nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,706
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Post by nomar on Sept 4, 2016 9:30:02 GMT -5
That Farrell quote was gold.
"Why did you choose him?
Because he was chosen."
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Post by geostorm on Sept 4, 2016 9:31:23 GMT -5
Not wanting to put words in anyone's mouth; is it that he stretched his bench, dipping into the pool of available pitchers, that is most problematic, or his choice of pitchers? That JF could've/should've, on analysis, better mitigated the type of risks jmei recognized? If this were, say, Joe Maddon - if the move was even being second guessed, would it more likely be focused on his choice of pitchers, alone, w/ the choice of strategy not at all being questioned? thebiglead.com/2016/08/01/cubs-pitcher-travis-wood-excels-left-field-makes-joe-maddon-look-like-a-genius/Has JM, relative to JF, been luckier that the inherent risks (to my recollection) not materialized, as it did w/ Wright, or is part of his "genius" that in his decisions, he is better at factoring in risk? (e.g. we would assume that he would've PR Pomeranz)
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 4, 2016 9:34:23 GMT -5
$hit happens. Players get hurt in every different way. Just hope they get better and move on. But part of the job of the manager is to limit that risk. That is why athletes have, for instance, clauses in their contracts allowing teams to void the contract for injuries sustained playing other sports. The Patriots don't want Tom Brady injuring his knee trying to dunk. So fire Bruce Bochy who pinch hits with Mad Bum. He has not been hurt yet but they should get rid of Bochy before he gets him hurt. You end up using pitchers to run, hit and play the field in the National league. It is part of the game are American league pitchers more app to get hurt maybe but when you play by National league rules you have to play the game the way it is played in the National league.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 4, 2016 9:38:06 GMT -5
But part of the job of the manager is to limit that risk. That is why athletes have, for instance, clauses in their contracts allowing teams to void the contract for injuries sustained playing other sports. The Patriots don't want Tom Brady injuring his knee trying to dunk. So fire Bruce Bochy who pinch hits with Mad Bum. He has not been hurt yet but they should get rid of Bochy before he gets him hurt. You end up using pitchers to run, hit and play the field in the National league. It is part of the game are American league pitchers more app to get hurt maybe but when you play by National league rules you have to play the game the way it is played in the National league. And in the NL, you're required to pinch-run Steven Wright. Steven Wright, specifically. No other pitcher on the roster besides Steven Wright.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 4, 2016 9:46:49 GMT -5
So fire Bruce Bochy who pinch hits with Mad Bum. He has not been hurt yet but they should get rid of Bochy before he gets him hurt. You end up using pitchers to run, hit and play the field in the National league. It is part of the game are American league pitchers more app to get hurt maybe but when you play by National league rules you have to play the game the way it is played in the National league. And in the NL, you're required to pinch-run Steven Wright. Steven Wright, specifically. No other pitcher on the roster besides Steven Wright. No you can run who you like but it has to be a starter. Clay was hurt running the bases before also and Clay is probably the best running pitcher on the team still 6 years later. I have seen Zack Greinke used as a runner. I would argue that Zack and Mad Bum would be considered more valuable than Wright. If they can do it why can't Wright.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 4, 2016 9:56:22 GMT -5
Just wanted to point out the other option - to talk to Wright before he pinch ran and told him to stand on the base and not slide.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 4, 2016 10:02:10 GMT -5
Hey I get it I don't like the fact he got hurt running the bases either. I was mad at Steve for having such a big lead that he could not go back standing up because I did not want him to get hurt running the bases. I just hope he gets better quick not like last year. Last year he gets hit in the head running on the field.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 4, 2016 10:05:18 GMT -5
And in the NL, you're required to pinch-run Steven Wright. Steven Wright, specifically. No other pitcher on the roster besides Steven Wright. No you can run who you like but it has to be a starter. Clay was hurt running the bases before also and Clay is probably the best running pitcher on the team still 6 years later. I have seen Zack Greinke used as a runner. I would argue that Zack and Mad Bum would be considered more valuable than Wright. If they can do it why can't Wright. So between ZG and MB- please advise which one of these guys (as the top pitcher amongst their staff) is inexperienced running the bases and really slow as an ox to boot like Wright is? Unless you think Wright is fleet-of-foot? ZG and MB look like they can run not bad. They do it a lot running to first. How many times have you seen Wright run to 1st?
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 4, 2016 10:13:10 GMT -5
No you can run who you like but it has to be a starter. Clay was hurt running the bases before also and Clay is probably the best running pitcher on the team still 6 years later. I have seen Zack Greinke used as a runner. I would argue that Zack and Mad Bum would be considered more valuable than Wright. If they can do it why can't Wright. So between ZG and MB- please advise which one of these guys (as the top pitcher amongst their staff) is inexperienced running the bases and really slow as an ox to boot like Wright is? Unless you think Wright is fleet-of-foot? ZG and MB look like they can run not bad. They do it a lot running to first. How many times have you seen Wright run to 1st? Clay was supposed to be as fast as Jacoby and he got hurt running the bases. Benintendi and Young were hurt running on the base paths this year. Ortiz has not been. Who would you have put money on being hurt on the bases.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 4, 2016 10:23:35 GMT -5
By the way, I would have said the same thing at the time. I agree that hurting a shoulder diving back into a bag is a very unlikely injury risk, but it is nonetheless a foreseeable risk of using an inexperienced, unathletic starting pitcher as a pinch-runner. There are other injury risks associated with doing so-- pulling a hamstring, spraining an ankle, etc.-- and given those risks, it was a bad decision to use Wright there. Farrell was unlucky that one of the risks involved actually materialized, but it was still a bad decision in the first instance. It's like not wearing a seatbelt. Odds are, the vast majority of the time that you don't do so, nothing bad will happen. But it's still a bad decision, and, if you're unlucky, can have disastrous consequences. I was traveling during that period and didn't see the game, but as soon as I saw how it happened, I knew Farrell was at fault. There simply wasn't any situation where Wright running was the right choice. He's literally the last guy on the team I'd choose for that role. He's been their best pitcher, and he's possibly the least athletic guy on the team with the least experience as a baserunner. And if "didn't want to use a position player" was an excuse, it's a *terrible* excuse. You'd have to use a position player to replace Ortiz at first base, just use him as the pinch runner, too. It's a literally indefensible choice.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 10:33:30 GMT -5
Wright was chosen because he was the starting pitcher in the previous night's game, which is absolutely common practice.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 4, 2016 11:03:16 GMT -5
Clay Buchholz would have been the pinch runner as he is one of the fastest on the team. But, as I recall, he was already in the game or about to be called in.
Now we have a "designated pinch runner" in Moncada, provided he doesn't win the third base job in his brief call up.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 11:06:02 GMT -5
So between ZG and MB- please advise which one of these guys (as the top pitcher amongst their staff) is inexperienced running the bases and really slow as an ox to boot like Wright is? Unless you think Wright is fleet-of-foot? ZG and MB look like they can run not bad. They do it a lot running to first. How many times have you seen Wright run to 1st? Clay was supposed to be as fast as Jacoby and he got hurt running the bases. Benintendi and Young were hurt running on the base paths this year. Ortiz has not been. Who would you have put money on being hurt on the bases. It's not just about athleticism. It's also, and mostly about Wright's lack of experience with things like getting back to first base on a pickoff or sliding into a base. Buchholz is a point in my favor-- he similarly got hurt (and ran into an out!) because you've asked him to do something far outside his comfort zone. Yes, position players get hurt on the basepaths too, but they do it a hell of a lot more.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 4, 2016 11:11:54 GMT -5
That Farrell quote was gold. "Why did you choose him? Because he was chosen." Classic! Reminds me of the time the new Mets franchise was making its expansion draft selection. The first player the Mets chose was a catcher. Asked why, then manager Casey Stengel, replied: " because, if you don't have a catcher, the ball will roll all the way to the backstop".
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 11:12:42 GMT -5
Wright was chosen because he was the starting pitcher in the previous night's game, which is absolutely common practice. Factually incorrect. Wright started on Friday, August 5 and the pinch-running incident occurred on Sunday, August 7. Rodriguez started on Saturday, Porcello was scheduled to start the Tuesday after (with an off-game on Monday), and Pomeranz was schedule to start on Wednesday. If you needed to use a starting pitcher there, it was absolutely Pomeranz.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 11:19:29 GMT -5
Wright was chosen because he was the starting pitcher in the previous night's game, which is absolutely common practice. Factually incorrect. Wright started on Friday, August 5 and the pinch-running incident occurred on Sunday, August 7. Rodriguez started on Saturday, Porcello was scheduled to start the Tuesday after (with an off-game on Monday), and Pomeranz was schedule to start on Wednesday. If you needed to use a starting pitcher there, it was absolutely Pomeranz. You're right. Wright wasnt the last starter used. He was the last starter used who didn't have a knee that would pop out of socket for no apparent reason. He was still the person that most managers would have picked in that spot.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 4, 2016 11:42:03 GMT -5
So between ZG and MB- please advise which one of these guys (as the top pitcher amongst their staff) is inexperienced running the bases and really slow as an ox to boot like Wright is? Unless you think Wright is fleet-of-foot? ZG and MB look like they can run not bad. They do it a lot running to first. How many times have you seen Wright run to 1st? Clay was supposed to be as fast as Jacoby and he got hurt running the bases. Benintendi and Young were hurt running on the base paths this year. Ortiz has not been. Who would you have put money on being hurt on the bases. I wouldn't have put my money on a 31 yo slow, inexperienced runner in Wright. I can live with a guy that is fast or experienced on the base paths who winds up being hurt. If the manager had a smidgen of a brain and was thinking clearly he would have realized putting the 31 yo slow inexperienced base runner who happens to be a major pitching weapon on the base paths is too risky.
Your examples of MB and ZG were awful examples. You didn't answer the questions directly but tried indirectly. IMO you're defecting. The fact is with your examples of ZG and MB they are used to running to the base paths. You can't just isolate comments of "a pitcher pinch running" without taking into context that this particular Red Sox pitcher runs extremely infrequently.
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 11:48:23 GMT -5
Factually incorrect. Wright started on Friday, August 5 and the pinch-running incident occurred on Sunday, August 7. Rodriguez started on Saturday, Porcello was scheduled to start the Tuesday after (with an off-game on Monday), and Pomeranz was schedule to start on Wednesday. If you needed to use a starting pitcher there, it was absolutely Pomeranz. You're right. Wright wasnt the last starter used. He was the last starter used who didn't have a knee that would pop out of socket for no apparent reason. He was still the person that most managers would have picked in that spot. I've still yet to hear a single plausible reason why you'd go to Wright instead of Pomeranz there, including from Farrell himself when he was directly asked about it.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 4, 2016 12:21:51 GMT -5
No matter who was picked to PR, a coach should have told him not to try to be Ricky Henderson out there and get huge secondary leads. He should be running like Papi. Stand near the base and don't slide unless your life depends on it. Because not getting hurt is the #1 through 10 biggest priorities for a starting pitcher on the base paths. Maybe #11 is scoring a run.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 12:21:53 GMT -5
You're right. Wright wasnt the last starter used. He was the last starter used who didn't have a knee that would pop out of socket for no apparent reason. He was still the person that most managers would have picked in that spot. I've still yet to hear a single plausible reason why you'd go to Wright instead of Pomeranz there, including from Farrell himself when he was directly asked about it. We still have yet to hear what medical problem Pomeranz had when he came over from San Diego. I'm not saying that was a factor here but it would explain why Farrell world be tight lipped about it.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 4, 2016 13:14:36 GMT -5
I've still yet to hear a single plausible reason why you'd go to Wright instead of Pomeranz there, including from Farrell himself when he was directly asked about it. We still have yet to hear what medical problem Pomeranz had when he came over from San Diego. I'm not saying that was a factor here but it would explain why Farrell world be tight lipped about it. It was enough that the Red Sox didn't seek compensation so why assume he can't run? He was pitching fine with San Diego while still having to bat, correct? You mean it didn't affect him with San Diego but it is affecting him now with Red Sox? Why are you seeking ghosts? Or are you indirectly implying that the manager couldn't be that stupid to use Wright- so this must be a reason?
After all, this move he made is against his overall managerial philosophy, is it not?
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Post by adamoraz on Sept 4, 2016 13:15:36 GMT -5
No matter who was picked to PR, a coach should have told him not to try to be Ricky Henderson out there and get huge secondary leads. He should be running like Papi. Stand near the base and don't slide unless your life depends on it. Because not getting hurt is the #1 through 10 biggest priorities for a starting pitcher on the base paths. Maybe #11 is scoring a run. Totally agree. They should have told him to just stand on the bag and take direction from the 3rd base coach. He should never have been taking any kind of lead. This is just more proof to me that there is nothing entertaining about watching pitchers try to hit and then blunder around the bases.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 13:18:57 GMT -5
We still have yet to hear what medical problem Pomeranz had when he came over from San Diego. I'm not saying that was a factor here but it would explain why Farrell world be tight lipped about it. It was enough that the Red Sox didn't seek compensation so why assume he can't run? He was pitching fine with San Diego while still having to bat, correct? You mean it didn't affect him with San Diego but it is affecting him now with Red Sox? Why are you seeking ghosts? Or are you indirectly implying that the manager couldn't be that stupid to use Wright- so this must be a reason? I'm simply implying that I don't know everything that the manager knows on any given night. Are you implying that you do?
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2016 13:26:45 GMT -5
I've still yet to hear a single plausible reason why you'd go to Wright instead of Pomeranz there, including from Farrell himself when he was directly asked about it. We still have yet to hear what medical problem Pomeranz had when he came over from San Diego. I'm not saying that was a factor here but it would explain why Farrell world be tight lipped about it. So that's made up reason number two. You can believe Farrell is a good manager who deserves to keep his job without fanatically defending every move he makes.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 4, 2016 13:29:29 GMT -5
We still have yet to hear what medical problem Pomeranz had when he came over from San Diego. I'm not saying that was a factor here but it would explain why Farrell world be tight lipped about it. So that's made up reason number two. You can believe Farrell is a good manager who deserves to keep his job without fanatically defending every move he makes. I actually think he deserves to lose his job and have said so numerous times. But blaming Farrell for a player being hurt on the basepaths when it was no different of a move than any manager would have made seems odd to me. But maybe we should get a guy like Madden who would never put their pitchers in a spot to get hurt - like playing the outfield.
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