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Offseason front office thread (10/16: Hazen to AZ)
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 16:30:16 GMT -5
gammons weighs in Peter Gammons @pgammo 6m6 minutes agoMassachusetts, USA If you know the Red Sox, how that talent came from like so many with the Cubs, the only logical replacement for Hazen is Amiel Sawdaye, who
Peter Gammons @pgammo 4m4 minutes agoMassachusetts, USA @pgammo is responsible for so mcny of the players and is showing up on many search lists. Wrong hire? The core of the organization leaves
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Post by mjammz on Oct 16, 2016 16:33:05 GMT -5
Also, doesn't Wren just work out of Atlanta. I'm not sure he's going to be promoted to GM and have to work in Boston 20 hours a day, 350 days a year. Amiel Sawdaye or Alard Baird are much more obvious choices.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 16:50:10 GMT -5
Also, doesn't Wren just work out of Atlanta. I'm not sure he's going to be promoted to GM and have to work in Boston 20 hours a day, 350 days a year. Amiel Sawdaye or Alard Baird are much more obvious choices. yes
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,948
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Post by jimoh on Oct 16, 2016 17:23:26 GMT -5
Pete Abraham @peteabe 2h2 hours ago Would not expect this to happen. But shouldn't the Red Sox at least consider promoting Farrell to GM and naming Lovullo manager?
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,154
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Post by radiohix on Oct 16, 2016 17:25:59 GMT -5
It is hard to overstate the damage that Dombrowski has done in just a year; go back and look at the thread when his hiring was first announced. All the flackeys who instinctively backed the corporate man were convinced that we were wrong. And you know what - you were right. We all underestimated just how incompetent and how quickly he would steer the ship toward disaster. All the words wasted on Farrell, when the guy with the loaded gun is an atavistic neanderthal WHAT THE F***** are you talking about? Damage? Trading Margot and Espinosa, 2 elite prospects, for very little return isn't enough damage for you?
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 17:28:08 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 17:28:59 GMT -5
WHAT THE F***** are you talking about? Damage? Trading Margot and Espinosa, 2 elite prospects, for very little return isn't enough damage for you? "very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable....
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 16, 2016 17:42:52 GMT -5
Well we should get at least as much compensation from Arizona as we got from San Diego.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 16, 2016 17:43:32 GMT -5
Trading Margot and Espinosa, 2 elite prospects, for very little return isn't enough damage for you? "very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... A whole lot less than they'd get if they traded that return now.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,154
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Post by radiohix on Oct 16, 2016 17:53:03 GMT -5
Trading Margot and Espinosa, 2 elite prospects, for very little return isn't enough damage for you? "very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... Being debatable depends on how much did you enjoy the Kimbrel experience or Pomeranz 4.78 FIP.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 17:57:18 GMT -5
"very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... A whole lot less than they'd get if they traded that return now. Yah...no... There is no guarantee we would have gotten more if we traded them this offseason rather than last... Want one key example? Michael Bowden Want another? lars anderson. For all we know, we hang on to them, (like we did with those two even though teams were asking about them) and their stock drops tremendously..
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 16, 2016 18:49:28 GMT -5
Making John Farrell the General Manager would solve two problems.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 16, 2016 19:29:06 GMT -5
Dombrowski selected Hazen for GM when Cherington resigned. While Mike had the title, the power for operations was with DD. Can't blame Hazen for wanting the same authority. He deserved it after toiling in the organization for eleven years.
Don't know if Wren is interested in moving from Atlanta to assume the same position as Hazen. But he is one of Dave's closest confidants. So I don't see that DD's m.o. would alter much.
As for Lovullo, this may be his best opportunity to score a Manager's job.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Oct 16, 2016 21:11:26 GMT -5
Pete Abraham @peteabe 2h2 hours ago Would not expect this to happen. But shouldn't the Red Sox at least consider promoting Farrell to GM and naming Lovullo manager? Abrahams is becoming as bad as Cafardo. I know that Farrell worked in the Indians farm system, but that makes no sense. How about hiring Sswdye as GM and Cora as bench coach ?
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 16, 2016 21:35:38 GMT -5
Watch the sox hire Rubén Amaro Jr as the next GM
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Post by Guidas on Oct 16, 2016 21:36:00 GMT -5
Making John Farrell the General Manager would solve two problems. Endorse.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 16, 2016 22:10:35 GMT -5
For everyone ready to jump based on the fact that Hazen left... do you actually have ANY idea what he did this year? What influence he had on anything the organization did?
If he was supposedly a "balance" against the "DD IS GUNNA TRADE ALL THE PROSPEKTS" thing, then he did a pretty terrible job, didn't he?
Seriously, the GM's job in this organization is in part to help advise Dombrowski—along with several other guys—and to handle the more mundane transactions that aren't going to rise to Dombrowski's level. Dombrowski's not going to not make a trade based on what the GM is telling him - it's more like he may try to put one guy in a trade instead of another based on what the GM is telling him.
I honestly don't think the GM matters very much. Unless you were concerned about who the assistant GM was under Cherington, Theo, and everyone else going back from there, you really shouldn't be all that concerned with who the GM is now, imo.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 16, 2016 22:16:50 GMT -5
Trading Margot and Espinosa, 2 elite prospects, for very little return isn't enough damage for you? "very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... Why is it EXTREMELY debatable? I was in favor of the Kimbrel deal because I thought they'd get something resembling elite dominant relief pitching for a blocked prospect. Instead they got a guy who walked 5 batters/9 innings and had too many implosions for my taste. And the trade that I hated from the get-go, they gave up one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball for a guy who had never had a full successful season of starting pitching, and wound up being highly mediocre, giving up a bunch of homers, including the one that pretty much finished off their season, and oh yeah, he's a major injury risk. That's a good amount of damage. I really don't see how you can think otherwise. I wasn't mad at the logic of the Kimbrel deal, but it hasn't worked out so far, and the Pomeranz deal has disaster written all over it. Thus far the Sox have gotten very little out of the deal, and it wouldn't shock me to see him spending his last two seasons with the Red Sox getting Tommy John surgery and then having to rehab and having his contract up when it's time to come back. If he deals Devers and/or Moncada, I'm going to be pretty ticked off. Now I wonder what the fall-out in the organization is going to be with Hazen gone. I think his hiring kept a lot of their best minds in the front office. His departure will likely result in a further brain drain, which has been occurring with amazing frequency since Theo left.
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 16, 2016 22:40:05 GMT -5
For everyone ready to jump based on the fact that Hazen left... do you actually have ANY idea what he did this year? What influence he had on anything the organization did? If he was supposedly a "balance" against the "DD IS GUNNA TRADE ALL THE PROSPEKTS" thing, then he did a pretty terrible job, didn't he? Seriously, the GM's job in this organization is in part to help advise Dombrowski—along with several other guys—and to handle the more mundane transactions that aren't going to rise to Dombrowski's level. Dombrowski's not going to not make a trade based on what the GM is telling him - it's more like he may try to put one guy in a trade instead of another based on what the GM is telling him. I honestly don't think the GM matters very much. Unless you were concerned about who the assistant GM was under Cherington, Theo, and everyone else going back from there, you really shouldn't be all that concerned with who the GM is now, imo. Sure, no one knows what exactly Hazen did, but given that DD's style is in stark contrast to the average SoxProspects member's mindset, you hope that his top "advisor" is at least someone who aligns with that mindset a lot more. The fear of that top advisor becoming someone like Frank Wren is a sensible one, in my opinion -- even though we all know DD is the one calling all the shots in the end, and we have no way of quantifying the impact of any of his underlings, it's reasonable to take this news as more bad than negligible.
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Post by larrycook on Oct 16, 2016 22:48:46 GMT -5
The brain drain from the Red Sox front office will eventually affect the product on the field.
I am very concerned about dombrowski and his ability to get us to the next level.
Really hope ownership is paying attention.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 16, 2016 22:59:12 GMT -5
For everyone ready to jump based on the fact that Hazen left... do you actually have ANY idea what he did this year? What influence he had on anything the organization did? If he was supposedly a "balance" against the "DD IS GUNNA TRADE ALL THE PROSPEKTS" thing, then he did a pretty terrible job, didn't he? Seriously, the GM's job in this organization is in part to help advise Dombrowski—along with several other guys—and to handle the more mundane transactions that aren't going to rise to Dombrowski's level. Dombrowski's not going to not make a trade based on what the GM is telling him - it's more like he may try to put one guy in a trade instead of another based on what the GM is telling him. I honestly don't think the GM matters very much. Unless you were concerned about who the assistant GM was under Cherington, Theo, and everyone else going back from there, you really shouldn't be all that concerned with who the GM is now, imo. Sure, no one knows what exactly Hazen did, but given that DD's style is in stark contrast to the average SoxProspects member's mindset, you hope that his top "advisor" is at least someone who aligns with that mindset a lot more. The fear of that top advisor becoming someone like Frank Wren is a sensible one, in my opinion -- even though we all know DD is the one calling all the shots in the end, and we have no way of quantifying the impact of any of his underlings, it's reasonable to take this news as more bad than negligible. But here's the thing: Wren was already advising him. Does anyone think Dombrowski would not do something he wanted to do based on what Mike Hazen said to him?
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Post by mattpicard on Oct 17, 2016 0:08:32 GMT -5
Sure, no one knows what exactly Hazen did, but given that DD's style is in stark contrast to the average SoxProspects member's mindset, you hope that his top "advisor" is at least someone who aligns with that mindset a lot more. The fear of that top advisor becoming someone like Frank Wren is a sensible one, in my opinion -- even though we all know DD is the one calling all the shots in the end, and we have no way of quantifying the impact of any of his underlings, it's reasonable to take this news as more bad than negligible. But here's the thing: Wren was already advising him. Does anyone think Dombrowski would not do something he wanted to do based on what Mike Hazen said to him? I'd like to think that Hazen's voice had at least a slight effect on Dombrowski. Enough to be significant factor, in that Hazen could "save" us from things DD was set on? No, definitely not. But it's nice to imagine that, by surrounding DD with folks like Hazen, Sawdaye, O'Halloran, etc., some of their line of thinking could rub off on him. I realize that's a huge wish -- DD, at this point, is who he is, and still has had people like Wren in his ear anyway. So yeah, this really isn't a big deal, but it's still a bummer. Let's hope the GM slot goes to someone like Sawdaye over Wren, even if, again, whoever slots into that role is unlikely to change DD's decision making.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 17, 2016 0:34:08 GMT -5
Maybe Eddie Romero gets a chance to be an assistant gm with Arizona.
Dombroski was probably listening more to Wren anyways.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 17, 2016 0:55:18 GMT -5
"very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... Why is it EXTREMELY debatable? I was in favor of the Kimbrel deal because I thought they'd get something resembling elite dominant relief pitching for a blocked prospect. Instead they got a guy who walked 5 batters/9 innings and had too many implosions for my taste. And the trade that I hated from the get-go, they gave up one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball for a guy who had never had a full successful season of starting pitching, and wound up being highly mediocre, giving up a bunch of homers, including the one that pretty much finished off their season, and oh yeah, he's a major injury risk. That's a good amount of damage. I really don't see how you can think otherwise. I wasn't mad at the logic of the Kimbrel deal, but it hasn't worked out so far, and the Pomeranz deal has disaster written all over it. Thus far the Sox have gotten very little out of the deal, and it wouldn't shock me to see him spending his last two seasons with the Red Sox getting Tommy John surgery and then having to rehab and having his contract up when it's time to come back. If he deals Devers and/or Moncada, I'm going to be pretty ticked off. Now I wonder what the fall-out in the organization is going to be with Hazen gone. I think his hiring kept a lot of their best minds in the front office. His departure will likely result in a further brain drain, which has been occurring with amazing frequency since Theo left. Your way of thinking is very short sighted. Players have down years, everyone thought Ortiz was done like 5 years ago and look at what he did. Truth is Kimbrel was best reliever on a playoff team. Sure he had a down year, but it's not like the trade was for one year. Same thing goes for Pomeranz, who I know you hate to hear this might be the reason we made the playoffs. I didn't love that trade, but Pomeranz did pitch well outside of his first start, until the innings jump caught up to him. The idea that those two trades have damaged the Red Sox long term is crazy, no one knows that yet. For all we know Kimbrel and Pomeranz could be lights out next year and help us win another title. I did love AE upside, but he didn't have the year I thought he would. Even at his young age, I expected a lot more this year. I have to think Dave didn't like what he was seeing.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 17, 2016 1:07:56 GMT -5
"very little return" thats EXTREMELY debatable.... A whole lot less than they'd get if they traded that return now. How exactly is that true? Out of the 3 legit prospect traded in those deals, only Margot had a good year and it wasn't a great year because he has yet to show any power. Guerra tanked and his value is 1/10 of what it was when he was traded. AE went on to do even worse for the Padres than he did for use. I would love to know what reliever and starter you could trade those players for now that are so much better than Kimbrel and Pomeranz. Any increase in Margot value, is not even close to the value lost with Guerra.
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