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"The fraudulent myth of Big Papi"?
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Post by geostorm on Sept 26, 2016 11:18:53 GMT -5
I hadn't heard about the article, until today, mentioned during an EEI tease, going to a commercial break...I do see it was published, 9/21/16. None of the writer's accounting reveals anything not already public, that I can see; he does pull quite a bit, including related links, all together in an expansive opinion piece. theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-papiIf there was a 1-100 "Confidence meter", with "1" being "100% believe that was not a clean career", to "100" being "100% confidence Papi never used substances that were, at the time, illegal/banned"...how would that would break, across membership, here? I want to believe "100", but looking at the entirety of MLB history, and what's been made public, generally, and specific to Papi, I think I may be closer to 1, than to 100, if required to declare a opinion on my own Confidence meter...
(EDIT: to be clear, I'm opining strictly on being "clean" the entirety of his career; specific to quite a bit of the article, I don't agree at all, especially the author's opinion that Papi is a "jerk")
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 26, 2016 11:23:07 GMT -5
What a Yankee fan. Not worth taking seriously.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 26, 2016 11:28:02 GMT -5
Also by this author, within his last four articles:
Early June: Is LeBron James the NBA's greatest loser? Mid-April: Stop fawning over the Warriors. The Spurs are way more impressive.
"The myth of big Papi" by some dude who is wrong about f-ing everything.
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Post by jchang on Sept 26, 2016 11:39:22 GMT -5
Papi is worth no more than any other player with a WS .455/.576/.795 line. I'm sure someone can look up comps
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 26, 2016 11:50:06 GMT -5
Where I fall is that words are cheap, and envy is real. One of the very best things about being a Red Sox fan has been the utter pleasure of David Ortiz as a ball player, and as a person. We are all so lucky.
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Post by manfred on Sept 26, 2016 11:58:43 GMT -5
Obviously I am biased, and I love Papi as much as any athlete I've ever watched. But I believe in him. When McGuire was beating homerun records, I hated the guy, because he was obviously cheating. No one needed Canseco to tell you that. When Lance Armstrong was winning Tours, I stood by the assertion that LeMond was the greatest American cyclist for winning clean. Again, who could possibly believe Lance was clean? Foolish. A-Rod etc. So I tend to be skeptical. And I believe in Papi being clean.
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Post by redsox3in10 on Sept 26, 2016 12:02:13 GMT -5
I hate that I gave this article a click.
Is Papi perfect? No.
Is there a small cloud from the released names of those who failed drug tests? Yes, but it is small and has largely dissipated with his continued success since stronger testing has been in place. And the fact that players in that era trusted others (trainers, etc.) too much when it came to monitoring what went into their bodies makes it questionable for everyone of that timeframe to some degree. Is he a red-ass? Yep, a little bit. Just like anyone else who plays the game with their heart on their sleeve. The passion will come out as positive to a team's fans, and negative to the other teams. I hated Jeter and thought his fist-pumping antics were juvenile. Likely would have felt differently if he were on my team.
Has Papi absolutely accomplished ridiculous feats? Yes. And that is the most important thing here. We are genuinely fortunate to be fans of the Red Sox during the David Ortiz years. Build him a statue.
Finally, this writer is a douche and the article is hugely-biased click-bait. I give it no stars and wish its author ill fortune (something cold sore-based).
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Post by bluechip on Sept 26, 2016 12:06:16 GMT -5
Never read an article from that publication until this moment, and I have never previously heard about that writer. I do see that one of the (very few) articles he wrote talks about being a Yankee fan and another talks about being a Jet fan. There are probably more objective writers out their. Though this article did its job, it got some page views.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 26, 2016 12:29:46 GMT -5
I hadn't heard about the article, until today, mentioned during an EEI tease, going to a commercial break...I do see it was published, 9/21/16. None of the writer's accounting reveals anything not already public, that I can see; he does pull quite a bit, including related links, all together in an expansive opinion piece. theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-papiIf there was a 1-100 "Confidence meter", with "1" being "100% believe that was not a clean career", to "100" being "100% confidence Papi never used substances that were, at the time, illegal/banned"...how would that would break, across membership, here? I want to believe "100", but looking at the entirety of MLB history, and what's been made public, generally, and specific to Papi, I think I may be closer to 1, than to 100, if required to declare a opinion on my own Confidence meter...Not going to click on bull****. If that guy is trying to argue that his career looks like that of a PED user (and I think you have to make that argument if you're calling him a fraud), that's just so laughably wrong. Ortiz with Minnesota was essentially as good as he was in Boston in 2003 (something I said in 2003), except for very distinct stretches of terrible performance, all but one of which immediately preceded or followed a DL stint (the exception being the end of 2002, so it's reasonable to assume he was hurt then as well). IOW, when he was healthy, he was already Papi when we got him. And that's without factoring in that the Twins were trying to get him to change his style. Meanwhile, what's the PED that allows you to cut your strikeout rate to a career low at age 40? What's the more parsimonious explanation for Ortiz's ability to hit good pitches out of the ballpark, just as if he knew they were coming (while occasionally missing very hittable pitches) -- that he studies pitchers and video intensely and is rather a genius at guessing at what's coming (though of course hardly perfect), or that he has a PED that allows him to read pitcher's minds, but it doesn't always work? I mean, it's laughable. I'm 100% confident that Papi has never knowingly used banned substances. Any rational person should be. (There's also the fact that his numbers tanked for 10 games after the PED story broke, and then recovered in force, and Papi said during the collapse that he was losing sleep over the accusations. Which is the reaction of an innocent person. Find me the 10 games that Barry Bonds collapsed in after his PED accusations started.) I think there's a solid chance he had something in his system from a supplement that was technically banned when he was tested in '03, but that was not unusual at he time, and it's a world apart from doing steroids or HGH.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 26, 2016 12:34:27 GMT -5
Don't know, don't care.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Sept 26, 2016 12:44:59 GMT -5
The guy is a Yankees and Jest fan and you expect us to take him seriously? Surely you Jets.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 26, 2016 12:49:08 GMT -5
The zeitgeist of the Internet is very simple: it takes all of the backbiting and name-calling, the stuff that used to occur behind closed doors, and it throws it all out there. Twitter, as one example, is the digital equivalent of the across the fence rumor-mongering that some have always been so fond of. Clicking through that stuff is just what the site developers want you to do. It simply verifies their choice of down and dirty medium, with the bonus that they get to add you to the list of commodized eyeballs they sell through cross-site scripting. All the private spaces have gone public, so my choice is to try to be the same person in any and all arenas. If I'd filter those messages in private, I'll do the same in the public sphere. If there's a need to research a question such as the impact of PED use on Ortiz, or any other player, I'll do that without letting anyone else define the terms for me.
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Post by m1keyboots on Sept 26, 2016 12:50:51 GMT -5
I fall in the same line where I get jealous too when my friend gets a super cool girlfriend who stays with him despite his past and consistently beats my girlfriends assertions shes the best gf
Sigh
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Post by geostorm on Sept 26, 2016 13:18:56 GMT -5
I hadn't heard about the article, until today, mentioned during an EEI tease, going to a commercial break...I do see it was published, 9/21/16. None of the writer's accounting reveals anything not already public, that I can see; he does pull quite a bit, including related links, all together in an expansive opinion piece. theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-papiIf there was a 1-100 "Confidence meter", with "1" being "100% believe that was not a clean career", to "100" being "100% confidence Papi never used substances that were, at the time, illegal/banned"...how would that would break, across membership, here? I want to believe "100", but looking at the entirety of MLB history, and what's been made public, generally, and specific to Papi, I think I may be closer to 1, than to 100, if required to declare a opinion on my own Confidence meter...Not going to click on bull****. If that guy is trying to argue that his career looks like that of a PED user (and I think you have to make that argument if you're calling him a fraud), that's just so laughably wrong. Ortiz with Minnesota was essentially as good as he was in Boston in 2003 (something I said in 2003), except for very distinct stretches of terrible performance, all but one of which immediately preceded or followed a DL stint (the exception being the end of 2002, so it's reasonable to assume he was hurt then as well). IOW, when he was healthy, he was already Papi when we got him. And that's without factoring in that the Twins were trying to get him to change his style. Meanwhile, what's the PED that allows you to cut your strikeout rate to a career low at age 40? What's the more parsimonious explanation for Ortiz's ability to hit good pitches out of the ballpark, just as if he knew they were coming (while occasionally missing very hittable pitches) -- that he studies pitchers and video intensely and is rather a genius at guessing at what's coming (though of course hardly perfect), or that he has a PED that allows him to read pitcher's minds, but it doesn't always work? I mean, it's laughable. I'm 100% confident that Papi has never knowingly used banned substances. Any rational person should be. (There's also the fact that his numbers tanked for 10 games after the PED story broke, and then recovered in force, and Papi said during the collapse that he was losing sleep over the accusations. Which is the reaction of an innocent person. Find me the 10 games that Barry Bonds collapsed in after his PED accusations started.) I think there's a solid chance he had something in his system from a supplement that was technically banned when he was tested in '03, but that was not unusual at he time, and it's a world apart from doing steroids or HGH. Your last two paragraphs, reflects - and better communicates - how I feel about his career stats; on what he's been able to do, the last two years, that has been unprcedented in MLB history, one has to believe he is the hitting version of Nolan Ryan, able to sustain a high level of performance, at a very advanced age, and I do, there, as well...I 100% disagree w/ the author's opinion on Papi as a person...and sorry I took the (click) bait, as that was more his focus, it seems.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 26, 2016 13:19:29 GMT -5
I can't even bring myself to read this. Then again, I could never bring myself to read anything by Joseph Goebbels so go figure.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 26, 2016 14:32:40 GMT -5
I read it when it came out, thought it was utter nonsense, and disregarded. To think that every human's life story isn't a myth of some sorts is naive. He's been a great player for the city....we have been so lucky.
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Post by Coreno on Sept 26, 2016 15:04:44 GMT -5
I saw this article on FB when a Yankee fan that I went to HS with shared it last week. What a load of garbage. It is the most biased, whiniest excuse for journalism ever. I also caught the interview on the midday show on WEEI, which he completely stuttered, backpedaled, and deflected his way through. His main premise was that Ortiz puts on this big smile and "nice guy" guise, but is actually a huge jerk, but admitted during the interview that he has never had any interactions with Ortiz. Of course, a former teammate of Papi's, Lou Merloni, is one of the hosts of the show, who continued to vouch for what a great guy he is. The guy went as far as to tell Lou that Ortiz is a conman. The best part of Yankee fans passing this around is that this narrative probably fits better for a guy like Jeter.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 26, 2016 16:41:03 GMT -5
As a longtime Bonds apologist, lol at getting me to care about this even a tiny bit.
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Post by bigpupp on Sept 26, 2016 17:37:59 GMT -5
Papi has played almost his entire career while MLB has been testing. If he's not clean he absolutely would have been caught by now (and no, the 2003 list he showed up on - where there was no B sample - that only showed "inconclusive" doesn't count).
But as someone who also loved Bonds - I wouldn't give a damn if he had tested for something along the way.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 26, 2016 18:04:08 GMT -5
As a longtime Bonds apologist, lol at getting me to care about this even a tiny bit. I saw Bonds interviewed in person before the Marlins game that filled a day day of the recent SABR convention. He made me an apologist, too. I spent years complaining that the idiots in the BBWA weren't recognizing his greatness. Then he has to deal with inferior players getting ten times the press he ever got because they were cheating. And everyone was cheating. I always understood that this was the psychological rationale for his deciding, "hell, I'll cheat too, and I show them just how much better I actually am than everyone else." But I didn't understand where that was coming from until I saw him in person, just talking about his love of the game and how much he enjoyed being a hitting coach.
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Post by telson13 on Sept 26, 2016 18:28:15 GMT -5
I hadn't heard about the article, until today, mentioned during an EEI tease, going to a commercial break...I do see it was published, 9/21/16. None of the writer's accounting reveals anything not already public, that I can see; he does pull quite a bit, including related links, all together in an expansive opinion piece. theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-papiIf there was a 1-100 "Confidence meter", with "1" being "100% believe that was not a clean career", to "100" being "100% confidence Papi never used substances that were, at the time, illegal/banned"...how would that would break, across membership, here? I want to believe "100", but looking at the entirety of MLB history, and what's been made public, generally, and specific to Papi, I think I may be closer to 1, than to 100, if required to declare a opinion on my own Confidence meter...Not going to click on bull****. If that guy is trying to argue that his career looks like that of a PED user (and I think you have to make that argument if you're calling him a fraud), that's just so laughably wrong. Ortiz with Minnesota was essentially as good as he was in Boston in 2003 (something I said in 2003), except for very distinct stretches of terrible performance, all but one of which immediately preceded or followed a DL stint (the exception being the end of 2002, so it's reasonable to assume he was hurt then as well). IOW, when he was healthy, he was already Papi when we got him. And that's without factoring in that the Twins were trying to get him to change his style. Meanwhile, what's the PED that allows you to cut your strikeout rate to a career low at age 40? What's the more parsimonious explanation for Ortiz's ability to hit good pitches out of the ballpark, just as if he knew they were coming (while occasionally missing very hittable pitches) -- that he studies pitchers and video intensely and is rather a genius at guessing at what's coming (though of course hardly perfect), or that he has a PED that allows him to read pitcher's minds, but it doesn't always work? I mean, it's laughable. I'm 100% confident that Papi has never knowingly used banned substances. Any rational person should be. (There's also the fact that his numbers tanked for 10 games after the PED story broke, and then recovered in force, and Papi said during the collapse that he was losing sleep over the accusations. Which is the reaction of an innocent person. Find me the 10 games that Barry Bonds collapsed in after his PED accusations started.) I think there's a solid chance he had something in his system from a supplement that was technically banned when he was tested in '03, but that was not unusual at he time, and it's a world apart from doing steroids or HGH. I can't say I'm 100% sure he's clean, but here are my major issues with the "he's a cheater" narrative: 1) His breakout coincided with testing. So if his numbers suddenly jumped AFTER testing were implemented, that is diametrically opposed to the idea that he was on PEDs. If anything, he should have tanked. 2) He started playing his best at exactly the age when most players do, his mid-late-20s. If every player who broke out at or near 27 were a presumed PED-user, then 70-80% of the league is a cheater. 3) Only two names were released from the initial screen. Both Red Sox, both their biggest stars. By a NY source/outlet. At the height of the rivalry. I find that a lot more suspicious than the idea that Ortiz was juicing. Who are the other 102? 4) If the "source" got names, I'm sure that they got substances, or its at least likely that they did. That no substance was named means that the story was better without it. If it was steroids/HGH, that's a huge story. If it was, say, a minor stimulant, not so much. So I'm 95% sure that the substance was minor, and withheld to create continued interest, rather than announcing a non-story. 5) Ortiz has never been tabbed after, despite extensive testing. And there have been plenty of other big names busted. Plus, I'm sure that whoever picked up in the original story did further investigation, because if there were something to find, it would be a huge deal. That's a career-maker, given the number of NYY fans out there (and fans of other teams like St Louis and TB) that would eat up hearing exactly what they want to hear. Other than A-Rod, Ortiz has, behind the scenes, probably been the biggest subject of investigation in MLB. And ZERO findings. 6) As Eric said, Ortiz was both clearly upset, AND he did what people usually do when falsely accused: tried to ignore it, then flatly denied it. He never launched on an extensive campaign to explain/refute. It's a fairly well-established psychology tenet that lying is almost invariably followed by (ever more) complex explanations and deflections. 7) Ortiz has never undergone any physical transformation. 8) Again, as Eric said, the underlying data (batted-ball profiles, scouting, K and BB rates, etc.) are consistent with hitting skill, not some sudden jump in exit velocity in the absence of skill development.
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 26, 2016 18:31:46 GMT -5
The whole steroid theory with Ortiz is the most lolworthy thing I've read on the internet with Ortiz.
So you are going to tell me, this guy who played almost the entirety of his prime years in his career after the steroid era, was tested with ridiculous scrutiny, never failed any of those tests except for the supposedly "anonymous" steroid study "test?"
Someone who has been playing at an outrageous level for 14 seasons, hasn't slipped up once and been busted for steroids? Maybe, just maybe, he's an otherworldly talent whose career has been tainted by drug cheats from past times because people don't want to believe his stats.
I think the biggest evidence of Ortiz being clean, besides the ridiculous amount of drug tests he passed, is his little mid career stumble in 2008-10. You didn't see Barry Bonds' stats stumble during his steroid days. You didn't see Mark McGuire's steroid stats stumble. You definitely didn't see Manny Ramirez's steroid stats stumble until after he was finally busted. And Alex Rodriguez literally never had an off year until late in his career when the steroid hunt was on with regards to him. No one else who has ever been linked to steroids ever had a point in their career until they were busted or old where their stats dipped across the board for 3 seasons.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 26, 2016 23:48:24 GMT -5
The whole steroid theory with Ortiz is the most lolworthy thing I've read on the internet with Ortiz. So you are going to tell me, this guy who played almost the entirety of his prime years in his career after the steroid era, was tested with ridiculous scrutiny, never failed any of those tests except for the supposedly "anonymous" steroid study "test?" Someone who has been playing at an outrageous level for 14 seasons, hasn't slipped up once and been busted for steroids? Maybe, just maybe, he's an otherworldly talent whose career has been tainted by drug cheats from past times because people don't want to believe his stats. I think the biggest evidence of Ortiz being clean, besides the ridiculous amount of drug tests he passed, is his little mid career stumble in 2008-10. You didn't see Barry Bonds' stats stumble during his steroid days. You didn't see Mark McGuire's steroid stats stumble. You definitely didn't see Manny Ramirez's steroid stats stumble until after he was finally busted. And Alex Rodriguez literally never had an off year until late in his career when the steroid hunt was on with regards to him. No one else who has ever been linked to steroids ever had a point in their career until they were busted or old where their stats dipped across the board for 3 seasons. Great point in the last paragraph. Of course, the trolls think that this is when he started juicing (again), but we know what turned his career back around, e.g., when he was carrying more weight, batting in his slight crouch hurt his knees, and he had a big hole versus LHP in his more upright stance.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 27, 2016 0:48:50 GMT -5
Have we all forgotten that the test in question was done before testing? That it was a random, completely confidential study to determine whether or not MLB should even conduct such tests. The data was so confidential that the whole thing was protected from leaks by official seal of the court. That seal was illegally broken by two NYFY fans, both NY attornies who, to my knowledge, never faced any consequences. Because these documents remain sealed neither Ortiz nor the Sox nor their attornies can even learn what Papi supposedly took in this confidential test. There is no need to believe in Papi's innocence. The facts are on his side. The Limbaugh-like author is merely supporting those who want to argue against his HOF candidacy. Jester and Marino would reject such antics
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 9, 2016 9:21:23 GMT -5
I remember that the NYT article released 103 names while claiming that 88 players had tested positive for a banned substance. That means 15 names were on that list in error, roughly 15% of the total. A huge margin of error.
Do I misremember?
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