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9/23-9/25 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 24, 2016 3:55:06 GMT -5
I'm flummoxed.
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Post by dnfl333 on Sept 24, 2016 5:46:30 GMT -5
Vintage Farrell
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Sept 24, 2016 7:07:37 GMT -5
The bullpen made Farrell look like an idiot all year; now they're making him look like a genius. There seem to be a couple of things at play here. (1) When lots of guys are pitching well, it's true: the manager looks good no matter who he puts in. (2) But even so, with this huge pen and all sorts of choices, Farrell is putting the most logical people in at particular points in the game, whereas earlier in the season, with a smaller pen, fewer choices, and presumably more defined roles, he was making strange choices of who to put in the game at particular times. (3) Which makes me wonder if it wasn't really health and fatigue issues (or at least, his perception of those issues) that caused Farrell to manage the pen the way he was earlier, rather than an inherently flawed decision making process. Maybe there were things going on with the pen that we don't and can't understand.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 24, 2016 7:19:53 GMT -5
MLB isn't showing that as a double for Papi. It should be considered one because he was initially safe and then came off the bag. Apparently I'm wrong about this, but I don't agree with the rule.
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Post by p23w on Sept 24, 2016 7:30:38 GMT -5
The bullpen made Farrell look like an idiot all year; now they're making him look like a genius. There seem to be a couple of things at play here. (1) When lots of guys are pitching well, it's true: the manager looks good no matter who he puts in. (2) But even so, with this huge pen and all sorts of choices, Farrell is putting the most logical people in at particular points in the game, whereas earlier in the season, with a smaller pen, fewer choices, and presumably more defined roles, he was making strange choices of who to put in the game at particular times. (3) Which makes me wonder if it wasn't really health and fatigue issues (or at least, his perception of those issues) that caused Farrell to manage the pen the way he was earlier, rather than an inherently flawed decision making process. Maybe there were things going on with the pen that we don't and can't understand.There are things going on with the coaching staff and in the clubhouse that only those partaking in the process fully comprehend. Speculation by the baseball pundits and local media is skewed by the hyperbolic new cycle. Rather than be judgmental in the short term, it would behoove one to withhold "analysis" and criticism until the marathon season concludes. Criticism and analysis is fair game in the short term when it applies to the post season. I fall prey to the same temptations, then I remember, this is baseball, not politics, not religion, but a beautiful metaphor for life. The wonderment of which never ends.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 24, 2016 7:38:21 GMT -5
No matter what happens in the playoffs, this might be the most well-rounded Red Sox team I've seen now that the pitching has come into its own. The 2004 team really was a juggernaut after the Nomar/Cabrera trade stabilized the IF defense, but it still wasn't nearly as good defensively as this team. It also didn't have the baserunning prowess this team has. The 2007 team wasn't as deep as this one.
I'm not sure if this team is "better" than the 2004 team because that lineup in 2004 was downright intimidating, but it's a lot more solid and built to last a lot longer.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,881
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 24, 2016 7:48:27 GMT -5
Ho hum...another win!!! Magic numbers - 4 for the division, 2 for the playoffs. Piece of cake! 5th win of the season when scoring less than 3 runs. Which is to say, if they win tonight and the O's lose, a small celebration. Since we're starting Porcello while the O's have Miley, that's a real possibility. Diamondbacks are starting Robbie Ray, whose strange season I was unaware of: 80 xFIP-, 84 FIP-, 107 ERA thanks to a .353 BABIP. He's a LH version of Michael Pineda.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 24, 2016 8:22:50 GMT -5
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 24, 2016 10:32:06 GMT -5
Magic # of 4 with 8 to play is a nice place to be ... my hope of wrapping this up before the weekend series is getting closer all the time. Hopefully we get a chance to watch them celebrate around the mound at Yankee Stadium.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 24, 2016 10:49:11 GMT -5
The bullpen made Farrell look like an idiot all year; now they're making him look like a genius. There seem to be a couple of things at play here. (1) When lots of guys are pitching well, it's true: the manager looks good no matter who he puts in. (2) But even so, with this huge pen and all sorts of choices, Farrell is putting the most logical people in at particular points in the game, whereas earlier in the season, with a smaller pen, fewer choices, and presumably more defined roles, he was making strange choices of who to put in the game at particular times. (3) Which makes me wonder if it wasn't really health and fatigue issues (or at least, his perception of those issues) that caused Farrell to manage the pen the way he was earlier, rather than an inherently flawed decision making process. Maybe there were things going on with the pen that we don't and can't understand. I thought eric has had a great explanation why Farrell made such poor decisions. To paraphrase I think he has a pre-position role set and it takes forever for him to go away from that set. I think now he has established the roles to some extent - and they are all pitching lights out - he's going to keep doing it over-and-over.
The bullpen certainly has been amazing lately. These 2-1 games certainly weren't going our way in the past. Just an amazing turnaround from the bullpen whatever the reason.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 24, 2016 14:53:59 GMT -5
Comparing 2004, 2007, 2013 with the 16 squad. That is the order for the names below - the four years for the comparison - and just my first thought impressions on which team was strongest for which position
1B - Millar, Youkilis, Napoli, Ramirez - Pretty even on performance across all four years 2B - Bellhorn, Pedroia, Pedroia, Pedroia - say no more! 3B - Mueller/Youkilis, Lowell, Middlebrooks/Bogaerts, Shaw/Hill - stronger in 04 and 07 SS - Reese/Cabrera/Nomar, Lugo, Drew, Bogaerts - clearly 16 LF - Ramirez, Ramirez, Gomes/Nava, Holt/Benentendi/Young/Swihart - 04 and 07 CF - Damon, Crisp, Ellsbury, Bradley - strong throughout, 07 weakest RF - Kapler/Nixon, Drew, Victorino/Carp, Betts - clearly 16 C - Varitek/Mirabelli, Varitek, Saltamacchia/Ross, Leon/Hannigan/Vazquez - 04 and 07 DH - Ortiz, Ortiz, Ortiz, Ortiz - say no more!
starter - Schilling, Schilling, Lester, Pocello - strong group throughout starter - Martinez, DiceK, Lackey, Price - 04 and 16 starter - Wakefield, Wakefield, Dempster, Wright - clearly Wright until the injury, though Wake did his thing well starter - Lowe, Tavarez/Lester, Doubront, Rodriguez - 04 best starter - Arroyo, Beckett, Buccholz/Peavy, Buccholz/Pomeranz - 04 and 07
relief - Foulke, Papelbon, Uehara, Kimbrell - strong throughout relief - Timlin, Timlin, Tazawa, Uehara - strong throughout (with Koji now better) relief - Embree, Okajima, Breslow, Tazawa - Oki and 13 Breslow were strong relief - Williamson, Snyder, Miller, Barnes - 13 strongest relief - Leskanic, Lopez, Bailey, Ross/Abad - Ross pitching well relief - Kim, Delcarman, Workman, Hembree/Kelly - Manny was good, Workman had a strong debut relief - DiNardo, Gagne, Aceves, Ziegler/Layne - best now with Ziegler relief - Myers, Piniero, Mortensen/Wilson/Britton, Ramirez - scraping the bottom at this point
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 24, 2016 16:04:23 GMT -5
Comparing 2004, 2007, 2013 with the 16 squad. That is the order for the names below - the four years for the comparison - and just my first thought impressions on which team was strongest for which position 1B - Millar, Youkilis, Napoli, Ramirez - Pretty even on performance across all four years 2B - Bellhorn, Pedroia, Pedroia, Pedroia - say no more! 3B - Mueller/Youkilis, Lowell, Middlebrooks/Bogaerts, Shaw/Hill - stronger in 04 and 07 SS - Reese/Cabrera/Nomar, Lugo, Drew, Bogaerts - clearly 16 LF - Ramirez, Ramirez, Gomes/Nava, Holt/Benentendi/Young/Swihart - 04 and 07 CF - Damon, Crisp, Ellsbury, Bradley - strong throughout, 07 weakest RF - Kapler/Nixon, Drew, Victorino/Carp, Betts - clearly 16 C - Varitek/Mirabelli, Varitek, Saltamacchia/Ross, Leon/Hannigan/Vazquez - 04 and 07 DH - Ortiz, Ortiz, Ortiz, Ortiz - say no more! starter - Schilling, Schilling, Lester, Pocello - strong group throughout starter - Martinez, DiceK, Lackey, Price - 04 and 16 starter - Wakefield, Wakefield, Dempster, Wright - clearly Wright until the injury, though Wake did his thing well starter - Lowe, Tavarez/Lester, Doubront, Rodriguez - 04 best starter - Arroyo, Beckett, Buccholz/Peavy, Buccholz/Pomeranz - 04 and 07 relief - Foulke, Papelbon, Uehara, Kimbrell - strong throughout relief - Timlin, Timlin, Tazawa, Uehara - strong throughout (with Koji now better) relief - Embree, Okajima, Breslow, Tazawa - Oki and 13 Breslow were strong relief - Williamson, Snyder, Miller, Barnes - 13 strongest relief - Leskanic, Lopez, Bailey, Ross/Abad - Ross pitching well relief - Kim, Delcarman, Workman, Hembree/Kelly - Manny was good, Workman had a strong debut relief - DiNardo, Gagne, Aceves, Ziegler/Layne - best now with Ziegler relief - Myers, Piniero, Mortensen/Wilson/Britton, Ramirez - scraping the bottom at this point That's a lot of work, thanks ... it's tough to compare teams position-by-position like that, but this lays out the teams well. One minor point: #1 starter in 2007 was clearly Josh Beckett, not Schilling. Schill was pretty good that year, but no more than that. That was Beckett's only real "ace" year with the Red Sox. But, in general, one thing I notice right away is how few guys on those '04 and '07 teams could run. In '07, Coco was pretty quick, and Lugo wasn't a stiff, but they barely got on base. Everyone else was downright slow, until Ellsbury came on the scene late in the year. And '04 ... well, they were mashing the ball all over the park, so who cared if they could run. This team is way, way more dynamic that way. I also suspect they are better defensively than those other teams, with the exception of 2013. But 2004 had inferior defenders at almost every position when compared to 2016. Third base is probably the only big exception there. 2007 was a little spotty defensively, although Pedroia, Coco, Drew, and Youkilis were all really good. So, just looking at that overall without looking up numbers (this would be fairly easy to compare, though), I think the 2016 is better offensively than 2007 and 2013, better defensively than 2004 and probably 2007 ... pitching is tough because it's been volatile this year, but I'd put the current slate of starters probably first in that group, and the bullpen looks suddenly lights out. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with this being a better team, right now, than those teams in September of those years (although, again, they could easily lose a short series). Also, as an aside, people grossly underrate Bronson Arroyo's contribution to that 2004 team, I think. That was a thin pitching staff (Lowe was quite bad all year), and his emergence really saved them after Kim imploded.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 24, 2016 17:15:26 GMT -5
Camera guy sucks
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Post by thursty on Sept 24, 2016 17:30:16 GMT -5
kiermaier threw that from the wt on the fly
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 24, 2016 17:30:46 GMT -5
What an amazing throw by Kiermaier. Glad it was just late.
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Post by thursty on Sept 24, 2016 17:41:27 GMT -5
Dickerson out at home - and the Fenway crowd erupts
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Post by thursty on Sept 24, 2016 17:53:14 GMT -5
Mookie invoking discretion as better part of valor
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 24, 2016 18:04:31 GMT -5
Giving up 3 runs vs. the Rays isn't gonna help his Cy Young case.
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Post by tizzle on Sept 24, 2016 18:09:51 GMT -5
Well, hopefully this is Porcello's bad start and he won't have another one in the next month.
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Post by thursty on Sept 24, 2016 18:11:35 GMT -5
As a leadoff hitter, Mookie profiled as a cleanup hitter. 355/546/135 (6BB/12.8K)
As a cleanup hitter, he's profiled as a leadoff hitter 397/536/146 (8.7BB/7.6K)
Of course, wherever he's hit, he's profiled as great
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 24, 2016 18:17:52 GMT -5
You guys are forgetting that this is the best offense of all time. We got this.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 24, 2016 18:30:19 GMT -5
Buster Olney out there in the Twitter world saying Pablo could be back in time for the playoffs. Then Jim Bowden shut that down, right quick.
Can you imagine? It would overload the board, and I would be lovin' all the outrageous posts.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 24, 2016 18:51:27 GMT -5
Giving up 3 runs vs. the Rays isn't gonna help his Cy Young case. Unless he goes the full 9, I think it's slipping away. Too many people bunched up, and too tenuous a case. No margin for error (unless the competition implodes).
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Sept 24, 2016 18:56:45 GMT -5
Giving up 3 runs vs. the Rays isn't gonna help his Cy Young case. Unless he goes the full 9, I think it's slipping away. Too many people bunched up, and too tenuous a case. No margin for error (unless the competition implodes). Aside from the ERA, unless he has a quick inning here, the offense will only have another at bat to try and get him a win.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 24, 2016 19:15:53 GMT -5
A heated up Holt would be a nice asset in the post season.
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