man Mookie Papi Hanley Jackie Shaw (cather) lol Benintendi. But its worth a shot to do a Benintendi Pedy Mookie Bogaerts Papi Hanley Jackie Shaw Catcher. I think in this lineup the bottom half can really dominate. Get Benintendi on if Pedy grounds into a DP then you start with mookie like its the top of the lineup again with X-Man behind him and Papi protecting him. You have three righties in a row. Switch Benintendi to the 2-hole.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 14, 2016 20:32:55 GMT -5
I would go: Pedroia Benintendi Betts Ortiz Bogaerts Bradley Jr Ramirez Shaw Leon
I don't think there's a huge benefit or risk either way, just my opinion on an optimized lineup. I suppose, theoretically, the best hitters should be 2-4, and therefore Betts in the 2 spot, but I like the balance above.
To me, it's just an intellectual exercise, I don't feel particularly strongly that the current lineup is all that suboptimal. If just prefer AB get more ABs while he's hot.
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Post by Coreno on Aug 14, 2016 21:24:09 GMT -5
So Leon hits .400 for 40 games and gets moved down in the order?
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 14, 2016 21:28:45 GMT -5
No reason at all to move him around- he's not gonna hit .380 forever, and while he's been very impressive so far, I'm sure that eventually some holes will be discovered and exploited, and he'll have to adjust. Better to keep the pressure off him and let him get properly comfortable before we start tinkering with the lineup I have been very impressed with benintendi. His discipline at the plate and ability to lay off pitches outside the strike zone is very veteran like. has been slightly below average.I remember bogey's inability to lay off low and outside sliders for almost two years, And Bradley still can not hit an inside pitch, So to see benintendi laying off bad pitches is refreshing. Going into today, his O-Swing of 31.3% would rank 136 of 244 MLB hitters (250+ PA). He would be leading in Zone% by a wide margin, though. What has been outstanding is his Z-Contact% (39th). Now, here's an interesting list. For pitches both in and outside the zone, break them down by: swung at and contacted, swung at and missed, and taken. That gives you six measures. Rank all the hitters in MLB by the degree to which they match Benintendi (root-mean-square of the 6 differences). .533, .048, .419; .209, .104, .687. Benintendi .526, .050, .424; .217, .103, .680. Nomar Mazara .540, .051, .409; .193, .128, .679. Xander Bogaerts
That's actually an interesting plaything. Most and least similar hitters to: Mookie: Jace Peterson, Adam Jones Papi: Aledmys Diaz, Joe Mauer JBJ: Carlos Correa, Adam Jones Pedey: Jose Ramirez, Adam Jones Xander: Jean Segura, guess who Hanley: Kendrys Morales, yup him again Shaw: Odubel Herrera, Mauer Adam Jones: Jonathan Schoop, Mauer Joe Mauer: Ben Revere, Jones Jones takes fewer pitches in the zone than anyone, by a wide margin, and Mauer takes the most. They're 3.0 and 3.2 standard deviations away from normal, respectively. So least similar turns out to be not that informative.
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Post by patford on Aug 14, 2016 22:50:56 GMT -5
As a long time Sox fan who is approaching 60, I can't say how much I enjoy seeing a sort of small left handed outfielder with Popeye forearms back in left. It just looks so right.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 14, 2016 23:16:56 GMT -5
So Leon hits .400 for 40 games and gets moved down in the order? Sandy has such a gravitational pull that these rules don't apply to him. He wasn't moved down the order, it was the order that moved.
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Post by templeusox on Aug 14, 2016 23:22:09 GMT -5
This outfield might produce 20 WAR next year.
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Post by bigpupp on Aug 14, 2016 23:58:01 GMT -5
This outfield might produce 20 WAR next year. Seems low. I think you forget to add in the WAR's for JBJ and Benintendi.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 15, 2016 8:08:05 GMT -5
Benintendi has been in the majors for about five minutes and most of his offensive contribution has some in the form of a .478 BABIP. It's really early to be complaining about his spot in the lineup. I don't agree. At this point the kid has shown he is nothing but a hitter and the team overall wasn't hitting that well and his hitting stats overall I'm sure are better than several players ahead of him. No sense not using your better hitters at the 9 hole. Benintendi is clearly on a hot streak. No one is arguing that winning every game isn't important what we are saying is you need to let this kid produce and get comfortable where he's at. He's doing his job right now and others need to follow. Like someone else said people aren't machines there is a mental aspect to being moved around that could affect AB and/or the other guys. The important thing is we have a 22 year old top prospect who spent about a year in the minors and never made it to AAA who's still getting his feet wet in the majors. He's improved the team by having success thus far. However, what happens when a relatively unknown player comes into the big leagues and has success immediately? Typically, as each at bat passes the opposition gets more of a book on said player and once that book is big enough they learn his weaknesses and start game planning to exploit them. Then said player needs to adjust. Let's let him go thru those adjustments.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 15, 2016 8:22:46 GMT -5
A good OBP-heavy player is more valuable in a normal lineup hitting 9th than he is hitting 6th or 7th. It's the difference of six to twelve plate appearances over the course of the rest of the season, and it makes him about 20% more likely to be cycled in an inning together with the top of the order. Throw in all of the subjective reasons for keeping there and I would argue it's the right move.
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