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Offseason front office thread (10/16: Hazen to AZ)
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 24, 2016 20:00:15 GMT -5
Lol another day, another front office executive gone. Is anyone else noticing that Dave Dombrowski is turning into the Bobby Valentine of the front office? The guy no one wants to be around or work with?
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 20:13:45 GMT -5
Evan Drellich evandrellich 9m9 minutes ago Source: the Diamondbacks have yet to request permission on Torey Lovullo, waiting for Amiel Sawdaye to make his choice. Evan Drellich evandrellich 8m8 minutes ago Amiel Sawdaye choosing between three assistant GM like roles: with the Sox, Arizona and Twins. Multiple sources expect he joins D-backs Evan Drellich evandrellich 3m3 minutes ago Evan Drellich Retweeted Evan Drellich To clarify: choice for Amiel Sawdaye is really between Arizona and Red Sox.
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Post by templeusox on Oct 24, 2016 20:26:24 GMT -5
The complete ravaging of the front office is nearly complete. Welcome back to the stone age with the new worst front office in the sport. I guess it's just amazing how hard ownership leaned into this regression. It's going to be an ugly five years.
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 24, 2016 20:27:25 GMT -5
I think Sawdaye will wind up in Arizona. He knows his opinions will probably carry a lot more clout with Hazen then it would with Dombrowski. Wren is probably the only person whose opinion carries a lot of clout with Dombrowski. I don't think the Sox will wind up having an assistant GM type. I don't think I'll every truly understand why Henry has been so willing to give so much autonomy to Dombrowski but would never truly give Theo that same autonomy? It's almost as if Dombrowski is a grown up and Theo is just a teenager. Can't give him that kind of power. It's almost like Nick Cafardo logic. exactly this
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 20:30:15 GMT -5
The complete ravaging of the front office is nearly complete. Welcome back to the stone age with the new worst front office in the sport. I guess it's just amazing how hard ownership leaned into this regression. It's going to be an ugly five years. LOLOLLOLOLOLOLO this a complete and total overreaction... Step away from the ledge
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 24, 2016 20:30:19 GMT -5
I think Sawdaye will wind up in Arizona. He knows his opinions will probably carry a lot more clout with Hazen then it would with Dombrowski. Wren is probably the only person whose opinion carries a lot of clout with Dombrowski. I don't think the Sox will wind up having an assistant GM type. I don't think I'll every truly understand why Henry has been so willing to give so much autonomy to Dombrowski but would never truly give Theo that same autonomy? It's almost as if Dombrowski is a grown up and Theo is just a teenager. Can't give him that kind of power. It's almost like Nick Cafardo logic. Losing Sawdaye would be a big blow. The issue wasn't Henry, it was Larry Lucchino and Theo. Sure you can say why not get rid of Larry and keep Theo, but Theo wanted to move on. I mean the Red Sox fans would have never gone for the type of rebuild that Theo did with Cubs. That's why I can't wait to see how Theo does over the long term for Cubs. Are Cub fans going to be OK with a couple of bridge years to rebuild rotation a few years from now? Theo does have a great long term plan, but it doesn't play well in markets that want to win year in and year out. DD on the other hand has shown he can produce winning teams year after year, without a bridge year or two. Owners want to make money and bridge years mean the team is going to lose a lot of money. In general I think fans are overrating Theo and underrating DD. They are two of the best in the game.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 20:37:57 GMT -5
The complete ravaging of the front office is nearly complete. Welcome back to the stone age with the new worst front office in the sport. I guess it's just amazing how hard ownership leaned into this regression. It's going to be an ugly five years. seriously how can you not see that this is hyperbole to the extreme..... "worst front office in the sport" PLEASE
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 24, 2016 20:49:41 GMT -5
I hope Dave Dombrowski is as good as everyone of his defenders says he is.
Pretty soon he will be working alone in the Sox front office with his buddy Frank Wren trying to put a whole baseball team together.
This would be 3 front office executives that will have left since the Sox were eliminated from the playoffs if Amiel Sawdaye leaves and 4 front office executives that has CHOSEN to leave since Dombrowski has been hired.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 24, 2016 20:59:01 GMT -5
The complete ravaging of the front office is nearly complete. Welcome back to the stone age with the new worst front office in the sport. I guess it's just amazing how hard ownership leaned into this regression. It's going to be an ugly five years. seriously how can you not see that this is hyperbole to the extreme..... "worst front office in the sport" PLEASE Temple has a certain gift for hyperbole but the Sox are hemorrhaging talent here. This is bad.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 21:12:50 GMT -5
Alex Speier @alexspeier 14s15 seconds ago Indeed, multiple major league sources expect that the Sox aren't going to hire a GM.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 21:13:15 GMT -5
Alex Speier @alexspeier 2m2 minutes ago The Red Sox were offering Amiel Sawdaye asst GM role, but not GM...adding to sense in .@peteabe report that Sox might not hire a GM.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 24, 2016 21:14:18 GMT -5
Nick Piecoro @nickpiecoro Source confirms Red Sox exec Amiel Sawdaye will become Dbacks' senior vice president and assistant general manager.
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Post by templeusox on Oct 24, 2016 21:27:34 GMT -5
Who's going to be in charge of actual day to day baseball ops? Who's in charge of not only getting data, but analyzing it? This isn't 1995. Baseball Ops departments are comprised of dozens of people. Not one person making every decision from a luxury suite. I'm terrified.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 24, 2016 21:33:48 GMT -5
Nick Piecoro @nickpiecoro Source confirms Red Sox exec Amiel Sawdaye will become Dbacks' senior vice president and assistant general manager. There it is. He's gone. I don't really care what Dave Dombrowski's reputation in the past is, your only as good as the people you work with and surround yourself with. Right now, DD is working with his buddy Frank Wren and that's really about it. Even James Bond can't do this job alone.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 24, 2016 22:50:18 GMT -5
Only waiting for Eddie Romero to go and take his crew with him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 24, 2016 23:47:06 GMT -5
It's looking more and more like it's a Dombrowski dictatorship and that no young aspiring innovative executive is going to want to get involved.
I'm fine with Dombrowski's "scouting" skills but have a lot of doubt regarding his assessing of analytics. The amount of talent leaving the front office is jarring, and it's already jarring watching what has transpired in the playoffs as former executives, managers, and players are succeeding while the current Red Sox are being kept afloat by the core of those who have departed. I'd be very worried about this team beyond the next five years or so.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 24, 2016 23:55:47 GMT -5
I think Sawdaye will wind up in Arizona. He knows his opinions will probably carry a lot more clout with Hazen then it would with Dombrowski. Wren is probably the only person whose opinion carries a lot of clout with Dombrowski. I don't think the Sox will wind up having an assistant GM type. I don't think I'll every truly understand why Henry has been so willing to give so much autonomy to Dombrowski but would never truly give Theo that same autonomy? It's almost as if Dombrowski is a grown up and Theo is just a teenager. Can't give him that kind of power. It's almost like Nick Cafardo logic. Losing Sawdaye would be a big blow. The issue wasn't Henry, it was Larry Lucchino and Theo. Sure you can say why not get rid of Larry and keep Theo, but Theo wanted to move on. I mean the Red Sox fans would have never gone for the type of rebuild that Theo did with Cubs. That's why I can't wait to see how Theo does over the long term for Cubs. Are Cub fans going to be OK with a couple of bridge years to rebuild rotation a few years from now? Theo does have a great long term plan, but it doesn't play well in markets that want to win year in and year out. DD on the other hand has shown he can produce winning teams year after year, without a bridge year or two. Owners want to make money and bridge years mean the team is going to lose a lot of money. In general I think fans are overrating Theo and underrating DD. They are two of the best in the game. Sure John Henry is part of the issue. It's HIS team. He should have made it very clear that Theo reports to him and only him and that he should be able to build the team according to his vision and not have to cowtow to the marketing and branding part of the business. And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. I don't really see how you can say that fans are overrating Theo. I mean he takes the Cubs job as they're terrible and they change the draft rules on him so he can't just use money to get an advantage, yet here he is, having built the Cubs on great draft picks, shrewd trades (Arrietta for example) and smart signings (like Lester), and now the Cubs are a juggernaut that should be a strong bet to compete for Championships for the rest of the decade.
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Post by Coreno on Oct 24, 2016 23:58:55 GMT -5
The complete ravaging of the front office is nearly complete. Welcome back to the stone age with the new worst front office in the sport. I guess it's just amazing how hard ownership leaned into this regression. It's going to be an ugly five years. LOLOLLOLOLOLOLO this a complete and total overreaction... Step away from the ledge haaaaaaaaaaave ya met temple?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 25, 2016 2:12:50 GMT -5
Losing Sawdaye would be a big blow. The issue wasn't Henry, it was Larry Lucchino and Theo. Sure you can say why not get rid of Larry and keep Theo, but Theo wanted to move on. I mean the Red Sox fans would have never gone for the type of rebuild that Theo did with Cubs. That's why I can't wait to see how Theo does over the long term for Cubs. Are Cub fans going to be OK with a couple of bridge years to rebuild rotation a few years from now? Theo does have a great long term plan, but it doesn't play well in markets that want to win year in and year out. DD on the other hand has shown he can produce winning teams year after year, without a bridge year or two. Owners want to make money and bridge years mean the team is going to lose a lot of money. In general I think fans are overrating Theo and underrating DD. They are two of the best in the game. Sure John Henry is part of the issue. It's HIS team. He should have made it very clear that Theo reports to him and only him and that he should be able to build the team according to his vision and not have to cowtow to the marketing and branding part of the business. And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. I don't really see how you can say that fans are overrating Theo. I mean he takes the Cubs job as they're terrible and they change the draft rules on him so he can't just use money to get an advantage, yet here he is, having built the Cubs on great draft picks, shrewd trades (Arrietta for example) and smart signings (like Lester), and now the Cubs are a juggernaut that should be a strong bet to compete for Championships for the rest of the decade. From what I know Lucchino was behind things like redoing Fenway. Things like adding seats to green monster. Lucchino made Henry a lot of money and he brought in Theo. So it's not crazy for Henry to trust Lucchino, as the Red Sox is a business for Henry. Sure as a fan you don't care about Red Sox making money, but Henry sure does. In Henry's mind he had both a president that made him a ton and brought in talented baseball guys that won games and titles. Why undermine your president? If I remember right they were also very good friends. I wanted to add, look at all the talent the Sox had guys like Theo, Hoyer, Charington and Hazen those guys were brought in by Lucchino if I'm not mistaken, not Theo. As far as rebuilding like the Cubs did, you can't tell me the Cubs didn't make a lot less money than they did this year. Things like ticket sales are more of a result of how good people think the team is going to be, than how good they turn out to be. That's why you always here front office guys pushing for big moves after a bad year. It gives the fans hope and a reason to pay increased amounts for tickets as soon as they go on sale. Quick fact for you, it's DD that has the biggest turn around in Baseball history with Detroit, not Theo. Very few people were every given the time Theo had to turn around the Cubs. He did a great job, but he took over in 2011 and didn't start winning till 2015. If you can be sellers at trade deadline for 4 years it makes rebuilding your farm system a lot easier. If you gave Ben Charington that amount of time I think he could have done a good job restocking the Cubs. That's why I think Theo is overrated, it's not like he turned the Cubs around overnight. I mean DD did the same thing in Montreal and Florida when given the chance, he stocked those teams with tons of young talent. I also think people forget the bad moves Theo had while in Boston and he did have a bunch of them at the end. There's also the fact that our second title in 2007 was in large part a result of the Beckett and Lowell trade that Theo didn't even make. Theo is a great President/GM, but so is DD. Going on and on about Theo and the Cubs and overlooking what DD did in Montreal, Florida and Detroit is just crazy. What if Florida's owner hadn't ordered DD to strip down that team? He could easily have won more titles.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Oct 25, 2016 4:53:38 GMT -5
That is s significant brain drain leaving the Red Sox. I don't get the GM position being left empty. Is there any team in MLB who is downsizing their front office personnel as much as the Red Sox? It would seem more than ever under the draft and international signing rules that teams would want as much talented personnel in the front office as possible. I also don't think DD is a top 5 baseball executive so it makes these departures even more concerning.
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Post by chud on Oct 25, 2016 5:35:14 GMT -5
I've been reading the "brain drain" stuff and think it's not only a bit overblown, but it's not the correct way to look at this situation. Good organizations lose good people, bottom line...Look at the Indians starting all the way back with John Hart...Look at Bill Walsh/Bill Parcells...Hell, look at how many people Theo lost, he lost Hoyer and McLeod for the love of god...these things happen and it's all a sign of a very healthy and vibrant management team. If Hazen/Sawdaye were that good (and everything I've read says they were...and really what else do we really go by other than what we've read) then by definition of being a good executive it means they would have also hired good people underneath them and groomed them to one day take their place...So we can't have it both ways, if they're good then by definition there's a good succession plan just waiting to happen. And DD is a very successful MLB executive whom i think we should all have confidence in to restructure the front office. Let's face it, the "GM" title w/ the Sox was just a fancy title for "Asst. GM"...Everyone knows it, so i'm guessing any restructure is to streamline the reporting and share responsibilities vs. just having one "GM" and a bunch of other folks who probably carried close to the same responsibility as the GM did...Just a thought
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Post by notguilty on Oct 25, 2016 6:47:35 GMT -5
DD is a big boy, he'll be fine. This ain't his first rodeo. He'll bring in his own boyz. I agree that he doesn't really need a fake GM.
The Red Sox, pushed by their fans, have decided that they want to go in a different direction. The last run was pretty good. Let's see how this era goes. I know I'm not looking forward to it (the team building strategy that is - I'll enjoy the kids until they all get traded).
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Oct 25, 2016 7:11:53 GMT -5
Here is DD record a GM/Head of Baseball Ops...Overall he has had 7 playoff appearances, 3 pennants and one world series in 28 years. That seems pretty meh to me.
Record as general manager[edit] Team Year Regular Season Post Season Won Lost Win % Finish Result MON 1988 41 40 .506 3rd in NL East - MON 1989 81 81 .500 4th in NL East - MON 1990 85 77 .525 3rd in NL East - MON 1991 64 81 .441 Left midseason - MON Total 271 279 .493 FLA 1993 64 98 .395 6th in NL East - FLA 1994 51 64 .443 5th in NL East - FLA 1995 67 76 .469 4th in NL East - FLA 1996 80 82 .494 3rd in NL East - FLA 1997 92 70 .568 2nd in NL East Defeated Cleveland Indians in 1997 World Series. FLA 1998 54 108 .333 5th in NL East - FLA 1999 64 98 .395 5th in NL East - FLA 2000 79 82 .491 3rd in NL East - FLA 2001 76 86 .469 4th in NL East - FLA Total 627 764 .451 1 playoff appearance, 1 pennant and 1 World Series title DET 2002 55 100 .355 5th in AL Central - DET 2003 43 119 .265 5th in AL Central - DET 2004 72 90 .444 4th in AL Central - DET 2005 71 91 .438 4th in AL Central - DET 2006 95 67 .586 2nd in AL Central Lost to St. Louis Cardinals in 2006 World Series. DET 2007 88 74 .543 2nd in AL Central - DET 2008 74 88 .457 5th in AL Central - DET 2009 86 77 .528 2nd in AL Central - DET 2010 81 81 .500 3rd in AL Central - DET 2011 95 67 .586 1st in AL Central Lost to Texas Rangers in 2011 ALCS. DET 2012 88 74 .543 1st in AL Central Lost to San Francisco Giants in 2012 World Series. DET 2013 93 69 .574 1st in AL Central Lost to Boston Red Sox in 2013 ALCS. DET 2014 90 72 .556 1st in AL Central Lost to Baltimore Orioles in 2014 ALDS. DET 2015 60 69 .486 5th in AL Central Released on August 4 DET Total 989 1054 .484 5 playoff appearances and 2 pennants BOS 2016 93 69 .574 1st in AL East Lost to Cleveland Indians in 2016 ALDS. Total 1867 2117 .473 7 playoff appearances, 3 pennants and 1 World Series title
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 25, 2016 8:17:51 GMT -5
And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine.
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Post by notguilty on Oct 25, 2016 8:49:53 GMT -5
And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. People may say that, and they do. But what matters, really, is whether ownership believes it. It appears they do - and in fairness, I can't say they're entirely wrong. There's a powerful, yankee-like "win now every year or bust" contingent in sox-fandom - even on this esteemed site. Let alone the media, which helps build a lot of that sentiment. The owners respond that. That's why DD is here.
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