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Pablo Sandoval, ”well ahead of schedule,“ could be used OCT
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Post by tjb21 on Sept 26, 2016 7:47:59 GMT -5
Hopefully Pablo is working himself into better game shape -- good for him if he is.
Shaw and Hill haven't been getting it done, but I agree with several of the above posters: it's very doubtful Sandoval is coming back in 2016
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 26, 2016 7:49:39 GMT -5
Not that I disagree with this but then what was Farrell doing throwing it out there? Either to motivate Travis Shaw or as a reward for Sandoval for continuing to work hard when he could have just packed it in and waited for 2017. Yeah, I agree and think it's more the latter, just a little public bouquet tossing in Sandoval's directions. I mean, like Eric said, I guess it's theoretically possible that a need could arise (incredible run of injuries), but I think this is just a "nice job, Panda" statement, possibly with the secondary aim of improving Sandoval's image with the fan base.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 26, 2016 8:12:03 GMT -5
Either to motivate Travis Shaw or as a reward for Sandoval for continuing to work hard when he could have just packed it in and waited for 2017. Yeah, I agree and think it's more the latter, just a little public bouquet tossing in Sandoval's directions. I mean, like Eric said, I guess it's theoretically possible that a need could arise (incredible run of injuries), but I think this is just a "nice job, Panda" statement, possibly with the secondary aim of improving Sandoval's image with the fan base. Sandoval's "public bouquet" is the seventeen large the club has been paying him through two seasons of little or no production. If he can show in the next week in Ft. Myers that he has progressed to the point of removal from the 60 day and a call up, then Farrell and DD should do it. A stint at the hot corner against Toronto in the last series would give JF evidence that he should or shouldn't be added to the playoff roster. We could use another bat at that position, with Hill, Shaw or Holt filling in as late inning defensive replacements, depending on who's kept on the roster.
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Post by patford on Sept 26, 2016 8:48:18 GMT -5
A detailed report on Sandoval from Ian Cundall would be appreciated.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Sept 26, 2016 9:15:47 GMT -5
As noted multiple times here, Shaw has struggled most of the year. How on earth can we pencil him in as our 1B next year? It just feels like a train wreck with Sandoval/Shaw as our CI. Travis will need at least 1/2 year in Pawt. Sign EE for a 3 yr slight overpay. Or Bautista on a 1 year pillow.
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 26, 2016 10:19:05 GMT -5
As noted multiple times here, Shaw has struggled most of the year. How on earth can we pencil him in as our 1B next year? It just feels like a train wreck with Sandoval/Shaw as our CI. Travis will need at least 1/2 year in Pawt. Sign EE for a 3 yr slight overpay. Or Bautista on a 1 year pillow. ....or make Panda the DH and ease him slowly back to the field. This way, DD does not surrender a first rounder. With International signings not in the cards, the team can ill afford to surrender picks, as low in the round they may be.
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Post by jchang on Sept 26, 2016 10:27:11 GMT -5
Train wreck Shaw is war 2.6 making mlb min. EE is war 3.8 making 10m this year, will probably cost 15m next year, a lot for +1.5 war. if we are going to spend money, I would rather replace a war 0 player with a war 4.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 26, 2016 11:24:37 GMT -5
Train wreck Shaw is war 2.6 making mlb min. EE is war 3.8 making 10m this year, will probably cost 15m next year, a lot for +1.5 war. if we are going to spend money, I would rather replace a war 0 player with a war 4. That's what we did this year by replacing Sandoval with Shaw. Well almost. (-2 to +1.6)
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Post by sox fan in nc on Sept 26, 2016 11:29:49 GMT -5
Train wreck Shaw is war 2.6 making mlb min. EE is war 3.8 making 10m this year, will probably cost 15m next year, a lot for +1.5 war. if we are going to spend money, I would rather replace a war 0 player with a war 4. I think most will agree that a huge chunk that 2.6 war was in April/May. Being streaky is fine (JBJ). It hurts the team if you have a good month or 2 at the beginning of the year, then throw up a donut the rest of the year. He's hit .199 since the AS break. That's not a SSS. Also, when I say train wreck, it's the combination/unknown of Pablo as well. I don't think Shaw would kill you as a 3B, just don't think he has the bat for 1B.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 26, 2016 12:53:47 GMT -5
Train wreck Shaw is war 2.6 making mlb min. EE is war 3.8 making 10m this year, will probably cost 15m next year, a lot for +1.5 war. if we are going to spend money, I would rather replace a war 0 player with a war 4. I think most will agree that a huge chunk that 2.6 war was in April/May. Being streaky is fine (JBJ). It hurts the team if you have a good month or 2 at the beginning of the year, then throw up a donut the rest of the year. He's hit .199 since the AS break. That's not a SSS. Also, when I say train wreck, it's the combination/unknown of Pablo as well. I don't think Shaw would kill you as a 3B, just don't think he has the bat for 1B. In the second half, he spent four games when he was locked in at the plate sitting and watching Moncada fail. I don't think there's any reason to believe that his overall record is not predictive. Shaw certainly doesn't have the bat for 1B, but he'd also be an easy Gold Glove winner there. He'd be a bit below average as a starter if he ends up there. But the plan would be that he starts the year at 3B, where he's average, with Sandoval at 1B, where he's likely to be average as well, and you wait for Moncada to take the 3B job, at which point you trade either Sandoval or Shaw and play the other at 1B for a bit longer. You don't just automatically upgrade positions that look to be average or a bit subpar. You have to look at the big picture, and in this case, that includes a) Sox still have the best offense in baseball even with the average / subpar players, b) potential superstars in Moncada and Devers just 0.5 to 1, and 1 to 1.5 years away for the positions, c) potential upgrade in Travis just 0.5 years away, d) upgrade costs you a draft pick and a boatload of money that you need to extend Betts, Bogaerts, and Bradley and e) if the upgrade is a DH it forces Hanley back to 1B where he loses about a win of value.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Sept 26, 2016 13:19:29 GMT -5
Sandoval being an average 1B feels like a reach to me. I know we'll have AB for the whole year which will help. Leon/CV to me will make an slightly above C position, not a Lucroy/Sanchez/Posey type. We'd be asking Mookie/Pedey/XB/Hanley/JBJ to be significantly above average. You've sold me on EE being too costly. I also like Napoli (basically a cheaper Trumbo).
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 26, 2016 18:14:49 GMT -5
If both Shaw and Sandoval are regulars on this team next year we are going to be a worse team next year for sure.
It should be 1 of the two, neither of the two never both of them.
Shaw currently has a 1.6 fWAR for the year. He accumulated 1.6 of that fWAR in April and May. the best thing we can say about Shaw this year is that he has provided more value than Sandoval last year. But that is certainly a low bar.
Do I trust Sandoval to revert to the ~2.5 WAR player he has been in the past? Not remotely, but if I had to bet on who is more likely to provide more value to this team in the future, I'd bet on Sandoval.
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Post by bobsacamento on Sept 26, 2016 19:30:18 GMT -5
Hopefully Pablo is working himself into better game shape -- good for him if he is. Shaw and Hill haven't been getting it done, but I agree with several of the above posters: it's very doubtful Sandoval is coming back in 2016 Couple pictures I took of Pablo on Friday, he's definitely shed some pounds
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Post by jchang on Sept 26, 2016 19:56:45 GMT -5
If both Shaw and Sandoval are regulars on this team next year we are going to be a worse team next year for sure. It should be 1 of the two, neither of the two never both of them. Shaw currently has a 1.6 fWAR for the year. He accumulated 1.6 of that fWAR in April and May. the best thing we can say about Shaw this year is that he has provided more value than Sandoval last year. But that is certainly a low bar. Do I trust Sandoval to revert to the ~2.5 WAR player he has been in the past? Not remotely, but if I had to bet on who is more likely to provide more value to this team in the future, I'd bet on Sandoval. Would you rather have Pablo at 17-18M, or Shaw at 0.5M? if Pablo plays well next year, then great, we might be able to unload the balance of his contract, or get a good trade return for Shaw from a low budget team
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 26, 2016 20:33:51 GMT -5
If both Shaw and Sandoval are regulars on this team next year we are going to be a worse team next year for sure. It should be 1 of the two, neither of the two never both of them. Shaw currently has a 1.6 fWAR for the year. He accumulated 1.6 of that fWAR in April and May. the best thing we can say about Shaw this year is that he has provided more value than Sandoval last year. But that is certainly a low bar. Do I trust Sandoval to revert to the ~2.5 WAR player he has been in the past? Not remotely, but if I had to bet on who is more likely to provide more value to this team in the future, I'd bet on Sandoval. Would you rather have Pablo at 17-18M, or Shaw at 0.5M? if Pablo plays well next year, then great, we might be able to unload the balance of his contract, or get a good trade return for Shaw from a low budget team Well, personally, I'd probably rather neither. Mainly because if we are willing to dump Sandoval, we should have no problem finding someone who can produce more than Shaw for a reasonable price. But if we aren't willing to dump Sandoval, then he is a sunk cost and how much they produce vs. how much they are paid is irrelevant. I believe Sandoval is more likely to provide more value than Shaw.
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Post by patford on Sept 26, 2016 21:08:08 GMT -5
Here's a question for those who are saying; "No way," "Never happening," "Forget about it." If the Sox happen to ice the division title and the best record in the AL, do you still have no interest in seeing what Sandoval could do over a three game span against the Jays?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 26, 2016 21:50:59 GMT -5
For those saying that Shaw costs less than Sandoval as a reason to play Shaw instead, you realize they're paying him anyway, right?
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Post by jchang on Sept 26, 2016 21:56:43 GMT -5
I am saying keeping shaw is better than signing another free agent at 15M. If Sandoval looks good for next year, we might entertain offers for shaw this winter. If not, play Sandoval next year to see if he's good enough to that someone will take his contract, but keep him if he's really good (pipe dream?)
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Post by patford on Sept 26, 2016 22:10:54 GMT -5
I am saying keeping shaw is better than signing another free agent at 15M. If Sandoval looks good for next year, we might entertain offers for shaw this winter. If not, play Sandoval next year to see if he's good enough to that someone will take his contract, but keep him if he's really good (pipe dream?) From my point of view this is the same issue as you get with Buchholz. People say that if he proves to be worth the 13 mil or 17 mil then you trade them. My thought is if a guy is worth what he's being paid you keep him. Now if Sandoval proves to be clearly not worth 17 mil and some other team wants him then by all means get rid of him. Same with Buchholz.
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Post by patford on Sept 26, 2016 22:23:47 GMT -5
Here's my hopeful take on Sandoval. He's a very talented guy who has been able to coast on talent. He's worked hard, but he's eaten harder. So he's 30 and he dives for a ball and because he weighs 300 pounds his 30 year old body fails him. He's 30. He's not a kid anymore and everyone (literally everyone) is laughing or cursing at him. Everyone loves the agile fat man but the joke is off when the fat man is just fat. So what does a guy do then? How does he respond. Is he going to become John Daly? Or is he going to make positive changes? I recall a short time ago when a whole lot of people were saying Ortiz was fat and done. You all saw it to. Sandoval is a very talented guy of the big stage type. He's had his lesson. Don't you want to see if he has learned?
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Post by sibbysisti on Sept 27, 2016 9:13:15 GMT -5
Here's a question for those who are saying; "No way," "Never happening," "Forget about it." If the Sox happen to ice the division title and the best record in the AL, do you still have no interest in seeing what Sandoval could do over a three game span against the Jays? That's what I advocated in an earlier post. Under that scenario, the Sox have nothing to lose. If he checks out, we have an extra bat for the playoffs. If not, he hits Winter baseball, spring training and is ready to compete for his job in March. I'm not impressed with Hill's performance since his acquisition, so he can sit if the Panda makes the team. As for next season, I see no reason for an either/or for Sandocal and Shaw. Travis can be useful as a PT 1B/3B. He certainly has the arm for third base, and maybe he can learn some outfield.
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 27, 2016 20:21:36 GMT -5
For those saying that Shaw costs less than Sandoval as a reason to play Shaw instead, you realize they're paying him anyway, right? Yeah. Sandoval is a sunk cost. Now it is just a question of who can bring more value to the team. It should come down to who the team thinks can provide more value going forward. Shaw or Sandoval. I think it's more likely to be Sandoval, not that I think he will be ever worth his contract or anything like that. But that being said, if someone wants to take a shot on Sandoval saving us maybe $20 million, I have no issue with the team dumping him either.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 28, 2016 8:38:22 GMT -5
For those saying that Shaw costs less than Sandoval as a reason to play Shaw instead, you realize they're paying him anyway, right? Yeah. Sandoval is a sunk cost. Now it is just a question of who can bring more value to the team. It should come down to who the team thinks can provide more value going forward. Shaw or Sandoval. I think it's more likely to be Sandoval, not that I think he will be ever worth his contract or anything like that. But that being said, if someone wants to take a shot on Sandoval saving us maybe $20 million, I have no issue with the team dumping him either.Did you feel that way about Hanley a year ago? A lot of people here did.
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Post by patford on Sept 28, 2016 10:38:20 GMT -5
Yeah. Sandoval is a sunk cost. Now it is just a question of who can bring more value to the team. It should come down to who the team thinks can provide more value going forward. Shaw or Sandoval. I think it's more likely to be Sandoval, not that I think he will be ever worth his contract or anything like that. But that being said, if someone wants to take a shot on Sandoval saving us maybe $20 million, I have no issue with the team dumping him either.Did you feel that way about Hanley a year ago? A lot of people here did. To say the least. The nature of the comments is identical. And of course if Sandoval comes back this year or next, and plays well, all will be forgiven in a matter of days.
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Post by mredsox89 on Sept 28, 2016 10:52:37 GMT -5
The bar is going to be very low for Sandoval, but even with that, assuming Moncada starts at AAA, if he tears it up, I hope they're willing to give him a chance to take over the job
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