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Joey Votto
Oct 15, 2016 17:17:41 GMT -5
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Post by blizzards39 on Oct 15, 2016 17:17:41 GMT -5
I don't think it would take that much to get him and he is exactly what the sox need. Should be the number one priority
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 15, 2016 17:25:37 GMT -5
I don't think it would take that much to get him and he is exactly what the sox need. Should be the number one priority I was going to tell you that it's a wicked long contract and you're getting his back nine, all of which is still true. Then I looked closer at his numbers and said yup, he'd be a good get. Even if he declines by a good deal, he'd be a pretty good hitter. Maybe he can be that rare type of hitter who ages well. Man those numbers are fantastic. I can't imagine that the Reds would let him go without getting some kind of bounty for him. I imagine Devers and Moncada would be the two guys they would target. The question is for the remainder of that contract how much better would he be than a guy like Devers down the road? I mean for the rest of the decade you'd expect Votto to be better but for 2020 and beyond you'd expect Devers at a much cheaper price tag to be better, yes? Maybe I shouldn't even mention names like Devers or Kopech (I'd guess that Moncada would be off the table probably?) and get too much into it because that would belong in a different forum? When you said it wouldn't take too much to get him, who are you thinking, and if you have to put the answer in a different forum so be it. I'd be interested in hearing about it.
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Post by Canseco on Oct 15, 2016 20:25:48 GMT -5
Nah. I'm good. It's okay to not try to win the offseason every year. Fill in bullpen holes, extend some of the younger guys, and hunker down. I like having payroll flexibility for a change.
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Joey Votto
Oct 15, 2016 23:29:50 GMT -5
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Post by telson13 on Oct 15, 2016 23:29:50 GMT -5
I'd prefer Votto to Encarnacion, because I think his skill set is much more likely to age well (avg/OBP with very good power vs. excellent power but a middling hit tool). However, Votto is a poor defender and as such really should DH. 7 years/$160M is too much to drop on a bat-only player when he's going to be 40 at the end of the deal, unless the Reds did a salary dump for some B-grade prospects and redundant major league pieces. I just don't see it happening. Love the tremendous hit tool and plus power, but not if it costs Devers, Moncada, Kopech, or even Basabe or Dalbec. At that point, if you're desperate for power (and I don't think they need it), just sign Bautista for 2+1 option at 40+20, and hold on the prospects. Devers may very well be providing similar production in 2020-2021 at 3% of the cost.
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Post by telson13 on Oct 15, 2016 23:36:22 GMT -5
Nah. I'm good. It's okay to not try to win the offseason every year. Fill in bullpen holes, extend some of the younger guys, and hunker down. I like having payroll flexibility for a change. That's basically exactly what I think. Beni will help replace some lost offense, and smart spending of the $25M AAV for Encarnacion could bring in 2-3 outstanding bullpen arms, with some left over. The rotation, with Buchholz as a 6 having 1a upside and Pomeranz likely a solid 3 out of the 5 spot should be much improved. Start extending the young guys, and see where Moncada/Devers/Kopech/Swihart/Owens/Johnson are by next fall. Keep that flexibility to continue extending young players, and spend big if someone truly worth it (Otani) comes along.
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Joey Votto
Oct 15, 2016 23:37:51 GMT -5
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Post by templeusox on Oct 15, 2016 23:37:51 GMT -5
It would be worth it just to see him wage war with the scribes. He doesn't suffer fools lightly. You'd get some great Speier pieces out of it, but he might strangle CHB.
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Joey Votto
Oct 15, 2016 23:44:06 GMT -5
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Post by m1keyboots on Oct 15, 2016 23:44:06 GMT -5
In a perfect world we'd get the perfect Votto. Imo I feel like his personality and the media wouldn't mix well, we all know how certain beat writers can spew the lovely vitriol. Last year I'd have thought Hanley was an uncoordinated bodybuilder who didn't care about anyone but himself. In reality he was a man off too a hot start in an unfamiliar position who crushed his shoulder running into the wall. Hustling. Now we have 850+ OPS and all is well
I think the need to make some moves and try to start laying the groundwork to keep the "sky is the limit knock on wood" outfield together, rather than sign Joey and his OBP for 30 mil per nine (?) Years. I can see maybe going after someone like Chris Davis? This is of course a perfect world.
Ill admit when reading posts like this sometimes I believe in the possibility only because our offensive ability is skyrocketing, and that maybe we should keep it from a "plateau". Hopefully there are ways we can go at DH/1b and it work out without doing what the angels dd with Pujols basically.
Let me just throw these names out there and I'm sorry mods. Chris Davis/Chris Carter
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 16, 2016 7:28:49 GMT -5
If the Red Sox has any chance of getting Joey Votto without giving up a huge package (and by huge I mean moronic), I'd be pretty offended if they don't do it.
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Post by ryan24 on Oct 16, 2016 7:35:21 GMT -5
Telson has it right. Short term strengthen the bench with a player like pearce maybe, and add some bullpen help. Long term start signing the young core guys to long term contracts. We do not need votto's contract and poor defense
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 16, 2016 7:57:53 GMT -5
People are complaining about Encarnacion?
EE would have a 5 year contract 2021 at most. Votto's contract extends 3 more years beyond that. Ohh and EE's swing is made for Fenway Park and has already performed in the AL East.
24 million a year for a DH? That's too high.
Say no to Votto.
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Post by p23w on Oct 16, 2016 10:11:20 GMT -5
Actually, Votto makes all the sense in the world.... for the Blue Jays.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 16, 2016 10:53:28 GMT -5
People are complaining about Encarnacion? EE would have a 5 year contract 2021 at most. Votto's contract extends 3 more years beyond that. Ohh and EE's swing is made for Fenway Park and has already performed in the AL East. 24 million a year for a DH? That's too high. Say no to Votto. Add about 75 points of OBP to Encarnacion and you'd get Votto, who also has a swing made for Fenway.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 16, 2016 12:04:47 GMT -5
Votto would be a really interesting idea if you had no hope of filling 1B with an elite bat any time soon. Which is the position many teams find themselves in -- as I noted in the main off-season thread, 1B, LF, and DH are much weaker now than 2B, 3B, SS, and CF.
Speaking hypothetically, if you happened to have the probable best hitting prospect in the minors ready for AA, and he was also a plus defender at 3B, then trading for Votto would make no sense at all. Hypothetically, mind you.
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Joey Votto
Oct 16, 2016 12:37:01 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 16, 2016 12:37:01 GMT -5
People are complaining about Encarnacion? EE would have a 5 year contract 2021 at most. Votto's contract extends 3 more years beyond that. Ohh and EE's swing is made for Fenway Park and has already performed in the AL East. 24 million a year for a DH? That's too high. Say no to Votto. Add about 75 points of OBP to Encarnacion and you'd get Votto, who also has a swing made for Fenway. Add 3 more years and a couple million a year and it's not worth the difference. Also, Votto has put up these numbers in the NL, who we both can admit is the inferior league.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 16, 2016 12:41:14 GMT -5
Telson has it right. Short term strengthen the bench with a player like pearce maybe, and add some bullpen help. Long term start signing the young core guys to long term contracts. We do not need votto's contract and poor defense The guy you want for the bench is Sean Rodriguez (I seem to recall saying that already). Amusing fact: Edwin Enarnacion bWAR / 650, 2016: 3.4 Sean Rodriguez bWAR / 650, 2016: 3.4. Someone will give Pearce a chance to be an everyday 1B. Mets, Rangers, Indians, Mariners, Marlins, Cardinals, and maybe the Nationals. It is possible that you make yourself better if you commit to Sandoval at 3B, trade Shaw, and sign Pearce for 2 years. But it's by no means certain, and you'd like to leave open the option of Shaw at 3B and Sandoval at 1B (which I actually think is probably the way to go).
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Post by p23w on Oct 16, 2016 12:55:15 GMT -5
Add about 75 points of OBP to Encarnacion and you'd get Votto, who also has a swing made for Fenway. Add 3 more years and a couple million a year and it's not worth the difference. Also, Votto has put up these numbers in the NL, who we both can admit is the inferior league. Votto is on record as saying he would like to play in his home town (Toronto). Votto has been pitched around for years. Pretty difficult to pitch around him on the Blue Jay roster. Blue Jays are desperate for a middle of the order left handed bat. If Encarnacion signs elsewhere (and the Jays get a first round pick), will the new CBA permit the trading of a draft pick? Be careful what you wish for. Encarnacion is a decent fit for the Red Sox, but you could really open up a can of worms on the Votto front with that move.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Oct 16, 2016 17:45:32 GMT -5
Telson has it right. Short term strengthen the bench with a player like pearce maybe, and add some bullpen help. Long term start signing the young core guys to long term contracts. We do not need votto's contract and poor defense The guy you want for the bench is Sean Rodriguez (I seem to recall saying that already). Amusing fact: Edwin Enarnacion bWAR / 650, 2016: 3.4 Sean Rodriguez bWAR / 650, 2016: 3.4. Someone will give Pearce a chance to be an everyday 1B. Mets, Rangers, Indians, Mariners, Marlins, Cardinals, and maybe the Nationals. It is possible that you make yourself better if you commit to Sandoval at 3B, trade Shaw, and sign Pearce for 2 years. But it's by no means certain, and you'd like to leave open the option of Shaw at 3B and Sandoval at 1B (which I actually think is probably the way to go). For the life of me, I don't understand in the slightest any serious suggestion of Sandoval at 1B. I don't want a short, heavyweight guy there who may have a credit card vertical AND not be able to bend over well for low throws. If it's Shaw and Sandoval, it has to be Shaw at 1B, Sandoval at 3B. But frankly, I think DD gets rid of this issue before the spring. I don't think Shaw and Sandoval are both on the 25 man at the start of next season unless Shaw is seen as some kind of complementary utility guy to Holt.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 16, 2016 19:43:46 GMT -5
Votto's contract is a real killer. Anyway, good fodder for the Trade Subforum.
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Joey Votto
Oct 16, 2016 20:26:11 GMT -5
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Post by doctorduck21 on Oct 16, 2016 20:26:11 GMT -5
Votto is one of my favorite players but I would be worried about the cost. He would definitely improve the major league team. However his cost will be pretty heavy. Thinking at a minimum of Devers/Kopech+ a good deal more.
I would be in favor of smaller moves this off season and saving the big moves until 2017 or 2018. Mainly the bullpen is my concern.
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Post by marshaevelyn on Oct 16, 2016 21:32:53 GMT -5
I like Votto but Hanley appears to have settled in there as a the DH looks to be Sandoval's, for obvious financial and defensive reasons. The offense was shown to be quite vulnerable as the season progressed to where basically 4 players were carrying the load in September. I was pleading with Cherrington to make the Mets an offer for Murphy two years ago and I think the Nats could be persuaded if given a good package. Murphy has played in a big market, fields 3rd base better than any other infield position he has been assigned, is maybe the best pure LH hitter in the game, rarely Ks and had developed a power swing which would suite Fenway. I would be willing to give Bogaerts, Devers and Kopech for him considering Murphy is under contract for a few years, is not one to go DL and is in his prime. The down side would be Moncada would need to find another position. Let us also not forget X-man shall leave via FA shortly and Marrero could hold down SS along with Holt for the short term.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 18, 2016 6:20:43 GMT -5
I like Votto but Hanley appears to have settled in there as a the DH looks to be Sandoval's, for obvious financial and defensive reasons. The offense was shown to be quite vulnerable as the season progressed to where basically 4 players were carrying the load in September. I was pleading with Cherrington to make the Mets an offer for Murphy two years ago and I think the Nats could be persuaded if given a good package. Murphy has played in a big market, fields 3rd base better than any other infield position he has been assigned, is maybe the best pure LH hitter in the game, rarely Ks and had developed a power swing which would suite Fenway. I would be willing to give Bogaerts, Devers and Kopech for him considering Murphy is under contract for a few years, is not one to go DL and is in his prime. The down side would be Moncada would need to find another position. Let us also not forget X-man shall leave via FA shortly and Marrero could hold down SS along with Holt for the short term. Murphy for Xander, Kopech, and Devers? Are you on drugs?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Oct 18, 2016 6:25:58 GMT -5
Add 3 more years and a couple million a year and it's not worth the difference. Also, Votto has put up these numbers in the NL, who we both can admit is the inferior league. Votto is on record as saying he would like to play in his home town (Toronto). Votto has been pitched around for years. Pretty difficult to pitch around him on the Blue Jay roster. Blue Jays are desperate for a middle of the order left handed bat. If Encarnacion signs elsewhere (and the Jays get a first round pick), will the new CBA permit the trading of a draft pick? Be careful what you wish for. Encarnacion is a decent fit for the Red Sox, but you could really open up a can of worms on the Votto front with that move. Good point about why Votto's OBP could be so much significantly higher than EE. Encarnacion can't be pitched around because he's in a great lineup. Votto can take first base all day while in the Reds lineup. Encarnacion still chases more pitches, but the numbers are really screwed since both players have been playing in two very different environments in their careers. Between the leagues they play in and the competitive and non competitive teams they have played for.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 18, 2016 7:46:25 GMT -5
I'm with Ancient on this one. I can't see Sandoval @ first, or IMO even DH. We are really rolling the dice here penciling him into our starting line-up. With Shaw and Leon coming WAY down to earth, that's 2 more huge if's. Though I now have confidence in him, even JBJ made his year with a few very good streaks.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 18, 2016 17:44:42 GMT -5
I like Votto but Hanley appears to have settled in there as a the DH looks to be Sandoval's, for obvious financial and defensive reasons. The offense was shown to be quite vulnerable as the season progressed to where basically 4 players were carrying the load in September. I was pleading with Cherrington to make the Mets an offer for Murphy two years ago and I think the Nats could be persuaded if given a good package. Murphy has played in a big market, fields 3rd base better than any other infield position he has been assigned, is maybe the best pure LH hitter in the game, rarely Ks and had developed a power swing which would suite Fenway. I would be willing to give Bogaerts, Devers and Kopech for him considering Murphy is under contract for a few years, is not one to go DL and is in his prime. The down side would be Moncada would need to find another position. Let us also not forget X-man shall leave via FA shortly and Marrero could hold down SS along with Holt for the short term. Just no on so many levels. Besides getting badly ripped off in a deal for Murphy, the idea of SS being manned by Holt (he would not be a good defensive SS and he's a big step down offensively from Murphy) and by Marrero who might not be able to hit .175 in the majors makes no sense at all. Marrero is not a major league player. And the Red Sox still have Bogaerts under contract for three more seasons, so it's not like he's leaving immediately.
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Post by joshmoody23 on Oct 19, 2016 10:02:30 GMT -5
You know, I am not the biggest Votto fan but the idea does make sense. Lefty hitter, elite defensively and high OBP. If you're worried about the financials, there can be something done with that. Including Joey Votto or Clay Buchholz in any trade cuts the payroll pretty good. I know Clay is only 13.5 but that would say for almost a year of Votto. If they were willing to take Pablo, the idea could make sense. Its EXTREMELY unlikely but I am of the mind that the DH or 1B next year will be someone not in the organization. I still think EE has a good chance, I also think Carlos Beltran is an option on a 1 year deal. I do not think Pablo or Hanley is locked in at 1B/DH. I am still not sure Pablo is in the plans. For those that think Travis Shaw fits heavily into next years roster are mistaken. IF i was a betting man, I would say he's not in the organization next year, if he is it will be in AAA or as the last piece of the bench. Brock Holt would start over Shaw at any position he plays
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