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MLB investigation Espinoza trade
gerry
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Post by gerry on Oct 3, 2016 14:40:53 GMT -5
Dave Dombrowski would have made this trade even if he had had the medicals. Or he would have traded Espinoza for a different middle of the rotation starter. He and John Henry felt they HAD to win this year, and they were willing to trade two elite prospects to do it. Just don't be surprised if the farm system takes a further hit this offseason. The fact that Pomeranz and Kimbrel Added only 2 WAR to a team that won its division by 4 games (and made the playoffs by 7) won't teach them anything. In fact, fans and media were clamoring loudly for some kind of deal for a top pitcher to insure we needn't depend on the not quite ready AAA rotation at a time pitching was still a debilitating problem for the Sox. I recall that talent like Sale, Quintana, etc. would cost Mookie, Moncada type talent, as would Rich Hill. To acquire a young, cost controlled through 2018, emerging stud like Pomz was a smart move, even for Neo That Preller misrepresented the facts, essentially committing fraud, does not negate the talent of a healthy Pomz, or his usefulness in 2016-2018 and perhaps beyond. Preller got off easy, as did the Pads. I agree Manfred, in attempting to resolve this after the trade deadline, should have understood the dilemma faced by the Sox due to this clearly intentional fraud and punished the Padres and at least partly compensated the Sox against future disadvantage (I.e. TJ surgery) by taking a Padre draft pick and awarding it to the Sox. So far, GM's and owners have seen NO disincentive for such unethical behavior, which is both wrong and shortsighted, as there has yet to be a punishment to fit the crime, which is clearly at the discretion if the commisioner. Finally, the losses of prospects for Kimbrel, Pomz, Smith, etc have been substantial. But through these trades DDo has actually built/maintained a very complete playoff team with well above average offense, defense, pitching, baserunning, youth, cost control, attitude. This team needs little to no tinkering for 2017, so should require little activity in the offseason trade market. With Panda followed by Moncada coming back, along with Travis, Swihart, Vasquez, etc. And Benny, Hernandez, ERod, Pomz, Price, Kelly settling in moves the team to another level. I don't see any holes needing filling that would further empty the farm!!!! Pitching is well set. C, 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, CF, RF, even the Bench are pretty set. Will Hanley or EE be DH? Really, it will be difficult to substantially improve this team. Granted, offseason tweaking will happen through FA and trades, and the Sox have $$ and redundant depth from which to deal (and the need to with the 2017 Rule 5 logjam), but I see no need to acquire expensive targets that would require losing any of our top prospects. We had a real need for Price, Pomz, Kimbrel, Smith, Zeigler, Young, Hill. Those needs have been filled or no longer needs. Why would DDo empty the farm? For what or for who (whom)??
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Oct 3, 2016 20:13:24 GMT -5
Dave Dombrowski would have made this trade even if he had had the medicals. Or he would have traded Espinoza for a different middle of the rotation starter. He and John Henry felt they HAD to win this year, and they were willing to trade two elite prospects to do it. Just don't be surprised if the farm system takes a further hit this offseason. The fact that Pomeranz and Kimbrel Added only 2 WAR to a team that won its division by 4 games (and made the playoffs by 7) won't teach them anything. Yep, I've thought about this and I think it's a near certainty that at least one of the top five in the system will be gone by next year's trade deadline. I'd love to see them hold onto Devers to anchor the middle of the order by 2019, but I expect that he'll be gone. I was an advocate of trading for Jeremy Hellickson at the deadline, but D-Dom always wants the Cadillac and among the SP available at this year's deadline he saw Pomeranz as the best. Ditto for closer last winter. Frankie Rodriguez wasn't going to be good enough. He had to have Kimbrel. K-Rod's b-Ref WAR: 1.1; Kimbrel's: .9.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Oct 3, 2016 23:59:30 GMT -5
Dave Dombrowski would have made this trade even if he had had the medicals. Or he would have traded Espinoza for a different middle of the rotation starter. He and John Henry felt they HAD to win this year, and they were willing to trade two elite prospects to do it. Just don't be surprised if the farm system takes a further hit this offseason. The fact that Pomeranz and Kimbrel Added only 2 WAR to a team that won its division by 4 games (and made the playoffs by 7) won't teach them anything. Yep, I've thought about this and I think it's a near certainty that at least one of the top five in the system will be gone by next year's trade deadline. I'd love to see them hold onto Devers to anchor the middle of the order by 2019, but I expect that he'll be gone. I was an advocate of trading for Jeremy Hellickson at the deadline, but D-Dom always wants the Cadillac and among the SP available at this year's deadline he saw Pomeranz as the best. Ditto for closer last winter. Frankie Rodriguez wasn't going to be good enough. He had to have Kimbrel. K-Rod's b-Ref WAR: 1.1; Kimbrel's: .9. He seems to acquire what he needs, getting the best available. Price and Kimbrel may be Cadillac-priced, but Any deadline pitcher would have fit that bill and Pomz also fit the best available not costing Benny or Moncada. However, C. Young, Aaron Hill, Abad, Smith, Zeigler, Leon, Holaday don't fit your description at all. Who do the Sox need that would cost Devers and other top prospects? I just don't see him blowing up this young playoff team or our top farm system for incremental gain. It makes no sense, whereas some version of Kimbrel, Price and Pomz were clearly identified as essential to 2016 success.
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Post by Coreno on Oct 4, 2016 0:20:58 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, but Leon was acquired before Dombrowski got here.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 4, 2016 10:04:14 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, but Leon was acquired before Dombrowski got here. Fair, but he also did re-sign him in November, I guess, getting him to sign and then accept an outright assignment to Pawtucket (not that this would've been a tough sell after how poorly he hit last year).
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Post by tonyc on Oct 5, 2016 12:05:02 GMT -5
While being heartbroken when this deal went down, rescinding it was not an option. Aside from the wins Pomeranz provided, there is a value that even Eric would be hard pressed to clearly define- how much performance enhancement and injury prevention does a mediocre starter (Pomeranz) provide by subtracting innings from an exhausted bullpen vs. an inferior alternative (Owens)? I submit that there is some probability that the pen would have been worse not just during the season, but going forward in the postseason without those saved innings. Additionally Pomeranz will play a dual role of lefty reliever/backup starter this year and have value the next two years during a lack of market available starters (therefore perhaps saving further prospect losses this year), and during which our prime players are under cost control. After that he might either be resigned, or provide some trade value. I"m still not necessarily for this trade, but there was and will be value.
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Post by soxjim on Oct 5, 2016 23:28:20 GMT -5
Yep, I've thought about this and I think it's a near certainty that at least one of the top five in the system will be gone by next year's trade deadline. I'd love to see them hold onto Devers to anchor the middle of the order by 2019, but I expect that he'll be gone. I was an advocate of trading for Jeremy Hellickson at the deadline, but D-Dom always wants the Cadillac and among the SP available at this year's deadline he saw Pomeranz as the best. Ditto for closer last winter. Frankie Rodriguez wasn't going to be good enough. He had to have Kimbrel. K-Rod's b-Ref WAR: 1.1; Kimbrel's: .9. He seems to acquire what he needs, getting the best available. Price and Kimbrel may be Cadillac-priced, but Any deadline pitcher would have fit that bill and Pomz also fit the best available not costing Benny or Moncada. However, C. Young, Aaron Hill, Abad, Smith, Zeigler, Leon, Holaday don't fit your description at all. Who do the Sox need that would cost Devers and other top prospects? I just don't see him blowing up this young playoff team or our top farm system for incremental gain. It makes no sense, whereas some version of Kimbrel, Price and Pomz were clearly identified as essential to 2016 success.I thought so too. I never thought the Sox would be this good this year so kudos to the team (including the aforementioned pickups) , management and yes even the coach (though I think he's been subpar and especially incompetent leading up to Sept before Koji came back and all the call-ups.). I wasn't in love with the Pomz deal (slightly against it unless he was a 2 which he wasn't) but I understood it. Management had a clear definition to try to win now.
When I read comparison "after-the-fact" by some of Kimbrel vs KRod or vs Rodney etc and the point they are trying to make is "DD could have gotten him." I think they miss the point. As you say DD was looking for the Cadillac, he was going "all-in" to try to achieve a division title and home advantage etc. Not only for this year but the next few. Getting KRod or Rodney early in the season and hope they perform is not going "all-in." Kimbrel was supposed to be lock-down. That's why they traded several prospects for him. DD didn't want to have a big question in the bullpen. -- Unfortunately though Kimbrel is now a big question And now so is Pomz. But both guys did help. They weren't busts like Pablo and Hanley of last year.
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