SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Offseason front office thread (10/16: Hazen to AZ)
|
Post by grandsalami on Oct 25, 2016 8:59:25 GMT -5
And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. Actually it's true. See the last time the FO/ownership talked about a bridge year publicly
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Oct 25, 2016 9:03:39 GMT -5
Here is DD record a GM/Head of Baseball Ops...Overall he has had 7 playoff appearances, 3 pennants and one world series in 28 years. That seems pretty meh to me. It may seem meh without context. He was hired as the first GM of the expansion Marlins in 1993, and took over the worst team I'd ever seen in 2003. Those teams got to the World Series in four and three years, respectively. I'm not even a huge defender of Dombrowski, and I didn't like most of the major moves he made this year. And I don't know if it makes sense to build a team in 2017 using 1997 or even 2007 methods. But his track record of success is legitimate.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Oct 25, 2016 9:03:58 GMT -5
I think Sawdaye will wind up in Arizona. He knows his opinions will probably carry a lot more clout with Hazen then it would with Dombrowski. Wren is probably the only person whose opinion carries a lot of clout with Dombrowski. I don't think the Sox will wind up having an assistant GM type. I don't think I'll every truly understand why Henry has been so willing to give so much autonomy to Dombrowski but would never truly give Theo that same autonomy? It's almost as if Dombrowski is a grown up and Theo is just a teenager. Can't give him that kind of power. It's almost like Nick Cafardo logic. Losing Sawdaye would be a big blow. The issue wasn't Henry, it was Larry Lucchino and Theo. Sure you can say why not get rid of Larry and keep Theo, but Theo wanted to move on. I mean the Red Sox fans would have never gone for the type of rebuild that Theo did with Cubs. That's why I can't wait to see how Theo does over the long term for Cubs. Are Cub fans going to be OK with a couple of bridge years to rebuild rotation a few years from now? Theo does have a great long term plan, but it doesn't play well in markets that want to win year in and year out. DD on the other hand has shown he can produce winning teams year after year, without a bridge year or two. Owners want to make money and bridge years mean the team is going to lose a lot of money. In general I think fans are overrating Theo and underrating DD. They are two of the best in the game. The funny thing is that the Red Sox actually did have several rebuilding bridge years when they finished in last for 3 out of 4 seasons. There is no escaping the pain of letting your young players struggle before thriving.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 25, 2016 9:29:02 GMT -5
I tweeted this too, but FWIW, the Red Sox have done a very good job of retaining FO talent in the past decade or so. Even despite losing the likes of Byrnes, Hoyer, McLeod (how the hell is he not a GM yet?), and more I can't think of, they had a nice little stockpile of folks they retained for longer than seemed reasonable. With a new prez of BB ops coming in, staying for a year to help with the transition, then moving on if it made sense is actually not that crazy sounding. I don't think it's a matter of everyone trying to get the hell away from Dombrowski necessarily. Who has left that hasn't gotten a promotion, save for maybe Sawdaye who was choosing between the same(-ish) position in both spots? And yes, Hazen got a promotion even though the title is the same, before anyone jumps in with that one.
Remember, most of these guys who are leaving have been in the front office in significant positions for more last-place seasons than playoff seasons. Think about that for a second.
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on Oct 25, 2016 10:21:52 GMT -5
|
|
redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,632
Member is Online
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 25, 2016 11:21:40 GMT -5
Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. Actually it's true. See the last time the FO/ownership talked about a bridge year publicly It may be true and I'm sure it is, but how did building a bloated overpaid underachieving team help ticket sales and NESN ratings and generate interest in 2012, 2014, and 2015? It didn't. Here's the thing I keep coming back to. I remember Dan Duquette once relayed a story he was told that was along the lines of if you listen to what the fans in the bleachers want, sooner or later you will wind up being one of those fans sitting in the bleachers. I get trying to give the consumer what they say they want, but really what they really want are World Series championship caliber teams year in and year out, but if you're honest enough with them, yeah a big portion of the WEEI loud mouth caller types will balk, yet those same morons will be the first ones in line trying to build playoff tickets when the team does blossom. The consumer wants championship teams. That doesn't mean that the consumer knows how to build championship teams. If they did, why hire a GM? Why not just do a WEEI poll on what moves the Red Sox should make? Sort of like the gimmick the St. Louis Browns and Bill Veeck did years ago when he handed fans in the stands cards which voted upon what moves their beleaguered manager should be making.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 25, 2016 13:45:00 GMT -5
Losing Sawdaye would be a big blow. The issue wasn't Henry, it was Larry Lucchino and Theo. Sure you can say why not get rid of Larry and keep Theo, but Theo wanted to move on. I mean the Red Sox fans would have never gone for the type of rebuild that Theo did with Cubs. That's why I can't wait to see how Theo does over the long term for Cubs. Are Cub fans going to be OK with a couple of bridge years to rebuild rotation a few years from now? Theo does have a great long term plan, but it doesn't play well in markets that want to win year in and year out. DD on the other hand has shown he can produce winning teams year after year, without a bridge year or two. Owners want to make money and bridge years mean the team is going to lose a lot of money. In general I think fans are overrating Theo and underrating DD. They are two of the best in the game. The funny thing is that the Red Sox actually did have several rebuilding bridge years when they finished in last for 3 out of 4 seasons. There is no escaping the pain of letting your young players struggle before thriving. So just because we sucked in those years, you think they were bridge years like Theo wanted? Those weren't bridge years in the Theo sense. Moves were made to compete and it just didn't work out. For example 2015, Theo idea of a bridge year is to play the young guys, not go out acquire Porcello, Ramirez and Sandoval. They tried to compete and it backfired. Theo would have signed a bunch of guys to one or two year deals and played the young guys. If they competed great, if not he would have flipped those players at deadline . For the record I'm not against bridge years in the Theo sense, it just seems most fans and ownership are against it.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 25, 2016 13:51:15 GMT -5
Actually it's true. See the last time the FO/ownership talked about a bridge year publicly It may be true and I'm sure it is, but how did building a bloated overpaid underachieving team help ticket sales and NESN ratings and generate interest in 2012, 2014, and 2015? It didn't. Here's the thing I keep coming back to. I remember Dan Duquette once relayed a story he was told that was along the lines of if you listen to what the fans in the bleachers want, sooner or later you will wind up being one of those fans sitting in the bleachers. I get trying to give the consumer what they say they want, but really what they really want are World Series championship caliber teams year in and year out, but if you're honest enough with them, yeah a big portion of the WEEI loud mouth caller types will balk, yet those same morons will be the first ones in line trying to build playoff tickets when the team does blossom. The consumer wants championship teams. That doesn't mean that the consumer knows how to build championship teams. If they did, why hire a GM? Why not just do a WEEI poll on what moves the Red Sox should make? Sort of like the gimmick the St. Louis Browns and Bill Veeck did years ago when he handed fans in the stands cards which voted upon what moves their beleaguered manager should be making. I could be wrong, but aren't the majority of ticket sales done before season starts as soon as they go on sale? So for ticket sales what really matters is how good people think the team is going to do, not how well they actually do. I've never once bought a ticket from the Red Sox ticket counter, always from scalpers that buy them up as soon as they go on sale.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 25, 2016 14:22:50 GMT -5
Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. People may say that, and they do. But what matters, really, is whether ownership believes it. It appears they do - and in fairness, I can't say they're entirely wrong. There's a powerful, yankee-like "win now every year or bust" contingent in sox-fandom - even on this esteemed site. Let alone the media, which helps build a lot of that sentiment. The owners respond that. That's why DD is here. I understand, but: John Henry owns the team. He really shouldn't be letting fans and media make his decisions for him. Especially when those fans are demanding things that they think are going to make them happy, but ultimately are going to ruin the team. It's like giving a kid candy every five minutes to make him happy. How happy is he gonna be with diabetes?
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 25, 2016 14:23:34 GMT -5
Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. Actually it's true. See the last time the FO/ownership talked about a bridge year publicly Yeah people rioted. Many died. Can't upset the fanbase like that again.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 25, 2016 15:10:19 GMT -5
And as far as Red Sox fans never going for the rebuilding thing - that's silly. What did Red Sox fans go through in 2012, 2014, and 2015? Dead last place finishes and out of the playoff race by May. So how did that help NESN ratings? So if shortsighted Red Sox ownership was so damn scared of it, guess what they went through anyways? The rebuild that helped propel the Sox forward in 2016 was mainly that 2011 draft, Bogaerts, Pedroia, and Ortiz, and some good moves that worked out later on for Ben Cherington. Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. You think people tolerated an 86 year drought? That's a strange concept of toleration. With World Series victories comes different expectations, that's human nature. People like winning, and the ownership is acutely aware of that, and will have less patience for a rebuild than would otherwise have occurred.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Oct 25, 2016 15:12:36 GMT -5
The funny thing is that the Red Sox actually did have several rebuilding bridge years when they finished in last for 3 out of 4 seasons. There is no escaping the pain of letting your young players struggle before thriving. So just because we sucked in those years, you think they were bridge years like Theo wanted? Those weren't bridge years in the Theo sense. Moves were made to compete and it just didn't work out. For example 2015, Theo idea of a bridge year is to play the young guys, not go out acquire Porcello, Ramirez and Sandoval. They tried to compete and it backfired. Theo would have signed a bunch of guys to one or two year deals and played the young guys. If they competed great, if not he would have flipped those players at deadline . For the record I'm not against bridge years in the Theo sense, it just seems most fans and ownership are against it. They tried to hide the bridge years and even got a World Series win out of it, but they still had to transition to the extremely young team they have now. It was always going to be painful. They could even be in much better shape now if they did nothing but actually rebuild.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Oct 25, 2016 15:19:14 GMT -5
Yeah this is the dumbest thing people say. "Boston won't tolerate a rebuild". Boston will tolerate a 86 year championship drought but goddamnit if you don't sign some overpriced free agent this offseason who won't help the franchise anyway, people will riot in the streets? It's asinine. You think people tolerated an 86 year drought? That's a strange concept of toleration. With World Series victories comes different expectations, that's human nature. People like winning, and the ownership is acutely aware of that, and will have less patience for a rebuild than would otherwise have occurred. Of course we tolerated it. We showed up and cared year after year after year. In fact, I almost miss the wondering if they would ever win. People today have much less of an attention span though, and I have no idea how you win those fans over but I imagine going after those fans and keeping them interested is what will annoy us to no end.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 25, 2016 15:26:48 GMT -5
You think people tolerated an 86 year drought? That's a strange concept of toleration. With World Series victories comes different expectations, that's human nature. People like winning, and the ownership is acutely aware of that, and will have less patience for a rebuild than would otherwise have occurred. Of course we tolerated it. We showed up and cared year after year after year. In fact, I almost miss the wondering if they would ever win. People today have much less of an attention span though, and I have no idea how you win those fans over but I imagine going after those fans and keeping them interested is what will annoy us to no end. I have to disagree. I never tolerated being a Sox fan. I don't even know how I got here really, not being a native Mass. When I think of tolerate, I view it as a choice to put up with or not. I just know it was meant to be and I wouldn't have it any other way. Add: it was the 75 world series and Rice and Lynn and the players that got me hooked, and what a long, strange trip it's been
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Oct 25, 2016 15:29:53 GMT -5
Of course we tolerated it. We showed up and cared year after year after year. In fact, I almost miss the wondering if they would ever win. People today have much less of an attention span though, and I have no idea how you win those fans over but I imagine going after those fans and keeping them interested is what will annoy us to no end. I have to disagree. I never tolerated being a Sox fan. I don't even know how I got here really, not being a native Mass. When I think of tolerate, I view it as a choice to put up with or not. I just know it was meant to be and I wouldn't have it any other way. From the point of the team, the only thing they care about when we were "tolerating" them not winning was that we still went to games and watched them on tv.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Oct 25, 2016 15:35:39 GMT -5
I have to disagree. I never tolerated being a Sox fan. I don't even know how I got here really, not being a native Mass. When I think of tolerate, I view it as a choice to put up with or not. I just know it was meant to be and I wouldn't have it any other way. From the point of the team, the only thing they care about when we were "tolerating" them not winning was that we still went to games and watched them on tv. That's true, but I think i know you just a little bit, and it was and will continue to be worth it.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Oct 25, 2016 16:01:32 GMT -5
From the point of the team, the only thing they care about when we were "tolerating" them not winning was that we still went to games and watched them on tv. That's true, but I think i know you just a little bit, and it was and will continue to be worth it. Of course. But we're not the fans that they focus on obtaining and keeping around. They can take us for granted and we'll still be here.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,911
|
Post by ericmvan on Oct 25, 2016 16:10:54 GMT -5
Nick Piecoro @nickpiecoro Source confirms Red Sox exec Amiel Sawdaye will become Dbacks' senior vice president and assistant general manager. Alex has a nice piece on him.The first thing that happened when the Sox hired me was that Amiel, already promoted to a job with a title, sent me all of that college data. I continued working on college hitting stats for the draft until June, with Amiel as my contact. With he and Tom Tippett gone, there's now no one left that I worked with or knew, other than Bill James. That Eddie Romero has been promoted to Asst. GM (I'm guessing DDo will add GM to his title) should back some people off from the ledge.
|
|
|
Post by bosox81 on Oct 25, 2016 16:37:51 GMT -5
They never should've let Theo go. And they should've had more faith in Cherington. The way he built the 2013 team with complete autonomy was outstanding.
I'm hating the DD era more and more. This is not 1997.
|
|
|
Post by GyIantosca on Oct 25, 2016 18:45:19 GMT -5
I know that turnover is good. I would do whatever it took to keep Romero jr is a rock star in international. I love how Rickard does the drafts. The last two have been impressive to me. I also like Bannister I noticed a huge difference in the pitching when he helped out. The rumor about Wren was a joke. Please him getting the job over those guys lol. There's good guys working under Hazen. Also I here are plenty of people who would come to Boston and leave there jobs in a hurry. I will quote my self, Romero is a rock star.
|
|
|
Post by artfuldodger on Oct 25, 2016 21:22:03 GMT -5
Could anyone see Terry Ryan coming and playing the Jerry Dipoto role from last year. Do a detailed assessment of the organization and stay if he does not get another position?
|
|
|
Post by adiospaydro2005 on Oct 26, 2016 6:57:14 GMT -5
Could anyone see Terry Ryan coming and playing the Jerry Dipoto role from last year. Do a detailed assessment of the organization and stay if he does not get another position? I don't get that philosophy of opening up the Red Sox kimono for some outsider to come in to evaluate the organization's strengths and weaknesses. If they dont believe they capabilities to do it in-house then they should go out and hire a quality control person to do it full time as it should be a regular process. Ryan does not have a good track record to qualify for that position.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Oct 27, 2016 8:23:38 GMT -5
I nominate Tim Tebow for GM.
|
|
|
Post by Coreno on Oct 27, 2016 11:34:49 GMT -5
I nominate Tim Tebow for GM. Oh, come on, please be realistic here. You know he isn't open to a position change. He is a quarterback baseball player.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Oct 27, 2016 15:23:15 GMT -5
I nominate Tim Tebow for GM. Tebow once beat the Steelers, I'd nominate him for that as well if GM stands for Goddamn Macho.
|
|
|